Ford Covers it's *** nicely - Page 2

fmc351 · 27-10-2010, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darcati

This is the ideal resolution, and Fords database could reflect this and even if purchasing the car privately Ford could for a fee advise the status of the car regarding warranty.

Dont let the dealer play his little violin about Ford not coming to the party. They make money from selling cars, you earn said money I assume the hard way like the rest of us, including the dealer. You did the smart thing by buying with warranty from a dealer that is supposed to be safer than private, not only did you pay for a car, you also paid a premium above the car price for that security.

geckoGT · 27-10-2010, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fmc351

Dont let the dealer play his little violin about Ford not coming to the party. They make money from selling cars, you earn said money I assume the hard way like the rest of us, including the dealer. You did the smart thing by buying with warranty from a dealer that is supposed to be safer than private, not only did you pay for a car, you also paid a premium above the car price for that security.

Exactly, even the dealers make a song and dance about how it is safer buying from a dealer. Time to live up to the legend I think.

FGII-XR6 · 27-10-2010, 02:35 PM

I have been told this by 2 service managers
the warranty can't be voided by performing modifications unless the manufacturer can prove the modification caused the failure. An opinion is not legal reason to void the warranty the modification would need to either be excessive alteration of mechanical parts and/or proven by an independant engineer to be the direct cause of the failure. This comes from a Ford service manager and a Toyota service manager

in reality a flash tune is nothing more than changing things we could change on old school cars like timing. Ford are bluffing and will cave in if you assert yourself they would loose in court and know it but if they can reduce claims by bluffing they will try it on till you take them on

as the car was bought secondhand you have a second option you purchased the car with no visable modifications with X months of factory warranty, your contract to purchase included the remaining warranty as an original factory item . your contract to purchase makes the dealer liable to cover the warranty to factory standard if ford didn't have to cover it ( which the do )

take them on and watch them back down

good luck

Bobman · 27-10-2010, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darcati

The fault with the motor is minor but has the potential of being a very expensive exercise should the car suffer some sort of major failure and Ford dont come to the party.

If it's minor and has potential of being very expensive, then I'd suggest to stop driving it.

Can you elaborate on the exact problem? Might be better off repairing it yourself as getting a dealer to repair it under warranty could just end up with more problems!

fmc351 · 27-10-2010, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobman

If it's minor and has potential of being very expensive, then I'd suggest to stop driving it.

Can you elaborate on the exact problem? Might be better off repairing it yourself as getting a dealer to repair it under warranty could just end up with more problems!

Im not sure how he'd go with this, but considering he paid for warranty, and a dealership premium, Id be wanting another car. They can send this one to the wholesalers and let it sell for what its worth.

Pedro · 27-10-2010, 03:15 PM

If Ford started knocking back warranties because a car has been flashed at some time in its life, it could raise a hypothetical scenario where you go to trade your car in, and the dealer says,
“Just a minute, I have to check if it’s ever been flashed”.
“Oh! It has been. Sorry, our trade-in offer has to be reduced $5k to cover our Rs for the next purchaser”.

**DJM83** · 27-10-2010, 03:19 PM

Not a second hand car but a similar dilemma with an slightly modded XR5 and busted radiator
Link
Shows you the extent some will go to to void a warranty.

fmc351 · 27-10-2010, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedro

If Ford started knocking back warranties because a car has been flashed at some time in its life, it could raise a hypothetical scenario where you go to trade your car in, and the dealer says,
“Just a minute, I have to check if it’s ever been flashed”.
“Oh! It has been. Sorry, our trade-in offer has to be reduced $5k to cover our Rs for the next purchaser”.

And? Thats how it should be, and then sold without the balance of new car warranty reducing the price the dealer gets too. If flash tuning voids warranty, then why should everyone else pay for he guy who wants to flash tune? If your argument is that flash tuning shouldnt void warranty then thats a different debate.

