All things Solar (merged threads)

[flappist]

So what if they increase the price of electricity during peak demand and lower it during low demand as in smart meters?

Then they align the rebate to the energy price meaning you get stuff all for it during the middle of the day but lots for it from 6-8am and from 6-11pm.

I used to work in the power industry, they were nasty predatory bastards then and I am pretty sure nothing has changed.
The solar push is for 2 reasons only:
1) To appease the greens who are in a temporary position of power.
2) The put off building new coal based power stations as they are expensive and they wish to waste the money on more important things like building new offices for ATO or runnig broadband between Birdsville and Wilcania.

I will go alternative energy only when I can be 100% disconnect from the grid.

But you are right, no one can predict the future.....but then if you swim in a creek full of crocs you may not get eaten........

[poppa smurf]

as i say I'm pretty well covered and if you do the maths you will be as well

if you currently use, say 12 kw per 24 hour day and if you install a given size system that will easily deliver in excess of that 12 kw within a given daylight time frame then regardless of your usage or time of usage or cost of usage you are covered,

if the price rises beyond your production input then maybe, if you are able to, increase the size of the array until it equals out

the answer is all in the initial calculations, your usage history also add to this your feed in tariff from any given state and your financial position

you must get all the info (easily found within this thread) and tally it up then make an INFORMED decision yourself

I know the industry are a predatory lot, they will be very loathe indeed to forego the not inconsiderable profits that are forthcoming now, and of course when the industry was sold to the conglomerates the government of the time gave a "profit amount" guarantee which must be honoured by law and will be paid in a compensatory form by tax payers if this amount is not continuous and ongoing, including a certain amount of "growth" also guaranteed, if this yield amount falls then we will be forced to pay out yet again

all in all a very sweet deal indeed.......for the conglomerates

I pay two lots of power, one for my business at a phenomenal rate but very low usage, home at a reasonable rate and higher usage, my business is tax deductible but hardly worth claiming, my home is not tax deductible and open to extortion from the energy providers, my business is easily offset by "deductibles"

if I install solar on my workshop it is deductible tax wise but my house input is frowned upon and is taxed to the hilt ??????????????????.......hardly fair

higher energy accounts and rises in cost of living do not affect the rich, only the poor and I am sure the powers that be will find ways to continue to crucify the poor

in the meantime i placed solar....I am winning for now, who knows what the next step from the global predators will be to keep me down

the next generation of PV systems are already starting to hit the market.....the numbers produced from these are astronomical, the price very low......I cant spruke the numbers, even though I know them, as I have no evidence as yet of actual production figures or cost, I have made many searches but the documentation is very well hidden

suffice to say the next gen of solar will leave these current systems way behind and make them the dinosaurs they are.......we are basically in the infancy of self power production with many lessons to be learnt, in the meantime we can only use what is at hand and use our brain in an effort to contain our expenses

the new ones may very never properly hit the market, as we all know the almighty dollar is king and MUST rule regardless of cost to humanity, profit must and will be maintained at all costs!!!

[DJL351]

We've got a 3.04Kw system on a SMA 4Kw inverter.

http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp;jsessio...fm?userid=1701

We did not have enough roof space to put all panels on the same roof face, so we had to split 8 and 8 over an East(ish) and North(ish) facing roof.
My olds had theirs done the same day and it is only now, as the sun gets a little lower, that they are beating me on output. (their 3.04Kw system is all on a North facing roof face)

We both got in just as the state gov canned the FIT of 40c. In WA you get 47c for each Kw pushed in to the grid, normal non-smart metered power is 19.9c (rumoured to increase in July to 22.5c).

A house of two adults and one 2year old we average 12-14 units a day. So we export up to 5 units a day back in to the grid. (after changing some habits)

Prior to solar, we were using up to 25 units a day. with a bill being at least $275.
Since Sept/Oct 2011 I have only received credits. For us, it has been a great decision.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

if you currently use, say 12 kw per 24 hour day and if you install a given size system that will easily deliver in excess of that 12 kw within a given daylight time frame then regardless of your usage or time of usage or cost of usage you are covered,

No, you didn't read what he said.

To paraphrase:

What's the point spending all this money propping up another govco scheme when it could quite possibly end up being earning 5c/kw through the day when you pay 70c/kw at night.

