Should volunteer firefighters get paid?

[hayseed]

[b0son]

Originally Posted by asagaai

For whatever reason- the fires Australia is experiencing in terms of spread nationally, duration and intensity is unprecedented.

There's a drought. That's not unprecedented. Recorded history as far as Australia is concerned is pretty short. There's evidence we have massive prolonged droughts every 500 years or so that last a decade or more. Guess when the next one was roughly due....

The real problem we have is a lot of our policies are based on the assumption or hope that we would get dependable rainfalls. I don't doubt a lot of backburning could not be done because of wind conditions etc. But 4-5 years on the trot? That's a lack of planning (and that means stop assuming you can predict weather patterns a year or more away).

edit: and before anyone jumps on me for assuming I meant the RFS is to blame, I meant in terms of environmental policy from state/fed governments that prevent the RFS from doing what needs to be done, in the name of wildlife, in the name of air quality, or simply inconvenience to residents.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by marty351

Paid? No. Its a volunteer position.
Duly compensated? Hell yes!
As mentioned above with tax credits and income loss protections etc.

But what does this mean? An employer should be forced to continue paying you if you are off for perhaps weeks on end fighting fires?

Firefighting is a community service, that cost should be borne by the community not business alone. We pay people jury duty but only up to the first 10 days. Beyond that, the taxpayer picks up the tab.

[roKWiz]

Lifeguards are paid why not bush firefighters.

[Franco Cozzo]

What was that plan they talked about decades ago to pipe water around the country from areas with high rainfall?

Sounds like a plan

[Tassie f100]

Dead on the money Rokwiz.I remember when the Greens pushed until they got the high country nth of Orbost locked up.When the cattlemen were grazing cattle there,they kept the tracks open for access.When they got kicked out the tracks got overgrown and blocked off with fallen trees,if a fire started there was no easy way to attack until they cleared the roads for trucks to access the fire front.

[ratter]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Lifeguards are paid why not bush firefighters.

Professional firefighters are paid, just like professional lifeguards are, volunteer lifeguards get the same as volunteer firefighters

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

When they got kicked out the tracks got overgrown and blocked off with fallen trees,if a fire started there was no easy way to attack until they cleared the roads for trucks to access the fire front.

You only have to watch the numerous 4wd high country youtube videos to see just how much the infrequently used tracks will overgrow within a year or two, or how log-cutting has to be done to clear tracks at the start of the park's re-opening. The greenies would do well to remember why those tracks were made in the first place, and it wasn't for tourism.

[Cav]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Cav, I notice the army always turn up after the fire is out.

Wash ya mouth out.

Here I is winning the war against fire ...



The consensus is in.

I is a hero, just ask me and I'll tell ya.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Cav

Wash ya mouth out.

Here I is winning the war against fire ...

image

The consensus is in.

I is a hero, just ask me and I'll tell ya.

Wow what a hunk of a man! I can see why you attract all the ladies

AFF's most eligible bachelor 1969

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Cav

Wash ya mouth out.

Here I is winning the war against fire ...

image

The consensus is in.

I is a hero, just ask me and I'll tell ya.

Cav you are a hero mate, what I meant to say was turn up when the fire is out or after the main front has passed. Like in your pic.

Is that a flamethrower in your hands. ??

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

What was that plan they talked about decades ago to pipe water around the country from areas with high rainfall?
Sounds like a plan

Well they drained Lake Mokoan not long ago and sent all the water to Melbourne to waste.

Now they call it Winton Wastelands. ........er ..........Wetlands
Another brilliant greens move.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Well they drained Lake Mokoan not long ago and sent all the water to Melbourne to waste.

Now they call it Winton Wastelands. ........er ..........Wetlands
Another brilliant greens move.

QLD and NT have areas which flood like anything with epic amounts of rainfall, whats a pipeline and dam system worth to take advantage of this rain?

Surely if we could mitigate flood damage in these areas with infrastructure and then move that water to other areas of the country, thats better than just getting flood damage in these areas and the water going out.