Den76 · 27-10-2010, 03:48 PM

very interesting dilemma, this will defenatley be a precident for all vehicle buyers

sounds like false advertising to me given the dealer sold a vehicle with full warranty but not knowing the extent of mods preformed.

fmc351 · 27-10-2010, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJM83

Not a second hand car but a similar dilemma with an slightly modded XR5 and busted radiator
Link
Shows you the extent some will go to to void a warranty.

Is that barnesy fellow a member here? Nice offer on the radiator.

After all that, its RACQ that come to the party.

Fiesta God · 27-10-2010, 04:07 PM

Dealer has duty of care to ensure the vehicle is in a suitable condition that would allow the warranty to operate.

Dealer has failed to do this, and has been negligent in not ensuring the car was unmodified and thus would be covered by the warranty with which it was sold.

IMO the dealer is the one liable and will need to be covering the reasonable cost of repairing the vehicle. Asking the dealer to take the vehicle back is too much (IMO) but returning the car to a standard tune, and repairing any mechanical damage would be the outcome I would be looking for as the purchaser.

Dealer purchases vehicle, offers warranty and advertises vehicle with warranty. Purchaser would reasonably expect in that situation to have a "warrantable event" (i.e. failure of major engine component, driveline) covered, unless THEY had contributed to the loss/damage (which they have not).

Duty of dilligence is on the dealer in this situation. If the dealer does not have the required equipment to test for re-tunes, then pay someone who does or don't offer a warranty with the vehicle.

**DJM83** · 27-10-2010, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fmc351

Is that barnesy fellow a member here? Nice offer on the radiator.

After all that, its RACQ that come to the party.

PM Sent

4Vman · 27-10-2010, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedro

If Ford started knocking back warranties because a car has been flashed at some time in its life, it could raise a hypothetical scenario where you go to trade your car in, and the dealer says,
“Just a minute, I have to check if it’s ever been flashed”.
“Oh! It has been. Sorry, our trade-in offer has to be reduced $5k to cover our Rs for the next purchaser”.

Yep, surely dealers would check this stuff, can't reneg after the sale...

I would have thought all dealers check for flashes before trading? And walk away from flashed cars?

GTpilot · 27-10-2010, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by au3xr6

I have been told this by 2 service managers
the warranty can't be voided by performing modifications unless the manufacturer can prove the modification caused the failure. An opinion is not legal reason to void the warranty the modification would need to either be excessive alteration of mechanical parts and/or proven by an independant engineer to be the direct cause of the failure. This comes from a Ford service manager and a Toyota service manager

in reality a flash tune is nothing more than changing things we could change on old school cars like timing. Ford are bluffing and will cave in if you assert yourself they would loose in court and know it but if they can reduce claims by bluffing they will try it on till you take them on

as the car was bought secondhand you have a second option you purchased the car with no visable modifications with X months of factory warranty, your contract to purchase included the remaining warranty as an original factory item . your contract to purchase makes the dealer liable to cover the warranty to factory standard if ford didn't have to cover it ( which the do )

take them on and watch them back down

good luck

I have ben told the same thing by several Ford service managers and sales guys. The problem is Yes, a flash tune essentially is no different to what Every mechanic used to do in the days of points/rotors and a dizzy everytime a car was serviced.

However the arguement can be made that by Flash tuning you are modifying the car from its factory state that the manufacturer warrants. such could be the case that the manufacrturer specifies timing to be set at 10deg and you or your mechanic advance it to 20. Then come back for warranty on a smashed valve and piston.

At the end onf the day, how it stands up in court would be a very grey area, and possibly come down to who has the most time and money to spend. It then becomes a point of do I spent 10k in court costs and time to argue a 5k fix. this is what Ford banks on.

geckoGT · 27-10-2010, 04:24 PM

This could actually get very ugly.

Imagine you are trading your car, say a XR6T that was tuned, injectors, IC etc but all this has been removed and the vehicle returned to stock.

Whilst looking at it in order to give a price the dealer asks if it has ever had a flash tune, you now have an obligation to openly disclose that information when asked. To give false information in order to sell and item is an offence.

Every dealer we talked to about trade price on the SP always had the car for quite some time, normally while we had a coffee. I wonder if they were getting the service guys to scan it for flash tunes?

