The Thailand Special Thread - New Developments/News

[CyberWasp]

I am from the other side of the camp, as in I don't tow anything so my logic if completely different.

If these vehicles are designed to tow and you don't use them to tow, then to me it is over engineered for what you are using it for so should have a good life span if looked after and be powerful enough to get you around.

You have to look at them as a blank canvas and make a few mods to suit what you are going to use them for.

I have done a Lap of Victoria and now Tasmania in mine and think they are an awesome touring vehicle as you can point to almost any location on a map, and go check the place out.

I think a lot of the haters have only driven to pov pack models but not the equivalent higher level ones which usually have a softer suspension and better cabin insulation. Small difference yes but noticeable.

I will concede that they sound like a sewing machine however, but getting down below 8lt per hundred on the highway for a vehicle that weighs as much as it does, is something that can't be complained about.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by prydey

I just figured most people could look it up themselves... Obviously not.

Here you go....
Check out these cars: https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/res...&sort=Odometer

18 out of 4.5k is plenty now, lol.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

18 out of 4.5k is plenty now, lol.

Yes it's a low number. Mostly because those that do own bi turbo fords don't want to sell them.

Don't confuse lack of evidence as evidence to the contrary.

[Citroënbender]

The smaller fours that are pressed to “perform” are unlikely to have physical space for components which make the larger fours more durable. I’m talking about bolt thread sizes, piston crown thickness, crank journal sizes for starters.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by prydey

Yes it's a low number. Mostly because those that do own bi turbo fords don't want to sell them.

Don't confuse lack of evidence as evidence to the contrary.

No confusion mate.

You said theres plenty of high milage bi turbos yet you cant show us evidence of it, seems like an opinion, not fact...

[whynot]

The irony of the last few pages of this thread is that, when there is a low stressed engine in a 4WD (aka 70 Series V8 Toyota LandCruiser) on the market ... most people cannot resist the urge to take it down to the local dyno shop and get the ECU retuned. Thereby completely undoing the conservative engineering in the vehicle.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

No confusion mate.

You said theres plenty of high milage bi turbos yet you cant show us evidence of it, seems like an opinion, not fact...

Not sure what to tell you. You're mind is made up already.

You asked for evidence that there were examples out there with high km. I showed you that evidence with the caveat that the engine hasn't been around long enough for there to be a large number.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about this engine. I own one now and it's brilliant in my opinion. I keep hearing about how it's a ticking time bomb by the usual suspects on here so just thought I'd ask for clarification on why they made those claims. Of course all they could provide was evidence of other engines lasting a long time. I'm not sure what that proves exactly.

If a small engine bothers you, then don't buy one. Simple.

If you think it's stressed to the point durability and reliability is affected, then prove it.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by prydey

Not sure what to tell you. You're mind is made up already.

You asked for evidence that there were examples out there with high km. I showed you that evidence with the caveat that the engine hasn't been around long enough for there to be a large number.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about this engine. I own one now and it's brilliant in my opinion. I keep hearing about how it's a ticking time bomb by the usual suspects on here so just thought I'd ask for clarification on why they made those claims. Of course all they could provide was evidence of other engines lasting a long time. I'm not sure what that proves exactly.

If a small engine bothers you, then don't buy one. Simple.

If you think it's stressed to the point durability and reliability is affected, then prove it.

You said 'plenty'

Who can know if it will be capable of high km? It hasn't been around long enough yet but there plenty of high km examples around.

Considering they sold/sell thousands every month of this engine, 18 from 4.5k on the now used market is not an indication of 'plenty' so your belief is nothing more than an opinion.
Compare that to the post 2017 2.8l Toyota powered vehicles of which there are hundreds on Carsales.
Even that I wouldnt consider difinitive.

I agree, time will tell if it has longevity, the same as if its a ticking time bomb, until then, both are opinions.
Thats all im suggesting.

[whynot]

I can see both sides of the argument about power output per displacement verses engine stress.