Israel has some next level irrigation system, surely we could do something similar for our farms or feed the flood waters from these areas back into river systems that flow to other parts of the country?

If a country in the middle of the god-damn Middle East surrounded by people trying to destroy it can keep water to its farms surely a nation as diverse as us can do this.

People keep complaining about wanting more resources but maybe we just need to utilise the existing resources we have better? We get areas of the country which flood on the regular - thats water we can utilise in other areas.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

QLD and NT have areas which flood like anything with epic amounts of rainfall, whats a pipeline and dam system worth to take advantage of this rain?

Surely if we could mitigate flood damage in these areas with infrastructure and then move that water to other areas of the country, thats better than just getting flood damage in these areas and the water going out.

Israel has some next level irrigation system, surely we could do something similar for our farms or feed the flood waters from these areas back into river systems that flow to other parts of the country?

If a country in the middle of the god-damn Middle East surrounded by people trying to destroy it can keep water to its farms surely a nation as diverse as us can do this.

People keep complaining about wanting more resources but maybe we just need to utilise the existing resources we have better? We get areas of the country which flood on the regular - thats water we can utilise in other areas.

Yeah would be a good idea in an ideal country as you stated but taking it from dry country areas and sending it to the coast doesn't make much sense. Murchinson - Echuca to Yarrawonga area has a irrigation channel system similar just needs to be on a greater scale

[Cav]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Wow what a hunk of a man! I can see why you attract all the ladies

AFF's most eligible bachelor 1969

Eggsacery Franco

[Cav]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Cav you are a hero mate, what I meant to say was turn up when the fire is out or after the main front has passed. Like in your pic.

Is that a flamethrower in your hands. ??

You mean that thing that extends 10 inches in front of me?

No that's my dick.

I wuz taking a leak.

[Cav]

Since November 8, Defence has provided the following support to firefighting efforts:

