Spare the belt . . .

[DoreSlamR]

Here's an recent extreme example of not properly disciplining your kids:

The boys appeared in court yesterday accused of the attack which saw the victims, aged nine and 11, punched, kicked and slashed with a Stanley knife before being hurled down a steep slope in Edlington.

The pair appeared in court looking bored, and letting out the occasional giggle.

Clad in football shirts, without their families, the pair casually pulled faces with their hands.

The youngsters, aged ten and 11, were barely able to peer over the glass reinforced dock as the Crown prosecutor outlined the graphic and distressing events which have sent a wave of revulsion across the country.

Both children are charged with attempted murder and robbing the two boys of just £5 and a mobile phone.

The older boy suffered horrific head injuries and is still in hospital.

Yesterday, after a three-day police inquiry, the Crown Prosecution Service charged the brothers.

Link

[bathurst77]

I used to cop the belt big time by my dad when i was kid. i would have bruises etc.
These days he would be arrested for what he did, Im not sure how i feel about it years later.

I will say, I was tear away kid, a disruptive kid at schol and always in trouble. I would get caned a lot at school too. Hitting me with the belt or cane didnt stop me being disruptive etc.

Now Im a father and I have friends and family with kids. two of my best friends NEVER have hit their kids, but another friend i have does sometimes will smack his kids lightly.(but nothing like what i used to cop)

Of the 3 families the kids that are smacked are the worst behaved and cheekiest etc.

[SB076]

I got smacked when I was a kid by my parents and I am glad... The kids I know that didnt get smacked got belted by others later on in life (they seemed to think that they could do anything and get away with it)

Problem i have is if Judges starting telling parents how to discipline their children - you only have to have a look at some of the punishment they come up with for criminals which makes you shudder...

[bathurst77]

Originally Posted by DoreSlamR

Here's an recent extreme example of not properly disciplining your kids:




Link

Terrible event slammer, truely aweful.
but where does it say the kids were never properly disciplined?

perhaps the kids were brutalised? perhaps the kid has mental problems?

i have cousins, 2 brothers 2 sisters. they are all grown up in 30s and 40s now.

teh two girls and 1 man are all really great people. one works in a high power international career, the other two have families and happy lives.

one of the boys grew up a drug addict and a criminal. he has spent his whole life eiter in gaol or in hospital or in an alley.

so how did the parents who successfully raised the other 3 fail this one? why did the same attention and rules etc which raised 3 wonderful normal adults turn out one black sheep?

[ubute]

Maybe 4 hits with a belt for a 5 year old was a little too much, but I don't see much wrong with a litt ebit of reasonable physical discipline. It's a good way of emotionally associating bad behaviour with discomfort or pain, and works better than just words alone.

I copped my fair share of smacks, wooden spoons, wooden rulers and belt across the bum and hands. Even tho at the time it wasn't enjoyable I would never consider it going too far, never hated my parents for it, it actually gave me a bit more respect for them and their authority, now I have a great relationship with them as an adult.

I know the smacking was always the last resort and we were given plenty of warnings etc before it finally came to that, we knew what we were in for. It wasn't just a case of doing something wrong and getting a smack immediately, we were told what we did wrong and not to do it and if we continued then we got taught. There's a difference between indiscriminate smacking/belting and the combination of it as a last resort with other forms of discipline.

Most of the time just the threat of a smack, or being told to get a wooden spoon or belt was enough to make us stop as kids. It worked very well.

I always used to thing that getting my mouth washed out with soap for swearing was a bit of an empty threat tho, until we were over at a family friend's place and one of the kids was swearing. He was warned he'd be getting the soap and he replied pleading ly "Noo, not the blue soap". At the time I didn't know what was more shocking to me, that he'd actually had this done to him or that it happened often enough he knew which type of soap tasted the worst. Needless to say I didn't swear for a long while after that.

[DoreSlamR]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

Terrible event slammer, truely aweful.
but where does it say the kids were never properly disciplined?

perhaps the kids were brutalised? perhaps the kid has mental problems?

i have cousins, 2 brothers 2 sisters. they are all grown up in 30s and 40s now.

teh two girls and 1 man are all really great people. one works in a high power international career, the other two have families and happy lives.

one of the boys grew up a drug addict and a criminal. he has spent his whole life eiter in gaol or in hospital or in an alley.

so how did the parents who successfully raised the other 3 fail this one? why did the same attention and rules etc which raised 3 wonderful normal adults turn out one black sheep?