The excessive "upfronts" all of a sudden don't make much sense.

[poppa smurf]

ah! "after changing some habits"...LOL!......well done

I found once we, and a lot of friends of ours, had the array installed we all started to "watch" our power usage and questioning the energy retailers for a "better deal"

there is no single answer to the solar question, if anyone else can do what you did then the outcome, I think, would be very pleasing!.....not easy raising kids in todays economic environment

we cant beat them but by hell we can keep them busy trying to think up new ways of keeping us down!

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by Scott

No, you didn't read what he said.

To paraphrase:

What's the point spending all this money propping up another govco scheme when it could quite possibly end up being earning 5c/kw through the day when you pay 70c/kw at night.

The excessive "upfronts" all of a sudden don't make much sense.

speculation of what may be or what may not be is easy,

I could just as easy say that I MAY be very well be paid $150 per kw in the next few years and draw nothing from the grid.....solar would be very attractive then isn't it!!

I deal with what is here and now not what maybe or what someone dreams up.....no-one can foretell what is to be

read into my answer what you will.......energy supply is a 24 hour thing, solar is not!

I already gave my answer!.....I'm not clairvoyant!

[ute83]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

these small "add on" arrays are cheap.....1.52 kw currently $2,999 and falling, I can easily add two of these systems on different sheds

You only get the rebate once, so if you want to increase your systems capacity it will cost you more. Any additional panels will cost me $750 installed, each, Then perhaps an upgrade to the invertor plus labor equals big dollars.

[ute83]

And then they can increase our supply charges whether or not we buy electricity.

[comagutsa]

Originally Posted by DJL351

We've got a 3.04Kw system on a SMA 4Kw inverter.

http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp;jsessio...fm?userid=1701

We did not have enough roof space to put all panels on the same roof face, so we had to split 8 and 8 over an East(ish) and North(ish) facing roof.
My olds had theirs done the same day and it is only now, as the sun gets a little lower, that they are beating me on output. (their 3.04Kw system is all on a North facing roof face)

We both got in just as the state gov canned the FIT of 40c. In WA you get 47c for each Kw pushed in to the grid, normal non-smart metered power is 19.9c (rumoured to increase in July to 22.5c).

A house of two adults and one 2year old we average 12-14 units a day. So we export up to 5 units a day back in to the grid. (after changing some habits)

Prior to solar, we were using up to 25 units a day. with a bill being at least $275.
Since Sept/Oct 2011 I have only received credits. For us, it has been a great decision.

who, what and how etc about your system please

[DJL351]

Originally Posted by flappist

There is a lot of good info here but remember who you are dealing with. The rebates and credits can disappear instantly and energy companies are no different to petrol companies. Solar only works for part of the day and does not contribute to base load. Once the solar input is high enough that it interferes with the operational efficiency of the coal systems, that is, starts to increase costs there will be some sort of excuse and they will nail you all to a cross.

Anyone who believes they won't and hold the interest of the people foremost should look at the last couple of LPG threads and read about the carbon tax and GST.

I'm not sure I understand? Maybe it is different from state to state but in WA I have a contract that states for ten years I will get a minimum of 40c FIT for my solar, plus (currently 7c) from the energy supplier.
So for the next 9 years I am going to get at least 47c per KW I throw back.

Yes, they can continue to pump up the base price per unit - and they will regardless of solar or not. WA is rumoured to increase 3/4c per unit as of July 1st to 22.5c (remembering they only give us 7c per unit produced).

What happens in 9 years, happens in 9 years. If by then they cut the FIT to zero and we get nothing from the energy company, I will still be off setting my daily usage by about 18 units a day.

Originally Posted by Scott

This is the #1 reason I haven't taken the step. It all makes sense, it all looks possible, attractive and feasible but I just don't trust the bastards.

The only way I can see to commit and "guarantee" yourself a result is to worry about kw, not dollars. And in doing so, I need to hunt northward of 10kw... ouch.

I am interested to see what happens to the price of solar installs in Europe though, it could follow the footsteps of so many other Government initiatives and drive the prices down to well below pre-rebate prices.

Still sitting on hands...

If the FIT is contracted like it is in WA then you'd be fine. If there is not locked in contract, I completely understand your concern.