From December 2-6 and December 10-11, Army provided rotary-wing support to the New South Wales Rural Fire Service from Holsworthy Barracks to support search and rescue and firefighting intelligence.
From December 10-11, a Royal Australian Navy helicopter provided support to the New South Wales Rural Fire Service for 24 hours to fly day and night missions from the naval air station at Nowra to facilitate the operation of Rural Fire Service-trained air observers.
A Royal Australian Air Force 737 Boeing business jet transported ACT Rural Fire Service firefighters from Canberra to Port Macquarie on November 8.
A Royal Australian Air Force C-130J Hercules aircraft transported firefighters and their equipment from Adelaide to Port Macquarie on November 9.
A Royal Australian Air Force C-130J Hercules aircraft transported firefighters and their equipment from Hobart to Port Macquarie on November 10.
A Royal Australian Air Force C-130J Hercules aircraft transported firefighters and their equipment from Essendon and Mildura to Armidale on November 12.
A Royal Australian Air Force KC-30A multi-role tanker transport aircraft transported 150 firefighters and their personal equipment from Melbourne Airport to Sydney Airport on November 14.
Two Royal Australian Air Force KC-30A multi-role tanker transport aircraft transported 258 firefighters and their personal equipment from Sydney Airport to Melbourne Airport on November 15.
A Royal Australian Air Force C-17A Globemaster aircraft transported 165 firefighters and their equipment, using two flights, from Melbourne to Coffs Harbour on November 17.
A Royal Australian Air Force C-17A Globemaster aircraft transported 130 firefighters and their equipment from RAAF Base Richmond to Melbourne. The same aircraft then transported an additional 130 firefighters and their equipment from Coffs Harbour to Melbourne on November 18.
A Royal Australian Air Force C-17A Globemaster aircraft transported 130 firefighters from Melbourne to RAAF Base Richmond on November 19.
A Royal Australian Air Force C-130J Hercules aircraft transported 140 firefighters and their equipment from Melbourne to Coffs Harbour on November 20.
A Royal Australian Air Force C-130J Hercules aircraft transported 167 firefighters and their equipment from Coffs Harbour to Melbourne on November 21.
A Royal Australian Air Force C-130J Hercules aircraft transported 108 firefighters and their equipment from Coffs Harbour to Melbourne on November 24.
On November 18, 21 and 22, Army supported Queensland Fire and Emergency Services helicopter operations at Borneo Barracks, near Toowoomba.
From November 11-13, Singleton Army Barracks provided accommodation and catering support to about 200 firefighters from the Victorian Country Fire Authority.
From November 12-14, a Royal Australian Navy and Australian Army aviation liaison capability worked within the New South Wales Rural Fire Service State Operations Centre to ensure Australian Defence Force air support was appropriately coordinated.
From November 12-14, two MRH-90 Taipan helicopters from the Royal Australian Navy and two S-70 Black Hawk helicopters from the Australian Army provided movements for Rural Fire Service strike teams and, if required, the rescue of civilian personnel.
From November 12-13, the Royal Australian Navy provided two MH-60R Seahawk helicopters to fly night missions from Sydney and Coffs Harbour to facilitate the operation of Rural Fire Service air observers. Two EC135 helicopters continued support on November 14.
Two EC135 helicopters from the Royal Australian Navy and two S-70 Black Hawk helicopters from the Australian Army flew in support of New South Wales Rural Fire Service impact assessments on November 14.
Australian Defence Force personnel from Kokoda Barracks, Canungra, and the 7th Brigade, Brisbane, provided engineering support to assist Queensland Fire and Emergency Services to clean up fire breaks near Beechmont.
From November 12-13, Kokoda Army Barracks, Canungra, provided evening meals for 40 firefighters.
On November 14, RAAF Base Pearce provided support to aerial firefighting aircraft from the Western Australian Department of Fire and Emergency Services under DACC 4 arrangements.
From November 12-16, RAAF Base Williamtown provided refuelling and water re-supply support to a large aerial tanker from the New South Wales Rural Fire Service.
From November 13-17, Army Tiger armed reconnaissance helicopters supported Queensland Fire and Emergency Services conducting night fire mapping – on November 17, an Army Tiger armed reconnaissance helicopter provided support to search for isolated persons in a high-threat fire area. The individuals were safely recovered by Queensland Fire and Emergency Services.
From November 13-23, RAAF Base Richmond provided accommodation and catering support for varying numbers of between 150 and 300 firefighters, as well as providing workshop/maintenance hangars for up to 50 fire appliances and support vehicles.
On November 18, the 7th Brigade provided a platoon to support Queensland Police and Queensland State Emergency Services to search for a missing person around Mount Glorious, Queensland. The missing person was located on the morning of November 18.
From November 18-19, the Army’s Borneo Barracks near Toowoomba established a helicopter-landing site, overnight parking and refuelling capability for firefighting and support to civilian rotary-wing aircraft.
From November 20-21, two Australian Army MRH-90 Taipan helicopters conducted night fire mapping in south-east Queensland in support of the Queensland Fire and Emergency Services.
On November 21, a New South Wales Rural Fire Service large aerial tanker was refuelled at RAAF Base Edinburgh after a mission was completed in South Australia.
From November 22-27, Army provided logistics support to the Queensland Fire and Emergency Services incident control centre, hosted on Borneo Barracks, Cabarlah.
On November 26, RAAF Base Gingin provided 18,900 litres of water to two water bombers fighting a fire in the vicinity of Yanchep.
On December 3-4, HMAS Albatross was used to provide catering and accommodation for the New South Wales Rural Fire Service at Naval Air Station Nowra.
On December 4, RAAF Base Pearce provided 12,000 litres of water to two water bombers fighting fires in the vicinity of the City of Swan, Perth.
On December 15, RAAF Base Pearce provided support to aerial firefighting aircraft from the Western Australian Department of Fire and Emergency Services. Some 60,000 litres of water and 17,870 litres of fuel was provided for the firefighting efforts in the vicinity of Collie and 18,000 litres was provided for firefighting efforts in the vicinity of Yanchep.
On December 16, RAAF Base Pearce provided support to aerial firefighting aircraft from the Western Australian Department of Fire and Emergency Services. About 3000 litres of water was provided to fight a fire in the vicinity of Brand Highway.