Actually you're right, my bad.

What it shows though is the lack of respect and no realisation of consequences.

Again, like the story in the OP, there is probably more to this then we know but at the end of the day the responsibility goes back to the parents.

I guess this is the angle I was leading to but you are definitely right, I made my own assumptions.

[Iggypoppin']

Maybe the mother is deceased, incapacitated or physically unable to care for a child. You know, sometimes there are single parents....

[OLDFORDNUT]

Originally Posted by RG

Just because the article says this, they most likely got that line straight from the defence lawyer mind you, does not make it so.

Trust me when I say that there would have been a LOT more than just this happening for them to decide to take her away.

I TOTALLY disagree with you ,
In this day and age you dont have to do anything wrong to be judged guilty by the do gooders who work for Child welfare,
they are a Law unto themelves.
yet the same people who took this girl away would leave a little kid in the hands of a drug addict mother who hardly feeds or cares what the kids are doing while spaced out on the lounge,most likely because she is a female.
you can bet this blokes a single parent.

[steamin63]

Originally Posted by RG

Just because the article says this, they most likely got that line straight from the defence lawyer mind you, does not make it so.

Trust me when I say that there would have been a LOT more than just this happening for them to decide to take her away.

and how do you know what the facts are. are you personally involved in this case or do you blindly believe [like a lot of other people] that the system works and it protects kids.
my old neighbors had both of their boys [aged 9 and 12] taken off them and sent to separate foster families 2 years ago. their crime, the eldest boy pushed the youngest boy while playing footy in the back yard and he broke his arm. they have only just recently [this x-mas] received visitation rights. cheers.

[AUIIForte]

Good call Mr. Cavanagh:
"In this modern age, physical punishment of children is seen to be barbaric," he said.

So what do we do? Just let them be little rascals? Let them grow up thinking that if they do bad, they wont get punished? Sorry, but you are a green hippy tree hugging son of a B_tch who just says and does things in public to make your self more 'credible' and 'likeable'...

If a kid gets out of line, you show him/her the line. You know, tell him/her did the wrong thing and blah blah... They do it again, angry face and angry tone... They do it again, its time for the wooden spoon on the ***.

There's no other way to properly discipline a kid...

And if there is, Mr. douche-bag-Cavanagh, show us the way to do it!

[MO]

Cavanagh is known for erratic judgements and imo has spent far too long at the bench.
A leather belt folded over will make more noise than harm when it hits.
The do gooders are going to regret it one day when one of the little darlings comes back to assault,rape,maim or kill one of them.
I shall stop now...you know the rest.

[BIGJB]

I am all for smacking kids.

Lets take a trip down memory lane.
I was fair little bast... when I was younger. (when I knew I could get away with it)
In our day (those of us over 30) when you got out of line at school
ya got the cane. But worse than that ya had to spend the rest of the
day stressing about what ya father was gunna do to ya when ya got
home because you got the cane at school.
If it wasn't for this form of discipline I am certain that I would be in jail now.
It taught us boundaries. We knew with out a doubt where the line was and
I for one would stop and think about what I was about to do b4 I did it.
You would mentally weigh it up as to whether or not it was worth the punishment.

As an adult I find myself the father of 3 (which I know longer see, which is another story all together)
But when I still saw the kids every fortnight they would arrive at our place totally out of control.
They lived in a situation where they were never disciplined at home
or at school. If they did something wrong in either of these places they were made to sit in
the "RESPONSIBLE THINKING CHAIR". (lets keep in mind the the boys were 5 and 7 at this point)
At our place how ever they were given a quick kick up the a$$ and I can tell you after the
1st couple of hours they were very well behaved for the rest of their stay.

Have a look around at the decline of society. The out of control youths vandalising
public property bashing people within an inch of their lives or worse.
This didn't happen in our day (or very very rarely).
So what we now end up with is a generation of people who have no idea of boundaries
and at a very young age end up in jail with no idea as to why they ended up there because
they simply don't understand the repercussions of their actions.

I have recently moved to NZ and they are bringing back the legallity to smack children here
as they finally realised that taking these rights away from parents has had ill effects on
the moral ethics and self control of the countries children.