Regardless of how much people complain about the increasing "stress" inside an engine (whatever that actually means), the harsh reality is that manufacturers are being forced down that path by government regulations. A sturdy "lazy" (whatever that means) engine weights more than a lightweight "stressed" (whatever that means too) engine; assuming that same cost components are utilised. If a manufacturer can strip out 50kg in weight from the engine and transmission block, that can improve fuel efficiency by around 2-4%. And with the current Australian (and European) regulations, that can mean avoiding a significant financial penalty added to the sticker price.

Engine components and technology evolves as well. Designed correctly, a high kW per kg (weight), low displacement engine using newer, more advanced, materials could easily outlast an older generation engine. But, the customer's willingness to pay for this engine life is another story altogether.

I think it also pays to be mindful of the logical fallacy "post hoc ergo propter hoc", which means "after this, therefore because of this."

Sure, there are anecdotes of bi-turbo's failing. But we have no concept of what percentage of the fleet is failing, and what was the duty cycle placed on those engines. The only ones with the hard data will be Ford engineers. They may well look at the data, see that the number of failures is within their expectations, shrug their shoulders and move on. We really wont know the answer to long term durability until ... the long term has passed.

For all we know, the failure modes could have absolutely nothing to do with the mechanical stress (e.g. kW/displacement) inside the engine, but is another failure mode entirely.

[naddis01]

I'm not getting into this displacement argument however I thought I'd do a bit of a Carsales search. My criteria were XLT or Wildtrak Rangers from 2019 as they were the first models with the choice of 2.0 or 3.2/3.0 with over 200000km. The results 18 3.2s and 11 2.0s. What does this tell me? Not much really other than the sample size is too small to show any significant difference. So to use this as an argument either way about the reliability of a smaller or larger displacement motor is a little ridiculous.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by prydey

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about this engine. I own one now and it's brilliant in my opinion.

Prydey ... I wouldn't let the other comments get to you. Enjoy driving the Everest.

You might find this article interesting to read. It discusses the ins and outs of one possible failure mode.

The short version is to stick to the recommended oil change, ensure the correctly specified oil is used, avoid DPF burn offs, and change the timing belt at 150,000 km. The article also explains what a wet timing belt is.

It appears that this engine is used in the UK Transit van since 2016. If there is any subgroup of drivers who abuse their engines; Transit van drivers would have to be it.

https://www.allthingsmotoringinterna...king-time-bomb

You will note, the failure mode mentioned has SFA to do with the power output per engine displacement.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

I am from the other side of the camp, as in I don't tow anything so my logic if completely different.

If these vehicles are designed to tow and you don't use them to tow, then to me it is over engineered for what you are using it for so should have a good life span if looked after and be powerful enough to get you around.

You have to look at them as a blank canvas and make a few mods to suit what you are going to use them for.

I have done a Lap of Victoria and now Tasmania in mine and think they are an awesome touring vehicle as you can point to almost any location on a map, and go check the place out.

I think a lot of the haters have only driven to pov pack models but not the equivalent higher level ones which usually have a softer suspension and better cabin insulation. Small difference yes but noticeable.

I will concede that they sound like a sewing machine however, but getting down below 8lt per hundred on the highway for a vehicle that weighs as much as it does, is something that can't be complained about.

To me it's offering less to the customer at a higher price,

You're getting a light commercial vehicle platform that's been rolled in glitter in the higher spec versions, most of them still have drum brakes on the back still and the only reason for it is tax advantages for manufacturers based in Thailand

They offer a bunch of tiny capacity diesel engines in a 2000kg+ vehicle, they don't stop , steer or ride nicely and throw in a high centre of gravity and shitful 'all terrain' tyres and you have a recipe for appearing in the monthly DCOA compilations, for me to sit down and watch with my family and road rage and yell at the TV from the couch

But hey, their money they can spend it how they wish, if you need a single cab tray back ute with a 1000kg payload to do work with, then they're spot on. I used a single cab tray back RG Colorado for work to deliver ~1000kg worth of pallets on a 180km delivery run across Melbourne suburbia and it did it with ease.

Wouldn't catch me in one as a family bus though, passenger vehicles are way better than light commercial vehicle platforms for driving on the daily, it's just a big compromise having a ladder frame leaf sprung vehicle that steers and sounds like a bus.

