Take That holden! - Page 2

BENT_8 · 03-01-2019, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

I think the uproar over the Raptor was that most people were expecting a performance engine not one out of a van.

Would many people even know what its origins were though?

No, i believe its the capacity that puts people off, especially when for decades the rule of thumb was to increae capacity in order to increase output.
A bit of a walk down memory lane but..

When the GT was first released it was a 289ci, the it went 302ci, then Windsor 351ci, the 351C, all the time offering more go.
Fast forward to the 90's when ford brought the V8 back and it was 5.0l with 165kw and by the time the last AU's rolled around that 5.0l was 5.6l and 260kw.

Enter the BA and despite a slight decrease in capacity the power was on the rise again and stayed that way until the blown 5.0l reset the agenda.

Over in the other camp it was 307, 327 and 350, then the GTR Torana came about and despite its David and Goliath win over the fire breathing GTHO at Bathurst, they didnt sell in any real numbers, average joe still bought the biggest V8 offering in the humble 308 or the few lucky enough to score a 350 HQ.
Holden turned up the wick on the old girl via numerous different methods culminating in fuel injection and finally the stroked 230kw blueprinted GTS/R.
Enter the Gen3 5.7 and subsequent upsizing since.

Its not in the Aussie psyche to accept smaller is better, the exceptions to the rule are too few and far between.

naddis01 · 03-01-2019, 05:43 PM

What I was meaning was most people were expecting more than 157kW.

BENT_8 · 03-01-2019, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

What I was meaning was most people were expecting more than 150kW.

Oh no, i get it, but i would be prepared to bet that a 3.2l with the same tech applied as that of the 2.0l with say 200kw would have received a different response.
I doubt winding the 2.0l up to max would cut it either, not when it could probably be wound up with a tune anyway.

Theres no doubt the little 2.0l when combined with the 10sp is a good bit of kit and the numbers are on the board that prove it outperforms the ageing 3.2l, so whats the hold up?
The capacity is what im hearing.

Back in the day we lived by the theory that theres no replacement for displacement and despite the Jap turbo 4 banger boys suggesting otherwise we wouldn't have a bar of it, why now that Ford says its ok do we expect people to just accept it.
Whats next, a 1.5lt with 15sp.

naddis01 · 03-01-2019, 06:12 PM

We're getting off track but I think people were expecting something more like the 2.3 Ecoboost as per the US Ranger. At least it can outpace a Hyundai Excel.

jpd80 · 03-01-2019, 06:27 PM

The US Ranger and its 2.3 EB was a quick workaround after all the global refreshes were locked in,
it wasn't available to the project before that time and is basically North American exclusive.

The 3.2 I-5 was another possibility but was ruled out as that engine was going away before
some very good work was done by AVL to make it US EPA Tier 2 Bin 1 and Euro 6 compliant

MITCHAY · 03-01-2019, 09:39 PM

Holden is no longer a manufacturer so not much to lose. I wouldn't buy anything they offer these days I reckon. Insignia aside it is crap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

I think the uproar over the Raptor was that most people were expecting a performance engine not one out of a van.

I have since found out the one Raptor I have seen lives up the road it is actually quite bland.

No way I'd pony up the difference over a Wildtrak which I have seen plenty done up nice.

Bossxr8 · 03-01-2019, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Ranger lead design team is the Aussies

(they're not immune to stuff ups either, e.g. Raptor Ranger being Diesel only WTF!)

.

Yep. They stuffed it up so badly they had to increase production cause it’s selling so well. What a fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Oh no, i get it, but i would be prepared to bet that a 3.2l with the same tech applied as that of the 2.0l with say 200kw would have received a different response.
I doubt winding the 2.0l up to max would cut it either, not when it could probably be wound up with a tune anyway.

Theres no doubt the little 2.0l when combined with the 10sp is a good bit of kit and the numbers are on the board that prove it outperforms the ageing 3.2l, so whats the hold up?
The capacity is what im hearing.

Back in the day we lived by the theory that theres no replacement for displacement and despite the Jap turbo 4 banger boys suggesting otherwise we wouldn't have a bar of it, why now that Ford says its ok do we expect people to just accept it.
Whats next, a 1.5lt with 15sp.

Huh? The 2 litre ecoblue is outselling the 3.2 by a significant margin. Something like 75% of orders are ecoblue.

The idea that capacity is costing sales is garbage, cause most buyers are choosing the more powerful option.