At the end of the day I believe that it is up to the descretion of parents tpo decide what
works to discipline their own children. Every child is different. It is a waste of time smacking
my eldest son as it stops nothing. But in saying that with him I sit down and explain what he
has done wrong why it is wrong and why he shouldn't do it.

But the way I see it it's better that they are smaked and learn right from wrong and consequences
than to end up in jail.


*RANT OFF*

[RG]

Originally Posted by OLDFORDNUT

I TOTALLY disagree with you ,
In this day and age you dont have to do anything wrong to be judged guilty by the do gooders who work for Child welfare,
they are a Law unto themelves.
yet the same people who took this girl away would leave a little kid in the hands of a drug addict mother who hardly feeds or cares what the kids are doing while spaced out on the lounge,most likely because she is a female.
you can bet this blokes a single parent.

My partner works in Child Welfare, she is no monster and removing children from their parents is ALWAYS a last resort so I'd be very very careful what I say about these "do-gooders" If I were you. You know NO facts, have NO knowledge and are ranting for the sake of ranting.

Originally Posted by steamin63

and how do you know what the facts are. are you personally involved in this case or do you blindly believe [like a lot of other people] that the system works and it protects kids.
my old neighbors had both of their boys [aged 9 and 12] taken off them and sent to separate foster families 2 years ago. their crime, the eldest boy pushed the youngest boy while playing footy in the back yard and he broke his arm. they have only just recently [this x-mas] received visitation rights. cheers.

Oh you know the facts do you? Well share then please.


Sorry you don't? Oh what a shame, I don't blindly believe that the system works. I get a decent look at it every night it comes home. If you really think that that was the only reason those kids were taken then you need to have a good look at the systems and procedures in place that are involved with the removal of children from families. I can guarantee you that there would have been more to that, what goes on in private behind closed doors neighbours often don't even know about.


Anymore BS ranty rubbish will see this thread locked.

[GT0336]

Originally Posted by 99GHIA

I am all for smacking kids.

Lets take a trip down memory lane.
I was fair little bast... when I was younger. (when I knew I could get away with it)
In our day (those of us over 30) when you got out of line at school
ya got the cane. But worse than that ya had to spend the rest of the
day stressing about what ya father was gunna do to ya when ya got
home because you got the cane at school.
If it wasn't for this form of discipline I am certain that I would be in jail now.
It taught us boundaries. We knew with out a doubt where the line was and
I for one would stop and think about what I was about to do b4 I did it.
You would mentally weigh it up as to whether or not it was worth the punishment.

As an adult I find myself the father of 3 (which I know longer see, which is another story all together)
But when I still saw the kids every fortnight they would arrive at our place totally out of control.
They lived in a situation where they were never disciplined at home
or at school. If they did something wrong in either of these places they were made to sit in
the "RESPONSIBLE THINKING CHAIR". (lets keep in mind the the boys were 5 and 7 at this point)
At our place how ever they were given a quick kick up the a$$ and I can tell you after the
1st couple of hours they were very well behaved for the rest of their stay.

Have a look around at the decline of society. The out of control youths vandalising
public property bashing people within an inch of their lives or worse.
This didn't happen in our day (or very very rarely).
So what we now end up with is a generation of people who have no idea of boundaries
and at a very young age end up in jail with no idea as to why they ended up there because
they simply don't understand the repercussions of their actions.

I have recently moved to NZ and they are bringing back the legallity to smack children here
as they finally realised that taking these rights away from parents has had ill effects on
the moral ethics and self control of the countries children.

At the end of the day I believe that it is up to the descretion of parents tpo decide what
works to discipline their own children. Every child is different. It is a waste of time smacking
my eldest son as it stops nothing. But in saying that with him I sit down and explain what he
has done wrong why it is wrong and why he shouldn't do it.

But the way I see it it's better that they are smaked and learn right from wrong and consequences
than to end up in jail.


*RANT OFF*

I totally agree, I have 4 kids, 2 of my own and 2 i don't like the term but step kids. When I met the kids they were out of control, not discipline and were having major issues. I'm not a hard father but children need discipline and boundaries, my kids have had a complete turnaround. No one has the right to take a child from a good home because they were smacked. I believe not disciplining your children is child abuse.

[Yellow_Festiva]

If more parents took a firmer stance on discipline it would make my job a whole lot easier as a teacher.