Then they slap a $80,000 price tag on it and we lap it up

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by whynot

The irony of the last few pages of this thread is that, when there is a low stressed engine in a 4WD (aka 70 Series V8 Toyota LandCruiser) on the market ... most people cannot resist the urge to take it down to the local dyno shop and get the ECU retuned. Thereby completely undoing the conservative engineering in the vehicle.

Totally spot on.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by whynot

The irony of the last few pages of this thread is that, when there is a low stressed engine in a 4WD (aka 70 Series V8 Toyota LandCruiser) on the market ... most people cannot resist the urge to take it down to the local dyno shop and get the ECU retuned. Thereby completely undoing the conservative engineering in the vehicle.

Except the 1VD-FTV is a piece of shit, it's the unique combination of under stressed and unreliable with EGR dramas and injector problems, it sold heaps but Toyota still discontinued it in replacement for the 2.8L diesel four, which is superior

I don't think it was 'conservative' it was laziness and a customer base who keep buying it.

Was the ridiculous front and rear track difference 'conservative' engineering as well?

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Except the 1VD-FTV is a piece of shit, it's the unique combination of under stressed and unreliable with EGR dramas and injector problems, it sold heaps but Toyota still discontinued it in replacement for the 2.8L diesel four, which is superior

I don't think it was 'conservative' it was laziness and a customer base who keep buying it.

Was the ridiculous front and rear track difference 'conservative' engineering as well?

I got the impression whynot was referring to conservatively powered 4WD vehicles in general.
That being an example of it being of larger displacement.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I got the impression whynot was referring to conservatively powered 4WD vehicles in general.
That being an example of it being of larger displacement.

Poor example to choose though because it's hardly changed in 30 years and then the big changes saw it go backwards, introduction of that engine and the resulting lazy engineering in the differing front and rear track.

Given the previous generation has the 4.2L 1HD-FTE and the following had the 4.5L 1VD-FTV lemon, it's probably not a great comparison as they've always been large displacement engines on offer there, the latter just sucks.

It was Toyota's first ever diesel V8 engine, when they have decades of experience in inline 6 diesels.

[Franco Cozzo]

In other news,

Chinese Thailand Special breaks BYDs website:

BYD launches Shark 6 electric ute with lower than expected pricing that crashed website

BYD, one of the world’s fastest-growing automakers, has made a spectacular entry into the market for utes in Australia and laid down an immediate challenge to traditional best-sellers like the Toyota Hilux and Ford Ranger.

The company officially launched the Shark 6 plug-in hybrid ute on Tuesday evening at an event at Mt Gipps station near the iconic mining town of Broken Hill – despite the lingering threat of ongoing blackouts – and announced a price which is well below what many expected – $57,900 before on-roads.

This is much lower than what many expected and the BYD local website went down for nearly 2 hours. That outage left some potential customers a bit disappointed but the website did come back online by 10 pm on the evening.

https://thedriven.io/2024/10/30/byd-...ashed-website/

Oh my lord, what's a Wildtrak worth? ~$90,000?

We've got a huge continent of Thailand Special sympathisers on AFF, how many of you are keen to test out the BYD Shark 6 at its impressive value proposition? Or are you of the opinion your Thailand light commercial vehicle is better than China's light commercial vehicle?

[whynot]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I got the impression whynot was referring to conservatively powered 4WD vehicles in general.
That being an example of it being of larger displacement.

Yup. Correct.

We could also compare these engines

• Izusu NLR 45-150 - 3l, 110 kW, 375 Nm
• Izusu DMax - 3l, 140kW, 450Nm

Two adjacent applications, with the engine in the NLR being "lightly stressed" than the DMax.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Poor example to choose though because it's hardly changed in 30 years and then the big changes saw it go backwards, introduction of that engine and the resulting lazy engineering in the differing front and rear track.

Given the previous generation has the 4.2L 1HD-FTE and the following had the 4.5L 1VD-FTV lemon, it's probably not a great comparison as they've always been large displacement engines on offer there, the latter just sucks.