Thats the one thing you are leaving out of the debate. Capacity is useless if it makes less power and torque, is slower, and uses more fuel.

It’s kinda like someone buying a 253 Holden when some 6’s would hose it.

marty351 · 03-01-2019, 10:56 PM

The sheep are sighng....
2l engine fails.
'nuff said.

BENT_8 · 03-01-2019, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Huh? The 2 litre ecoblue is outselling the 3.2 by a significant margin. Something like 75% of orders are ecoblue.

The idea that capacity is costing sales is garbage, cause most buyers are choosing the more powerful option.

Thats the one thing you are leaving out of the debate. Capacity is useless if it makes less power and torque, is slower, and uses more fuel.

All i can tell you is what i was told, im not sure why he'd make it up just for conversation and if its infact true, i doubt all those people who have this mindset would be central to his area, it would suggest its somewhat widespread.
The people making these comments and buying Dmax from him over Ranger aren't making up those 75% of 2.0l sales, nor the 25% of 3.2l sales either so they are still losing sales regardless of the actual numbers.

And i haven't chosen to leave anything out of the debate, but it would appear that if capacity alone is a sticking point with a percentage of the potential customer base, it would seem more likely that whats missing from the equation is their own homework.

I certainly am not doubting the advantages to the Ecoblue, but im not in the market so me knowing it is not of much value to Ford and thats my point.
I only know about it because i frequent here, not everyone out there in dual cab land is a regular forum dweller.

Heres what i do know though, Ranger has never been cheaper than it has over the last month, throw in the free servicing and gift card and its never been a better time to buy, when they release the figures tomorrow, if the much better Ranger 4x4 doesnt blow Hilux out of the water at the same price point for December theres something going on.

roddy1960 · 04-01-2019, 09:04 AM

I am a Ford tragic ..I'll always find it hard to buy anything else so I reckon at some stage it'll be something with a blue oval badge on it or will I take off my blue coloured glasses for the first time and buy something else .

If Ford keep heading down the Jim Hackett path by killing of cars pretty much entirely then that might have to be the case ..I hope at least the dear ol' Mustang survives the carnage so I can consider buying a new one when I retire in 6-7 years from now .

On the Mustang itself . I was surprised to read that Ford seriously underestimated the popularity of this icon in RHD initially . Quite a few Aussies like a bit of cubic displacement or forced induction , how could they under estimate that ? No wonder the Mustang has sold like it has in dear ol' Oz since it came here in right hand drive .

GM Camaro , Dodge Challenger etc. would probably sell in similar numbers too if RHD from the factory ever happened at prices comparable to Mustang . Mustang has proven that that market is worthwhile . .

Bossxr8 · 04-01-2019, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roddy1960

On the Mustang itself . I was surprised to read that Ford seriously underestimated the popularity of this icon in RHD initially . Quite a few Aussies like a bit of cubic displacement or forced induction , how could they under estimate that ? No wonder the Mustang has sold like it has in dear ol' Oz since it came here in right hand drive .

GM Camaro , Dodge Challenger etc. would probably sell in similar numbers too if RHD from the factory ever happened at prices comparable to Mustang . Mustang has proven that that market is worthwhile . .

Highly doubt it. The mustang is a global icon. Everyone knows what a mustang is. Camero much less so, and challenger even more so. I think you can write them both off as ever being factory rhd. GM have pulled out of most of the big rhd markets and will never get the numbers required to make rhd camaro’s. Dodge won’t get the numbers either, potential sales numbers just aren’t there.

bathurst77 · 04-01-2019, 01:10 PM

So heres a list of all countries with RHD

GM is already out of some of them except in name.
And I just cant see Isle of Man or Malta justifying it (no offence to anyone from there, but well...)

How long til GM decides its just not worth it to re engineer and retool?

Australia
Channel Islands
Japan
Hong Kong
India
Isle of Man
Ireland
Jamaica
Kenya
Malta
Malaysia
New Zealand
South Africa
Singapore
Thailand
United Kingdom

Syndrome · 04-01-2019, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bathurst77

So heres a list of all countries with RHD

GM is already out of some of them except in name.
And I just cant see Isle of Man or Malta justifying it (no offence to anyone from there, but well...)

How long til GM decides its just not worth it to re engineer and retool?