For the first time EVER this year I have had a girl UNDER 5 years old reply to a request with "No, I CHOOSE NOT to do that". Wonder who taught them this??

In the 7 years I have been infront of children there have been countless instances where I have been close to grabbing a student by the neck (Homer Simpson style) and shaking some respect into them. (Mostly because they get away with murder at home and carry on that behaviour in the class).

If parents took a more proactive role in home discipline kids WILL be better behaved in general. If this means a smack or beating for serious issues than so be it.

Parents / and teachers are being taught the "PC, softly softly approach" for addressing children when they muck up "Do you think your behaviour is acceptable?".. "How do you think others feel with your behaviour?"...

What a joke....

[Auslandau]

Just a quick little story on how the system works ......

Good friend of ours was at Safeway in the car park with a trolly load and 3 kids, oldest 5. One is a little terror ...... putting the kids in the car, the terror kept climbiing out and running away eveytime she went to strap in the next in.

This happened 3 times and grabbing him as he ran down the road .... fed up she gave him a tap on the bum and yelled at him very firmly (she isn't a quiet one!) as cars was everywhere and she was getting very fustrated, worried etc.

Some women was watching this go on ....... not offering any help to stop the kid from running off, she went home, rang the authorites and next day they had a visit from welfare. Not a nice thing to happen and were guilty from the offset. They had to prove they were worthy parents???

They intervied them excessivly, the husband and wife, they had to go to the office .... wherever..... and take statements ..... they had constant visits and both were warned from the start that there is a possiblility that kids can be taken away in these situations.

THe effects on this family was devistating ..... absolutley devistating. This went on for 2 months .... in the end were told, "Yes you are good parents with normal kids and there will be no more investigations."

This is my only experience with welfare and spent a lot of time with the family while this was going on. All for giving a kid a verbal going over and a smack on the bum.

Yes, to hit a kid with a strap is massively over the top ..... but the heavy handedness from the system, in the case I mentioned, can be a concern. Kids removed has to be the last thing on their minds as this has a permenant effect. I would imagine that it is the last resort, but seeing how things were done it was nearly the opposite.

I beleive that the welfare departments could be too quick to act, as when they don't and things happen, there is absolute hell to pay. They may err on the side of caution ...... damned if you do, damned if you don't



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[cant]

There are TOO MANY DOO GOODERS out there, as said Kids get away with blue murder these days, sure they have rights, but what about mine as a parent? :

I mean I am legally liable for these little versions of ME,
and as much as I love them : dearly sometimes they send me : .

Ok, a SMACK occasionally goes a long way, and dont they dramatise the hell out of it when you do! one could easily think id taken to them with an electric cow prod the way they cary on, and then 2min later they think they deserve an ice cream,what the? :

Remember when if the local copper caught you, you were more AFRAID of being taken home than taken to the lock up, cause you knew the FLOGGING that awaited you when you got home?

There is a line, and its easy to dramatise a smack to a 3-6yo, goodluck working out where that line is.

To the AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT, "BUILD MORE PRISONS" AND GET THOSE VODKA SWILLING MAGISTRATES TO GO THE HARD LINE A BIT MORE OFFTEN !

SUSPENDED SENTANCES for repeat offenders, so they can be rebilitated ! your JOKING !

HAPPY EASTER to all the BIG and Little kiddies out there.

[Spudz27]

Originally Posted by auslandau

Just a quick little story on how the system works ......

Good friend of ours was at Safeway in the car park with a trolly load and 3 kids, oldest 5. One is a little terror ...... putting the kids in the car, the terror kept climbiing out and running away eveytime she went to strap in the next in.

This happened 3 times and grabbing him as he ran down the road .... fed up she gave him a tap on the bum and yelled at him very firmly (she isn't a quiet one!) as cars was everywhere and she was getting very fustrated, worried etc.

Some women was watching this go on ....... not offering any help to stop the kid from running off, she went home, rang the authorites and next day they had a visit from welfare. Not a nice thing to happen and were guilty from the offset. They had to prove they were worthy parents???

They intervied them excessivly, the husband and wife, they had to go to the office .... wherever..... and take statements ..... they had constant visits and both were warned from the start that there is a possiblility that kids can be taken away in these situations.

THe effects on this family was devistating ..... absolutley devistating. This went on for 2 months .... in the end were told, "Yes you are good parents with normal kids and there will be no more investigations."