Most of the 'good' Solar companies in WA have shut up shop, leaving just the cowboys around that are talking crap....

On my numbers, my 3.04Kw system should have paid itself off just inside the 10 years of the FIT contract.

I was sitting on my hands, waiting to see what the prices etc did, it was the killing of the FIT that forced my hand and as I've said in another post, I'm glad I took it on.

[poppa smurf]

the price that I quoted is cash from an online solar sales site.....no rebate included.....I've used my rebate and the sales team issued the same quote even after I informed them of such

after posting that quote I found a cheaper one again......but that varies from state to state so once again do your homework

still deciding to go ahead or not on two 1.5 kw on two other sheds

the way the solar panels prices are falling within a few years they will be much cheaper than now!

if I bought the same system that I have installed now the difference in price is some $4,000.00 cheaper.......from the same company, I have not shopped around much but I'm sure I could get it down more

my additional panels were $700 each, I bought two!.....R.E.C. 250 watts

thousands of dollars can be saved by simply shopping around........but remember to stay with reputable companies and reputable panels

my infeed tariff is guaranteed, contracted at $0.50c per kilowatt until 2025

even if they double my current energy charge to $0.46c per kilowatt I am still in front

my system will be paid off in around 6 years

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by ute83

And then they can increase our supply charges whether or not we buy electricity.

this is possible but once again speculation......I spoke to my energy retailer and got mine reduced after stating I was going to Origin energy as well as 15% early payment reduction and a $0.05c reduction in energy charge and they increased my FIT from $0.44c per kilowatt to $0.50c per kilowatt

[Scott]

Originally Posted by DJL351

If the FIT is contracted like it is in WA then you'd be fine. If there is not locked in contract, I completely understand your concern.

Yes, you're right. But how many times has a Government lied, reneged or simply just walked away from a promise?

[poppa smurf]

a contract is exactly that.....a contract....mine goes until 2025

I think the energy providers will go the way of the water, one bill covers the supply charge and within that there is a "minimum usage"

whether the amount is used or not the account will still be there

who knows what will be in ten years, coal may be out and hydrogen generators or something else will be in!

[DJL351]

Originally Posted by comagutsa

who, what and how etc about your system please

Done by GSI Solar (now closed)
16 x Suntech 190W panels - split 8 + 8 over two roof faces.
Sunnyboy (SMA) 4000Kw Inverter with built in Blueetooth bouncing to a receiver in my file server uploading live to PVOutput via pvbeancounter software.

Deal was signed last week of June, signed off by Synergy 10 days later.
There was a delay in getting the new meter fitted. (close to a month)
Install happened in September. (took half a day)
Same crew did mum & dad's in the morning and ours in the arvo. (Kelmscott to Gosnells)

*Let me know if you need more info

Originally Posted by Scott

Yes, you're right. But how many times has a Government lied, reneged or simply just walked away from a promise?

Oh I agree. Hence the contract. If they (State Gov) bail on that then there will be a butt load of people in WA looking to sue.


*******************
In WA, once the inverter is signed off on, you are locked in to that size.
I have a 4Kw invertor, to upgrade that to a 5Kw would see a new 'contract' drawn up and I would loose my current 40c FIT.

Most good inverters will run up to 10% over powered. So I could run about 4.2/4.4Kw worth of panels off of a 4Kw inverter.
In fact some say under running the inverter makes them less efficent (say 1.54KW on a 2Kw inverter)

A lot of good info can be found on whirlpool.net.au in their solar/green section.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by DJL351

Oh I agree. Hence the contract. If they (State Gov) bail on that then there will be a butt load of people in WA looking to sue.

http://www.energymatters.com.au/inde...rticle_id=1509

The NSW Government has announced the state's solar feed-in tariff program, the Solar Bonus Scheme, is permanently closed to new applicants and the tariff rate will be significantly reduced for those solar households receiving or eligible for the original 60 cent tariff.

NSW Minister for Resources and Energy, Chris Hartcher, said customers eligible for the 60 cent tariff will see their tariff rate reduced to 40 cents from 1 July 2011 for the remainder of the Scheme. Those on the 20 cent tariff will see no change. The Government says it will be introducing legislation as soon as possible to implement this change.