Australia
Channel Islands
Japan
Hong Kong
India
Isle of Man
Ireland
Jamaica
Kenya
Malta
Malaysia
New Zealand
South Africa
Singapore
Thailand
United Kingdom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-_...ion_by_country

Bossxr8 · 04-01-2019, 02:45 PM

GM has already pulled out of the UK, South Africa and India. We are basically the only market left that would buy Camaro. Nowhere near enough to justify rhd development dollars.

How long till GM even bother making any north american vehicles for rhd export?

jpd80 · 04-01-2019, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Yep. They stuffed it up so badly they had to increase production cause it’s selling so well. What a fail

.................................................. ...

Huh? The 2 litre ecoblue is outselling the 3.2 by a significant margin. Something like 75% of orders are ecoblue.

The idea that capacity is costing sales is garbage, cause most buyers are choosing the more powerful option.

Ohh, I thought that was still secret squirrel stuff Boss....
You know that Bent 8 is now going to say that's why the XLT 3.2s are so discounted...
or is it that they haven't had to order so many in a while...oh well, the more they try to slam the 2.0 Ecoblue..

roKWiz · 04-01-2019, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bathurst77

So heres a list of all countries with RHD

GM is already out of some of them except in name.
And I just cant see Isle of Man or Malta justifying it (no offence to anyone from there, but well...)

How long til GM decides its just not worth it to re engineer and retool?

Australia
Channel Islands
Japan
Hong Kong
India
Isle of Man
Ireland
Jamaica
Kenya
Malta
Malaysia
New Zealand
South Africa
Singapore
Thailand
United Kingdom

Sad really. More than half of those RHD countries listed are so restrictive with big engine performance cars now, it wouldn't be worth owning one.

Bossxr8 · 04-01-2019, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Ohh, I thought that was still secret squirrel stuff Boss....
You know that Bent 8 is now going to say that's why the XLT 3.2s are so discounted...
or is it that they haven't had to order so many in a while...oh well, the more they try to slam the 2.0 Ecoblue..

It is getting pretty sad. But dealers know the real truth.

jpd80 · 04-01-2019, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Sad really. More than half of those RHD countries listed are so restrictive with big engine performance cars now, it wouldn't be worth owning one.

Which is why something like a 2.0 Diesel Raptor works across so many RHD and LHD markets,
the cumulative sales makes the whole thing work, most of the RHD markets are actually Euro ECE design
which is also why Mustang can be designed once for RHD and job done for all those little markets.

December sales of Camaro in the USA were subdued to say the least, 3,755 sales and 50,963 for the year.

mike_nofx · 08-01-2019, 04:52 PM

Funniest part is how when Ford released the AU Falcon, Holden outsold then for the following 21 years.

How the AU design ever made it into production....

Syndrome · 08-01-2019, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

Funniest part is how when Ford released the AU Falcon, Holden outsold then for the following 21 years.

How the AU design ever made it into production....

Quiet mike_nofx! We are not allowed to criticise the AU on this forum!

MethodX · 08-01-2019, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Highly doubt it. The mustang is a global icon. Everyone knows what a mustang is. Camero much less so, and challenger even more so. I think you can write them both off as ever being factory rhd. GM have pulled out of most of the big rhd markets and will never get the numbers required to make rhd camaro’s. Dodge won’t get the numbers either, potential sales numbers just aren’t there.

The Camaro is pretty much an icon also, a long with the Corvette.
But yes GM has moved on from the markets .... unfortunately.

**DFB FGXR6** · 08-01-2019, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

How the AU design ever made it into production....

I LOVE the AU Falcon but I cant understand how that design passed through the various customer clinics and managerial viewings and then put into production.

vztrt · 08-01-2019, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

I LOVE the AU Falcon but I cant understand how that design passed through the various customer clinics and managerial viewings and then put into production.

I'd say it got to a point they couldn't turn back. Funny enough if you look at the concept drawings it was actually a good looking car. The problem is from drawing to production parts it can turn into what it was.

**fordomatic** · 08-01-2019, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

Funniest part is how when Ford released the AU Falcon, Holden outsold then for the following 21 years.

How the AU design ever made it into production....

You mean gods car right? The greatest Falcon ever built

Amen

smoo · 08-01-2019, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

All i can tell you is what i was told, im not sure why he'd make it up just for conversation and if its infact true, i doubt all those people who have this mindset would be central to his area, it would suggest its somewhat widespread.
The people making these comments and buying Dmax from him over Ranger aren't making up those 75% of 2.0l sales, nor the 25% of 3.2l sales either so they are still losing sales regardless of the actual numbers.