GTP-03 · 27-10-2010, 04:28 PM

get the person whos traded the car to sign a stat dec that it hasnt been modified and that they can be sued for the cost of any repairs, simple!

FPV8U · 27-10-2010, 04:29 PM

In this case 100% on the dealers shoulders one would think.

Although i had read elsewhere that the Flash count was more or less a "rumor" spread by Ford Service Techs to put people off Flash tuning, who knows really.

stang65 · 27-10-2010, 04:32 PM

My view is the only person who needs to honour the warranty is the dealer. They sold it with warranty and it`s past is irrelevant.

If I bought a 5 year old car out of factory warranty but was sold by a dealer and they gave me a 6 month warranty and something went wrong in the 6 months the dealer would be responsible.

The dealer made the profit on selling a second hand car not ford.

geckoGT · 27-10-2010, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTpilot

I have ben told the same thing by several Ford service managers and sales guys. The problem is Yes, a flash tune essentially is no different to what Every mechanic used to do in the days of points/rotors and a dizzy everytime a car was serviced.

However the arguement can be made that by Flash tuning you are modifying the car from its factory state that the manufacturer warrants. such could be the case that the manufacrturer specifies timing to be set at 10deg and you or your mechanic advance it to 20. Then come back for warranty on a smashed valve and piston.

At the end onf the day, how it stands up in court would be a very grey area, and possibly come down to who has the most time and money to spend. It then becomes a point of do I spent 10k in court costs and time to argue a 5k fix. this is what Ford banks on.

Not only that, the burden of proof is pretty easy in these circumstances. They do not have to prove beyond doubt that the tune caused the failure, they just have to prove the tune caused the failure in the balance of probability. That is my understanding and that is the advice I got, perhaps some of our more knowledgeable members could comment on this.

Two good examples are from my modestly modified old XR8. It had a flash tune which Ford knew about. When the diff bush died they would not change it under warranty as they said the tune and the shift mod (speeds up the auto shifts) placed extra strain on the diff bush contributing to the failure. I had to foot the bill for that one. When the timing chain adjusters went they initially said no to warranty because of the mods but then I pointed out that I knew of dozens of other XR8's, many of which were standard that had the same issue and that I could provide proof. The quickly agreed it was a known problem and that they would cover it under warranty and replace the plastic tensioners with the new metal ones.

darcati · 27-10-2010, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV8U

In this case 100% on the dealers shoulders one would think.

Although i had read elsewhere that the Flash count was more or less a "rumor" spread by Ford Service Techs to put people off Flash tuning, who knows really.

I was told the car had been re-flashed 40+ times, I cant remember the exact number. That could be flashing it back to std updating when being tuned who knows. I asked the original dealer where I purchased the vehicle and the recent dealer if they could tell if the car was flashed and both said no they cant only Ford could. I had taken the car in for warranty repairs and the ford tech just happened to be there on the day.

GTpilot · 27-10-2010, 04:55 PM

there are several Members here that work for Ford dealers, some quite high in the chain, It would be nice if one of them were to put this "can they tell it's been Flashed" rumour to bed.
Come on guys, surely one of you are reading this....

darcati · 27-10-2010, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobman

If it's minor and has potential of being very expensive, then I'd suggest to stop driving it.

Can you elaborate on the exact problem? Might be better off repairing it yourself as getting a dealer to repair it under warranty could just end up with more problems!

Sorry, I haven't explained myself properly, the current fault is stalling which it does intermittently when coming to a stop. I meant to say that at the moment it's a minor fault but what happens IF the car suffers a catastrophic engine failure( knock on wood) what would happen then was my point.

I'd be really surprised if Ford isnt monitoring these forums, they should be and I recommend they look at this seriously as It really dissappoints me that there is no protection to consumers but Ford in it's bid to waive resonsibility have sprayed themselves with "teflon".