Overview

The ADF is not trained, equipped or certified to undertake ground-based or aerial bush firefighting and does not get involved in the direct act of fighting bushfires outside Defence property.
The Work Health Safety Act 2011 (Commonwealth) (WHS Act) limits the range of tasks that can be undertaken by Defence personnel, which includes the fighting of bushfires.
The state and territory governments have primary responsibility for the protection of life, property and the environment, and for coordinating and planning emergency responses or recovery actions in disaster-affected areas within their jurisdiction.
The ADF is able to support the states and territories, within resource limitations, in accordance with Defence Assistance to the Civil Community arrangements as part of a whole-of-government response, where state or territory capacity or resources do not exist, or are not available in sufficient time.
Defence has arrangements in place to call out ADF reservists if required to supplement regular personnel.
Defence is working with Emergency Management Australia to identify what other ADF capabilities, such as aviation, logistics, transport, engineering and accommodation support can be provided to aid firefighting efforts in eastern Australia.
Defence is postured to provide further airlift support and is prepared to provide assistance in areas such as aerial fire reconnaissance, logistical support (ground transport, accommodation, meals etc.) and engineering (field work) upon request from state or territory governments.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by Cav

Pay firefighters?

What happens when they are not fighting fires?

Do they get standby/callout money doing nothing?

Maybe a base wage and then a top up when they fight fires?

Should the equipment they buy be tax deductible?

Do you have to join a union to be a paid firefighter?

Will they go on strike for better wages and conditions?

Does a person on a higher wage get the same money fighting fires as a person who is unemployed?

How much should Tony Abbott be paid?

I could go on and talk about the Army, but your eyes would glaze over.

It exists in NSW

FRNSW has Retained firefighters, they get paid for being on call for a minimum 24hrs a week, they are paid per hour for incident calls drills and training, they have to meet a KPI of 33% of all calls and attend at least 75% of drills

The pay is based on rank and time in service

RFS is a complete different situation as there is no availability commitment, you can do as much or as little as you can

With regards to ADF personal every shift I’ve done I’ve bumped in to ADF in one capacity or another so where people get the idea they aren’t involved is beyond me

[Adamz Ghia]

Police get paid.
Paramedics get paid.

Why shouldn’t firefighters? I challenge anyone to take a look at what they’re fighting against now and then say they shouldn’t be paid.

Any time they spend on any form of duty should be paid. And in a country like ours they should be funded for what ever they need, best of the best.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

Police get paid.
Paramedics get paid.

Why shouldn’t firefighters? I challenge anyone to take a look at what they’re fighting against now and then say they shouldn’t be paid.

Any time they spend on any form of duty should be paid. And in a country like ours they should be funded for what ever they need, best of the best.

Professional firefighters do get paid, CFA here in VIC has professional crews in the larger regional centres, but there are a lot of volunteers too.

Check out the pay rates for firefighters in VIC:

https://firefighter.vic.gov.au/about...-firefighters/

$1655/week + 4 days off per roster cycle AND 9 weeks paid annual leave.

Add on super, sick leave, personal leave, compensation if they get hurt etc

It would get pretty expensive pretty quickly trying to fund an entire crew of professional firefighters to cover bushfire prone regions.

You couldn't afford to do it with our small population, its not economically viable, you need to rely on volunteers.

Maybe if Australia had a population of 75M-100M people then you would have the tax payer base to be able to realistically afford this level of Government services to cover regional areas well without relying on volunteers.

Alternatively - in these areas its a risk you should be thinking about.

Where my old business partner used to live with his family, local CFA told them they're not coming to rescue them in a bush fire, you're on your own, its too risky for them.

Their house had massive water tank reserves, multiple fire pumps and a sprinkler system that covered the whole roof of the house and a few extra sprinklers around the house plus huge breaks between the forest and their house.

Where does personal responsibility come into the equation? Why should the government/tax payers subsidise regional lifestyle? Do people fully understand the risks of bush fires in these areas and that you are relying on volunteers and they may not be able to rescue you?