It was Toyota's first ever diesel V8 engine, when they have decades of experience in inline 6 diesels.

I really don't give a crap about any of them, but he makes a good point about buying vehicles (known in the past) for their reliability and modifying them to outside their designed parameters.

I have a good chuckle every time I see a silly whistling diesel running down the road blowing black smoke everywhere while it pops on every gear change, trying to out sprint a V8 (insert name here)

[kevino]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I really don't give a crap about any of them, but he makes a good point about buying vehicles (known in the past) for their reliability and modifying them to outside their designed parameters.

I have a good chuckle every time I see a silly whistling diesel running down the road blowing black smoke everywhere while it pops on every gear change, trying to out sprint a V8 (insert name here)

I dragged off a modified 70 series manual v8 in my 70 kw five speed 1 litre Skoda Fabia wagon
Enough said

[whynot]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

We've got a huge continent of Thailand Special sympathisers on AFF, how many of you are keen to test out the BYD Shark 6 at its impressive value proposition?

No, not really.

First up, BYD haven't sorted out the ride and handling yet. Not to mention the compulsory ANCAP driver assist is really poorly designed. It will take a couple of iterations for BYD to sort this out, but until they do it is a show stopper for me.

Second, until the Chinese actually invade Australia and we are forced to abide by the CCP, I will not have my vehicle usage data reside in a location accessible by the CCP.

I am sure others see differently to me and BYD will sell these by the shipload.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by prydey

Not sure what to tell you. You're mind is made up already.

You asked for evidence that there were examples out there with high km. I showed you that evidence with the caveat that the engine hasn't been around long enough for there to be a large number.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about this engine. I own one now and it's brilliant in my opinion. I keep hearing about how it's a ticking time bomb by the usual suspects on here so just thought I'd ask for clarification on why they made those claims. Of course all they could provide was evidence of other engines lasting a long time. I'm not sure what that proves exactly.

If a small engine bothers you, then don't buy one. Simple.

If you think it's stressed to the point durability and reliability is affected, then prove it.

Who said it’s a ticking time bomb?
I haven’t referenced its reliability in the short term, instead cast doubt on the longevity of the engine.
Reality is this isn’t going to be an issue for most owners, as they use them for doing the same job a Suzuki Swift can do - driving around town or up and down the freeways 90% of the time with minimal fuel burn/work.
You got butt hurt because I called it and the other four cylinders out for what they are, a noisy harsh un charismatic asthmatic dog. I get that, if you've dropped $70k on one and need to justify this to yourself in a remorseful way.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by whynot

No, not really.

First up, BYD haven't sorted out the ride and handling yet. Not to mention the compulsory ANCAP driver assist is really poorly designed. It will take a couple of iterations for BYD to sort this out, but until they do it is a show stopper for me.

Second, until the Chinese actually invade Australia and we are forced to abide by the CCP, I will not have my vehicle usage data reside in a location accessible by the CCP.

I am sure others see differently to me and BYD will sell these by the shipload.

Ride and handling? Of Thailand Specials?

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by kevino

I dragged off a modified 70 series manual v8 in my 70 kw five speed 1 litre Skoda Fabia wagon
Enough said

Funny thing are words, I wasn't referring to a Landcruiser but one of the many other Thai dual cabs.

[PooDog]

I shelled out over 60k for my FGX XR8 ,bought it site unseen ....they have there issues but value for $ it was a good buy ,mechanically proven (rear end aside)

When looking for a ute I discounted Ranger straight away (interior was a deal breaker ) that aside if I had bought a Ranger which was in that transition period 3.2l/bi turbo , I would have bought the 3.2l because in y opinion the 2.0l must be pretty stressed to produce that sort of power

They sell a lot of them ,wether it's because of the volume that you hear stories of motor frailty....I don't know , if you've bought one then best of luck to you ( I would be very protective of it

The elephant in the room is you hear stories from all sorts of people in the industry about bi turbo motor issues (some of them independent, no axe to grind )

As Bent8 and Smoo have said its a lot of dollars to outlay on a ute that's reputation could be dubious?
,from a manufacturer that's reputation for warranty claims is probably not at the highest end (sadly )

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by PooDog

I shelled out over 60k for my FGX XR8 ,bought it site unseen ....they have there issues but value for $ it was a good buy ,mechanically proven (rear end aside)

Same coin now buys you something with drum brakes on the rear and a diesel engine less than half the size, that steers and handles like the Costa Concordia while doing a 1/4 mile and 80-120 time that would struggle to best a Starfire Commodore

[whynot]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Ride and handling? Of Thailand Specials?