The New South Wales' government's decision will likely help to significantly swell the number of people attending the "Solar's Last Chance Rally" next week to protest the handling of the Solar Bonus Scheme. The rally had already scheduled prior to today's announcement.

Organiser of the rally, Australian Solar Energy Society (AuSES) Chief Executive Officer, John Grimes said of the latest news, "The decision to roll back the feed-in tariff for existing solar customers is completely wrong. The public who invested in solar energy on the basis of a firm and legislated commitment from the NSW government now stand to be cheated out of those returns."

"These people are not making windfall profits as has been claimed - for windfall profits you have to look to the big 3 electricity retailers who are consistently making more money selling more coal fired electricity," said Mr. Grimes.

"The Australian Solar Energy Society is disappointed the NSW Government hasn’t acted immediately to introduce a 1 for 1 feed-in tariff ensuring NSW residents get paid at least the same rate for the electricity they produce as they buy from the grid. Under the current rate, clean solar power is subsidising highly polluting coal-fired power and that makes no sense. Big energy has won again."

National solar solutions provider Energy Matters' CEO, Jeremy Rich, expressed his disappointment with the decision and commented on the short term view and misinformation campaigns solar power has continually been a victim of.

"When our long term energy security is challenged by higher commodity prices can the big government/big business solution of over-dependence on undervalued coal and gas assets continue unchallenged? Solar has to be part of any sensible energy mix for our nation. With zero cost fuel - the Sun - solar provides certainty and protection."

"Further, it needs to be remembered that electricity users are currently being asked to pay upfront for the renewable energy benefits (STCs) which will be created over the next 15 years in relation to solar panels. All other capital works, be it a wind farm or network upgrades, are paid for over decades, consequently it is very hard for the Australian public to make an apples with apples comparison in relation to the cost and value of solar panel generated electricity vis-à-vis fossil fuel generated electricity," said Mr. Rich.

"Similarly with solar feed-in-tariffs remaining fixed, the most significant cost in real terms to electricity users is in the first year. The State or regulator could provide leadership by educating the market on the real cost of solar as a 40 year plus electricity generator, whilst also considering financial engineering support to ensure electricity users get the costs from solar electricity generation spread out over the long term and in line with the lifespan of the solar generator - the same way network upgrade costs are spread."

"We need to ensure Australians have access to clear information, enabling easy apples with apples comparisons to be made, and consequently good decision making."

In terms of the immediate future now the State Government's decision has been made, Mr. Rich agrees a 1 for 1 net feed in tariff is critical.

"The New South Wales solar PV industry has approximately 5,400 solar jobs on the line. In the not too distant future, the state will reach the point where the price of installing solar panels is cheaper than buying regular grid electricity - what is known as grid parity. We need clear consistent policy to sustain us to that point in time."

"The solar industry is not asking for more money. We are asking for a longer term sustainable policy and the NSW Government must act immediately to introduce a 1 for 1 feed-in tariff ensuring NSW residents get paid at least the same rate for the electricity they produce as they buy from the grid.”

Energy Matters announced earlier this week it will be a primary sponsor of next week's "Solar's Last Chance Rally". Affected solar households, businesses, industry and all solar supporters are encouraged to attend.

[poppa smurf]

yeah!.....far from over!.......it was talked about on the radio where it was stated that if "hardship" could be proven then the FIT's would remain, a loophole I would be chasing!

[MNM96]

Originally Posted by flappist

I will go alternative energy only when I can be 100% disconnect from the grid.

But you are right, no one can predict the future.....but then if you swim in a creek full of crocs you may not get eaten........

Really?

Buy some batteries and ask ergon to disconect. You can do it now, and have been able to do so for many years.

Reality, the closer the feed in systems become, the cheaper they become, meaning the sooner you can become self sufficient!

But you can do it today if you are serious.

[poppa smurf]

not hard to become self sufficient......pricey but can be done!

had a feller here reading the meters back in February, he reckons he knows a bloke who's done it using ex navy submarine batteries

wonder where he got them from and how much he paid for them

we used to be self sufficient using free light wind turbine and kero.......wouldn't be too keen to go back to those days

[Scott]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

not hard to become self sufficient......pricey but can be done!

Pricey is right. It's one thing to have the batteries, it's a whole other game to get them to recover in time, especially if you built in a few days autonomy.