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Where does personal responsibility come into the equation? Why should the government/tax payers subsidise regional lifestyle? Do people fully understand the risks of bush fires in these areas and that you are relying on volunteers and they may not be able to rescue you?

Exactly, There's being Bush fires up in the Blue Mountains on a very regular basis All My Life..

Yet they Still Buy/ Build up in there..

I think it's only a Matter of Time before Insurance Companies start adding a Bush Fire Levy to various Postcodes. Much Like they do with their "Flood Levies" in Various Postcodes..

Pretty sure the N.S.W. RFS get a lot of their Funding from the Insurance industry, Via Levies on every Policy...

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Professional firefighters do get paid, CFA here in VIC has professional crews in the larger regional centres, but there are a lot of volunteers too.

Check out the pay rates for firefighters in VIC:

https://firefighter.vic.gov.au/about...-firefighters/

$1655/week + 4 days off per roster cycle AND 9 weeks paid annual leave.

Add on super, sick leave, personal leave, compensation if they get hurt etc

It would get pretty expensive pretty quickly trying to fund an entire crew of professional firefighters to cover bushfire prone regions.

You couldn't afford to do it with our small population, its not economically viable, you need to rely on volunteers.

Maybe if Australia had a population of 75M-100M people then you would have the tax payer base to be able to realistically afford this level of Government services to cover regional areas well without relying on volunteers.

Alternatively - in these areas its a risk you should be thinking about.

Where my old business partner used to live with his family, local CFA told them they're not coming to rescue them in a bush fire, you're on your own, its too risky for them.

Their house had massive water tank reserves, multiple fire pumps and a sprinkler system that covered the whole roof of the house and a few extra sprinklers around the house plus huge breaks between the forest and their house.

Where does personal responsibility come into the equation? Why should the government/tax payers subsidise regional lifestyle? Do people fully understand the risks of bush fires in these areas and that you are relying on volunteers and they may not be able to rescue you?

I get that it would be expensive, and I wouldn’t suggest they get paid as a full time gig. But when they’re out fighting fires as they are now I believe they should be paid from the time they leave to the time they walk back through their front door when they get home. For the job they do and the risks they take they deserve it.

You look at government waste ($1.2b NOT to build a highway) and we could easily afford it.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

I get that it would be expensive, and I wouldn’t suggest they get paid as a full time gig. But when they’re out fighting fires as they are now I believe they should be paid from the time they leave to the time they walk back through their front door when they get home. For the job they do and the risks they take they deserve it.

You look at government waste ($1.2b NOT to build a highway) and we could easily afford it.

There would be liability issues that all of a sudden the Government becomes liable for the moment these people start collecting payment from the government - they'd be under employment law.

I reckon you'd be breaching your OHS/WHS responsibilities putting these people in front of fires and in charge of equipment without having the proper training when volunteers suddenly become employees.

I don't think what ever basic training our regional fire services provide to their volunteers would cut it in court in an OHS/WHS case when they get hurt or killed.

With Government waste, its always going to happen and will happen again in the future, thats politics and Government.

Unfortunately its such a massive beast it can't change easily, like big corporations.

Its a good idea, don't get me wrong I'm not against these people being compensated in some way but I think in the real world implementation of it, it would be a legal minefield.

[roddy1960]

I understand the confusion on this . It's not simple to sort out .As has been said already it'd be a nightmare legally to sort out remuneration scales for people who are not primarily employed as firefighters. Maybe every year once a set amount of training is reached something like a tax rebate is paid to modestly acknowledge service and offset any out of pocket expenses for training or travel etc while learning skills .

I guess volunteer firey's would be able to get a tax deduction for travel costs to a degree but so long as the appropriate evidence was there a worthwhile annual rebate for currently serving volunteer fire members might be a way they receive some offset for their incredible service .

Same with the volunteer ambo's and S.E.S. people . Some of us would not be here now without them and they save the governments countless millions of dollars in lost property as well ..

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

There would be liability issues that all of a sudden the Government becomes liable for the moment these people start collecting payment from the government - they'd be under employment law.