This is my only experience with welfare and spent a lot of time with the family while this was going on. All for giving a kid a verbal going over and a smack on the bum.

Yes, to hit a kid with a strap is massively over the top ..... but the heavy handedness from the system, in the case I mentioned, can be a concern. Kids removed has to be the last thing on their minds as this has a permenant effect. I would imagine that it is the last resort, but seeing how things were done it was nearly the opposite.

I beleive that the welfare departments could be too quick to act, as when they don't and things happen, there is absolute hell to pay. They may err on the side of caution ...... damned if you do, damned if you don't

This is exactly why when in public I do not smack my daughter, and god knows as I said in my previous post it can be so hard not to. She is a good girl 95% of the time but there are those moments she wants a lollie or to go on the ride thing (I wish those didn't exist in shops) then she has a tantrum, which is embarrassing as it makes it look as though your child is a ****.

And again quoting my first post, same deal with the toilet. I can't take my daughter to the toilet thanks to the general public, god knows what would happen me taking a little girl into the toilets. I have had to do it once or twice and the looks I get are enough to make you want to kill yourself. I had to take her to the toilet one day at a cafe, I got stared at the whole way to the toilet and back again.

But then there are nice people in the public. At the same cafe a lady commented on how good of parents myself and my mrs must be to have a daughter who just sits at the table and never mucks around or makes a fuss.

[3vXT]

I'm getting comfortable on the fence with this one but just out of curiosity, to those that do give their kids the occasional smack, what do you do if doesn't work? I'm sure it does work most of the time but i've been around long enough to see that its not always effective so whats the next step?

[Spudz27]

Originally Posted by ken2903

I'm getting comfortable on the fence with this one but just out of curiosity, to those that do give their kids the occasional smack, what do you do if doesn't work? I'm sure it does work most of the time but i've been around long enough to see that its not always effective so whats the next step?

We smack her and send her to her room if we are at home. There is not often a smack doesn't work. I yell loud enough to usually avoid the smack anyway lol.

[BIGJB]

I gotta tell ya it's not often I even had to smack them.
Most of the time all I would have to say is no more or
I take my belt off. That threat alone would normally stop em
in their tracks.
But on the odd occasion smacking didn't work bed with tea or watching
their other siblings eat dessert without them normally did the trick.

[Auslandau]

Can't remember when a smack on the bum didnt work .......... was the last straw and at that stage, they knew it was coming and many times never had to follow through with it. As said, its more the threat! It usually was followed by something else though, no desert, no treats or bed early.



| [/url] |

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by EDfutura25

I can't take my daughter to the toilet thanks to the general public, god knows what would happen me taking a little girl into the toilets. I have had to do it once or twice and the looks I get are enough to make you want to kill yourself. I had to take her to the toilet one day at a cafe, I got stared at the whole way to the toilet and back again.

You sound like you have a complex ?
I will take my two year old daughter to the toilet in public whenever required.
I don't know if people look (or care for that matter) i'm too busy looking after my child.
The alternative is send your little girl in on her own ?...not gonna happen in my world.

[Falcon Coupe]

On the discipline topic, my children are taught respect and manners, they are occasionally given a smack if required but overall are quite well behaved.

My neighbors children have very little discipline and are rude obnoxious brats, their 5 year old goes to kinder with mine, even at this age the teacher has suggested we separate them at school as the other boy is a disruptive influence on mine.

Example, neighbor's 7 year old requires four fillings for cavity's, the Dentist is unable to do it as the brat refuses to open her mouth and parents have no control to make her :

If the correct values are not taught to them from a young age i believe there is little chance of reversing the spiral as they get older.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

On the discipline topic, my children are taught respect and manners, they are occasionally given a smack if required but overall are quite well behaved.

My neighbors children have very little discipline and are rude obnoxious brats, their 5 year old goes to kinder with mine, even at this age the teacher has suggested we separate them at school as the other boy is a disruptive influence on mine.