Yes, and early testing suggests that the BYD is worse than these.

Yeah, I get it you have a bee in your bonnet about the Ranger/Hilux et al being built in Thailand and the subsequent loss of Australian jobs. But the buying public have moved on from sedans (large, medium, and small). The only way Ford and Toyota would have been able to keep manufacturing in Australia is if they built body on frame vehicles here (aka Ranger, Hilux, et al). But that was never going to happen either because of lack of political support.

As for myself, in our well earned retirement, the missus and I want to go see some of the more remote parts of Australia. Nothing too arduous. Though it will involve travel on unsealed roads with sharp stones; and that implies all terrain tyres with some sidewall strength. It will involve travel through countryside with roaming cattle and roos; and that implies a bullbar. It also means carrying several days of emergency supplies of water, Cheese Twisties, Tim Tams, steak, bread, and extra tomato sauce. Plus some emergency camping kit if we get stuck. All of this requires space, which in turn means a larger vehicle.

As we are visiting some of the world's few remaining "dark skies" sites, I will be packing the telescope and associated kit. Overseas astronomers from the northern hemisphere literally wet their pants at the thought of a clear winter's night, with a Bortle 0 sky, in Outback Australia. For most, such a trip is beyond them. Yet, it is in relatively easy reach for us.

It is not the type of road trip one can do in a Ford Focus. Even bit dubious in a Ford Territory. And while a Ford Focus can out brake an Everest by a considerable margin, that is of little value when stuck on the side of the road with massive cuts in soft-walled tyres.

For me, it was a choice between a Ranger, Everest, Prado, or LandCruiser. They all have strengths and weakness, but all are fundamentally good vehicles.

As for the entry of other manufacturers, I welcome it. If, for no other reason than it puts downwards pressure on the sticker price.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by PooDog

, if you've bought one then best of luck to you ( I would be very protective of it

...

,from a manufacturer that's reputation for warranty claims is probably not at the highest end (sadly )

I see in your .sig that you have a 22 mitsubishi outlander XLS PHEV

I once had a 2014 Outlander PHEV on an operational novated lease. Within the three years that I had it, the battery capacity fell below the warranty 70% capacity - and Mitsubishi refused to do anything about it. Cost to fix was over $11k.

There were quite a few other niggles with the vehicle; excessive free play in the steering, autonomous emergency braking that would randomly slam on causing a brake check to the poor sod behind me, etc. Mitsubishi 'could not fault' and showed no interest in fixing these problems.

Fortunately, with an operational novated lease, I could just hand the keys back and it became the lessor's problem. Result, not buying any more Mitsubishi vehicles.

Last I heard, there was still a Class Action in the Australian Federal Courts by ****ed off Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV owners about Mitsubishi not honouring their warranty.

As you say, I would be very protective of the PHEV.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

In other news,

Chinese Thailand Special breaks BYDs website:



https://thedriven.io/2024/10/30/byd-...ashed-website/

Oh my lord, what's a Wildtrak worth? ~$90,000?

We've got a huge continent of Thailand Special sympathisers on AFF, how many of you are keen to test out the BYD Shark 6 at its impressive value proposition? Or are you of the opinion your Thailand light commercial vehicle is better than China's light commercial vehicle?

Would not touch any hybrid ute, they are there for the tree huggers who think they are saving the planet.
Only just a PR exercise from manufacturers to sell utes and keep govco's happy with so called emission savings.

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Same coin now buys you something with drum brakes on the rear and a diesel engine less than half the size, that steers and handles like the Costa Concordia while doing a 1/4 mile and 80-120 time that would struggle to best a Starfire Commodore

I guess that 60k is probably today's 80k though