I reckon you'd be breaching your OHS/WHS responsibilities putting these people in front of fires and in charge of equipment without having the proper training when volunteers suddenly become employees.

I don't think what ever basic training our regional fire services provide to their volunteers would cut it in court in an OHS/WHS case when they get hurt or killed.

With Government waste, its always going to happen and will happen again in the future, thats politics and Government.

Unfortunately its such a massive beast it can't change easily, like big corporations.

Its a good idea, don't get me wrong I'm not against these people being compensated in some way but I think in the real world implementation of it, it would be a legal minefield.

Mate a couple of your posts on this subject are way off the mark and I suspect it’s through lack of knowledge and not respect.

A/ all RFS, Etc volunteers are covered by work cover etc if a firey hurts them self on duty they are covered. When I broke my ankle, all I did was send a letter from HR stating my annual salary and average OT and I was covered.

B/ Subsidising rural lifestyle, look at the rates and taxes these people pay and what they get per $ spent to those living in the city.

Look in Sydney for example, 2 stations are that close together in some cases they could yell their lunch orders to each other.

Where as leave the city and it’s mostly covered by Volos, yeah the equipment and training is paid for the rest is covered by fund raisers.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

Mate a couple of your posts on this subject are way off the mark and I suspect it’s through lack of knowledge and not respect.

A/ all RFS, Etc volunteers are covered by work cover etc if a firey hurts them self on duty they are covered. When I broke my ankle, all I did was send a letter from HR stating my annual salary and average OT and I was covered.

B/ Subsidising rural lifestyle, look at the rates and taxes these people pay and what they get per $ spent to those living in the city.

Look in Sydney for example, 2 stations are that close together in some cases they could yell their lunch orders to each other.

Where as leave the city and it’s mostly covered by Volos, yeah the equipment and training is paid for the rest is covered by fund raisers.

I'm just speculating

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by hayseed

Exactly, There's being Bush fires up in the Blue Mountains on a very regular basis All My Life..

Yet they Still Buy/ Build up in there..

I think it's only a Matter of Time before Insurance Companies start adding a Bush Fire Levy to various Postcodes. Much Like they do with their "Flood Levies" in Various Postcodes..

Pretty sure the N.S.W. RFS get a lot of their Funding from the Insurance industry, Via Levies on every Policy...

My home in Suburban Sydney is bushfire zoned. Have the official report of my rating and had to build to a certain standard.

Insurance didn't care and there is no stipulation to mention it nor is there any surcharge or special provision regarding bushfire rating.

They simply insure the structure as it stands for replacement value.

That's fine for relatively new structures that are built to the correct standards (and should be able to resist fire based on that protection) but you got older houses right in the middle of trees that would NEVER be allowed today.

The townhouses next door are built right down to the rear boundary where the trees are, they don't have fire screens, leaf guard in the gutters, ember seals in their weep holes or ember brushes on their garage doors.

All those above safety features could be retro fitted if desired for not that much money. Yet there is no law to say it should be done.

Yet, flammable cladding on near new apartment buildings are all being changed to non flammable types (by law???).

Go figure.

Funny how an industry that is based on threat and risk sees no issue with that.

There is also going to be a whole heap of under insured houses. The 3br fibro house that just got burnt will cost MUCH more to build to new specifications.

Perhaps this will be the shakeup that is needed to try and get non compliant houses to somewhere near current standards.

[aussiblue]

Lifeguards are paid why not bush firefighters.

Surf lifesavers aren't paid.

[MITCHAY]

Would something based on the army reserve work? I'm not sure how much that costs but perhaps somewhere to start.

[minheim]

In the 1994 bushfire emergency period Paul Keating authorised payments for Volunteer firefighters that had their regular employer wages compromised by their absence fighting fires. See the attached link - https://www.reddit.com/r/AusPol/comm...ting_did_in_a/
Quite a contrast to Scott Morrison who is sitting on his hands. Apparently volunteers who are on New Start have had their payments stopped due to missing requirements whilst fighting fires.