[ute83]

Here in Vic or where we are anyway and you have power running past your property you WILL pay the supply charge whether or not you use any. At the moment it's about one dollar a day and goes up every time the power price goes up.

[poppa smurf]

I was speaking to the wife last night about this NSW debacle, she agreed with me about our first response, shut the solar off, they would not be getting it for nothing

second we would look at "off the grid" power, I'd build a dedicated shed for the batteries, charger and inverter.......I'd also buy a automatic start generator for cloudy days and high usage

I may give an off the grid installer a ring and just get a price, plenty of them around the place on outstations and stations......everything is available "off the shelf" may be able to buy components and build it myself...

I have the panels, only need the charger and genny and advice!!!

I've built systems for motorhomes, same principal only larger

I fail to see how a contract can be broken affecting such a large populace without a class action......everyone that I know has an ironclad contract for a minimum ten years of feed in tariff

interesting times ahead as the conglomerates fight to maintain the profit margin and the little man continues his efforts to keep costs down

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by ute83

Here in Vic or where we are anyway and you have power running past your property you WILL pay the supply charge whether or not you use any. At the moment it's about one dollar a day and goes up every time the power price goes up.

yes.....a hurdle that would need addressing, sewage is the same

[flappist]

Originally Posted by MNM96

Really?

Buy some batteries and ask ergon to disconect. You can do it now, and have been able to do so for many years.

Reality, the closer the feed in systems become, the cheaper they become, meaning the sooner you can become self sufficient!

But you can do it today if you are serious.

Still too expensive to do at this time. Aircon and stoves etc. draw too much and the batteries do not last long enough for their cost.

I once considered a LPG powered generator to offset the peaks but it was too sloppy. Lucky I didn't really after the recent events.

As an interesting note there was some political stuff last night about building larger generators at all the mills (not that there are many left) which may help a bit up here.

A mate of mine has a 20kw system with batteries and still has to use diesel to suppliment the load almost every day.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by flappist

Still too expensive to do at this time. Aircon and stoves etc. draw too much and the batteries do not last long enough for their cost.

I once considered a LPG powered generator to offset the peaks but it was too sloppy. Lucky I didn't really after the recent events.

As an interesting note there was some political stuff last night about building larger generators at all the mills (not that there are many left) which may help a bit up here.

A mate of mine has a 20kw system with batteries and still has to use diesel to suppliment the load almost every day.

Have you considered ceramic fuel cells (Bluegen) They are not self sufficent require gas - but although expensive to purchase and the technology is still new - they do have great output.

http://www.cfcl.com.au/BlueGen/

I have a solar system set up - but depending on what happens in future may look at Bluegen, or may even look at replcing high usuage items (such as all my halogen downlights with LED's)

[Scott]

^^ If my maths are right, that's about $0.23/kw.

Apart from being green/er, what's it good for?

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Scott

^^ If my maths are right, that's about $0.23/kw.

Apart from being green/er, what's it good for?

The technology is still very new - and I wouldnt recommend anyone go out and buy one just yet (needs to be researched thoroughly) But I put that up as an example of a different technology that allows us to either go off grid or generate your own power (without batteries, generators etc)

[poppa smurf]

a very good alternative and I for one thank you for adding to the thread in a positive manner

I had a look at the unit and it is attractive but as yet a bit expensive, what attracts me to solar is after the initial purchase the ongoing costs are minimal

as technology advances and these "gadgets" become more affordable and common I'm sure the price and operating costs will come down

[poppa smurf]

just got my first energy account since installing the array......quite happy......just shows it pays to talk to your energy provider.....and to do your homework

sorry for the quality but the system wont let me post any larger

I'm in substantial profit after paying for ALL energy use......

there are 4 lots of energy costs.....the first shows my old charge's and my second shows the negotiated new charges......0.05c per kilowatt cheaper

my FIT went from 0.44c per kilowatt up to $0.51c per kilowatt as well

my supply charge also FELL under the new negotiation

I also received a 15% "early bird" payment up from a 10% discount previously

so no more power bills and a substantial credit with lower charges as well

at this rate I will be very close to my $2,000.00 credit at the end of a 12 month period

it seems I CAN have it both ways

[xisled]

Nice work. Good to see you getting credit.