And i haven't chosen to leave anything out of the debate, but it would appear that if capacity alone is a sticking point with a percentage of the potential customer base, it would seem more likely that whats missing from the equation is their own homework.

A lack of homework and flawed way of thinking.

I have a work mate who has an older 2012 ish Hilux who refuses to buy a new one because it has a smaller engine. Obviously he is not alone in this neanderthal thinking.
The old 3.0 Hilux made slightly more power and torque than BMWs 2.0 four cylinder N47 diesel from around the year 2000 which was in the 1 & 3 Series. When that shape Hilux was launch BMWs 3.0 diesel was 160kw/500nm. Mercedes new OM642 3.0 V6 in 2005 was 165kw and 510nm.
Knuckle dragging die hard ute owners in Oz with their head too far up their **** to realise their highly inefficient Jap diesels are well behind the times.
I guess a similar perception was back in the early 1990s when the boat anchor 5.0 were pushing 165kw while Toyota and BMW dohc 4.0 V8s were 210kw.

Even now BMW 3.0 diesel range from 190kw/560nm all the way to 280kw/750nm, Mercedes 2.1 turbo diesel 150kw/500nm yet these mongs would rather stick to their archaic 'large capacity' diesel with performance and efficiency or lack of that belong in the 1990s.

If I were buying new and had the intention to hold onto it for a decade or so I'd be tempted to go smaller capacity as I wouldn't be surprised if the enviro push becomes stronger in the near future and taxes cars relative to their engine size, C02 output or claimed fuel use.

BENT_8 · 09-01-2019, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoo

A lack of homework and flawed way of thinking.

I have a work mate who has an older 2012 ish Hilux who refuses to buy a new one because it has a smaller engine. Obviously he is not alone in this neanderthal thinking.

Agreed and thats the point, its not up to the salesman of a rival brand to school his customers on the oppositions offerings.
The salesman who relayed this information to me works for a network which sells Isuzu, Toyota and Ford amongst others, however, not from the same yards, so i think it would be fair to say that they would have a reasonable level of inside knowledge of where people are spending their money.

If what you say about your work mate is correct, and i have no reason to doubt you as the sentiment fits exactly what i've been told by someone at the coal face, then there is obviously something there.
His thinking may well be flawed, but if thats what he thinks then so be it.

The question remains, is he an isolated case or is he just an example.

Venomous1 · 09-01-2019, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

Funniest part is how when Ford released the AU Falcon, Holden outsold then for the following 21 years.

How the AU design ever made it into production....

All you need to do is look at the Taurus architecture which is actually what they wanted to force on us.

It's a melding and twisting of the Taurus.

Falcon SXR8 · 09-01-2019, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoo

I have a work mate who has an older 2012 ish Hilux who refuses to buy a new one because it has a smaller engine. Obviously he is not alone in this neanderthal thinking.

Knuckle dragging die hard ute owners in Oz with their head too far up their **** to realise their highly inefficient Jap diesels are well behind the times.

Bossxr8 · 09-01-2019, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

I LOVE the AU Falcon but I cant understand how that design passed through the various customer clinics and managerial viewings and then put into production.

It got forced through the clinics even with hardly positive reviews. They knew it wasn't going to be well recieved. But Ford HQ was pushing new edge styling through and there wasn't much they could do about it.

Funny story in David Morley's Ford Vs Holden book about the media review. They pulled the sheet off the AU and were met with a big gasp and then deathly silence that he said felt like forever. Usually the journos will give a clap in appreciation, but they were just stunned at how crap it looked. He reckons you could hear a pin drop. Finally one of the Ford execs said something to try to break the silence. They were horrified at the reaction.

And some people still think they are god's gift to the automotive world

They are against the grain I will give them that

mike_nofx · 09-01-2019, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

It got forced through the clinics even with hardly positive reviews. They knew it wasn't going to be well recieved. But Ford HQ was pushing new edge styling through and there wasn't much they could do about it.

Funny story in David Morley's Ford Vs Holden book about the media review. They pulled the sheet off the AU and were met with a big gasp and then deathly silence that he said felt like forever. Usually the journos will give a clap in appreciation, but they were just stunned at how crap it looked. He reckons you could hear a pin drop. Finally one of the Ford execs said something to try to break the silence. They were horrified at the reaction.

And some people still think they are god's gift to the automotive world

They are against the grain I will give them that

Was it a Forte they unveiled for the first time? Or an XR or luxury model? (Which are slightly less hideous)