Example, neighbor's 7 year old requires four fillings for cavity's, the Dentist is unable to do it as the brat refuses to open her mouth and parents have no control to make her :

If the correct values are not taught to them from a young age i believe there is little chance of reversing the spiral as they get older.

while i do not have kids, i would agree with this

i have only read the first few posts in this thread, and obviously none of us were there, so no one knew what happened. a belt for a five year old seems excessive to me. kids need to respect their parents, not fear them - they need to fear the consequences of wrong actions though

i would think that nurturing and discipline are the way to go - they need boundaries and they need to know there are penalties when the boundaries are crossed. if they are taught respect from an early age, the boundaries will probably be crossed far less often

and like a puppy, a child who is given attention, generally doesn't play up to receive it. when attention is craved, they will do anything to be noticed

[Tuddy200]

Anybody want to know what happens when parents, even the grandparents take it too far? Come visit my home. I still live with my parents, who have been foster carers for 6 years, my grandparents, have retired after 20+ years and are looking to go back.

Most children are removed on drugs/acholism within the family, or parents/partners being violent towards each other. However, it can sometime and has been alot worse.

My family looks after two little boys. One was looked after by us from birth as he was born prem, mother only 16 father, in 30s and other few issues I wont mention here, just read above. Judge decided couple months later to send back to parents, within the month that same child was in the Royal Childrens Hospital with serious head injuries, lucky to be still living today at 4.5 years old.

2nd child we look after, much the same but with grandparents, not as bad, but his arm will never look normal or be straight again after many surgies. In both these cases, both children were under 1 year old, so could hardly steal, do drugs etc, the excuse or situation given to police before this happened, was the child was crying, as they all do. Nobody has been charged, because no one will own up to whom caused the injuries.

Do not get me wrong, smacking children is fine. No way would I let a teacher/police/whoever dish out punishment like the cane on my children because I don't know if they know where the line is and when they cross it. Half the parents out there don't know where that line is. Smack your kids on the bum, fine, go further, and you are just taking the easy way out.

Most posts I have read hear indicate that after you child gets a smack, they are usually good, nor do you often have to give them one in the first place. You people say you were scared about the 'flogging' you'd get, is right, you scared of getting beaten, not scared of doing wrong. What's so wrong with sitting the child down and explaining things with them, seems to have worked for the 95% of people who have posted here.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Tuddy200

You people say you were scared about the 'flogging' you'd get, is right, you scared of getting beaten, not scared of doing wrong. What's so wrong with sitting the child down and explaining things with them, seems to have worked for the 95% of people who have posted here.

have you ever told a 1yr old not to do something only to have them look you in the eye and do exactly that. there is only 1 language they understand at that age. speak to anyone born pre 1960 and they'll tell you the way it was and should be. any decent parent not under the influence of anything only ever disciplines out of love. lessons learned in the first few years are very important.

[steamin63]

Originally Posted by RG

Oh you know the facts do you? Well share then please.


Sorry you don't? Oh what a shame, I don't blindly believe that the system works. I get a decent look at it every night it comes home. If you really think that that was the only reason those kids were taken then you need to have a good look at the systems and procedures in place that are involved with the removal of children from families. I can guarantee you that there would have been more to that, what goes on in private behind closed doors neighbours often don't even know about.


Anymore BS ranty rubbish will see this thread locked.

i was never so arrogant as to claim i KNEW the facts. i don't. but you never answered the question. DO YOU KNOW THE FACTS. as for the couple that lost their two boys i do know the facts. i've known them personally for a number of years and they are victims of a system that failed both them and their boys.
and by the way my cousin is a councilor for the dept of family services here in qld and "i can guarantee you" that i have heard stories first hand of what goes on behind the scenes. pm me i'd love to chat.

[cant]

The SYSTEM is there to help, but far too many ignor it, or wont be helped. Their choice, after all, the world is full of choices.

I WILL TRY BEING NICER, WHEN YOU TRY BEING SMARTER, is a good one that gets mine to stop and think about not only why I am being GRUMPY with them (their words )and gets them to THINK about their actions also.

If only i could referance that instruction manual they SHOULD have come with?

[bd737]

Originally Posted by prydey

have you ever told a 1yr old not to do something only to have them look you in the eye and do exactly that. there is only 1 language they understand at that age. speak to anyone born pre 1960 and they'll tell you the way it was and should be. any decent parent not under the influence of anything only ever disciplines out of love. lessons learned in the first few years are very important.

Agree entirely. Dr Phil said something similar to this, being that once a child reaches certain ages/levels of development & maturity, you have to change your approach altogether. You don't 'negotiate'/reason with them until they're near their tween years.