Bucknaked · 27-10-2010, 05:07 PM

If there is the flash counter and it recorded the date the ECU changed, if it's before the date then the dealer would know it was not done by the new owner.

fmc351 · 27-10-2010, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Not only that, the burden of proof is pretty easy in these circumstances. They do not have to prove beyond doubt that the tune caused the failure, they just have to prove the tune caused the failure in the balance of probability. That is my understanding and that is the advice I got, perhaps some of our more knowledgeable members could comment on this.

Two good examples are from my modestly modified old XR8. It had a flash tune which Ford knew about. When the diff bush died they would not change it under warranty as they said the tune and the shift mod (speeds up the auto shifts) placed extra strain on the diff bush contributing to the failure. I had to foot the bill for that one. When the timing chain adjusters went they initially said no to warranty because of the mods but then I pointed out that I knew of dozens of other XR8's, many of which were standard that had the same issue and that I could provide proof. The quickly agreed it was a known problem and that they would cover it under warranty and replace the plastic tensioners with the new metal ones.

Correct, civil matters are decided on 'balance of probablities', not 'reasonable doubt'. However, that is not such a low standard as it may imply. They would need to make an argument based on technical specifics, not simply say flash tune, car works harder, ergo, no warranty. There could be equally reasonable explanations the flash tune is less likely to cause said issue than say metal fatigue due to poor materials.

Many of these issues re: warranty are already sorted. An example is the insurance ombudsman, telecommunications ombudsman etc. An ombudsman is established when there is a significant need. But there is Fair Trading etc for the various matters that are less frequent to necessitate the need for an ombudsman. Courts do not like having their time wasted settling matters that are well established. Its not simply a matter of saying, nup, not gonna cover it, take us to court. The court will frown on the refusal if the aspect of law is well established, and Ford/Dealer would cop all costs and may face punitive damages on top of ordinary damages. They might bluff, but unlikely to let it get to the point where a court date is set.

Thats asisde from the negative publicity.

WMD351 · 27-10-2010, 05:34 PM

I can't help but think about stolen property or counterfeit money reading this thread. With those things, it doesn't matter how many times they're passed around in legitimate transactions and/or good faith by people who don't know, it's a game of musical chairs and when the music stops it's the person in possession at the time who looses and is out of pocket.
Maybe I'm way off track, it's just a thought.

FGII-XR6 · 27-10-2010, 07:50 PM

you are way off base as nothing illegal has been done it is just a simple retuning of the car

Quote:

Originally Posted by WMD351

I can't help but think about stolen property or counterfeit money reading this thread. With those things, it doesn't matter how many times they're passed around in legitimate transactions and/or good faith by people who don't know, it's a game of musical chairs and when the music stops it's the person in possession at the time who looses and is out of pocket.
Maybe I'm way off track, it's just a thought.

mrbaxr6t · 28-10-2010, 06:19 PM

this is a massive can of worms and it will only get uglier heres a hypothetical argument you have an xr6 turbo (BA) and the year is 2045 making it around 40 year old car, it needs a cat so you fit one but Ford have discontinued the part so you are forced into buying aftermarket and fitting the aftermarket cat alters the boost curve and makes its tune unsafe, but because of things like this happening in the past nobody will flash tune it as the procedure has been completely outlawed, so you have a car that is in perfect mechanical condition, but cannot be used because the ECU cant be flashed to compensate for the alteration. I sincerely hope it doesn't come to this and the dealer sold the car with warranty so I fail to see how Ford can be held accountable unless it was a "FORD used car warranty" in which case they have a heavy barrow to wheel up a very large hill imho..

WMD351 · 28-10-2010, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by au3xr6

you are way off base as nothing illegal has been done it is just a simple retuning of the car

Yeah I admitted I'm way of track, but just putting forward an alternative viewpoint to consider. Sometimes in life you get caught holding the hot potato and it burns you.
As far as I'm concerned something illegal has been done here, the dealer has misrepresented what he has sold, and as such I think it should come back onto him to live up to his end of the deal.
He can't check everything? I don't know about any argument for the dealer doing his duty costing us all more at the end of the day, the OP has already paid a premium price in order to be protected from this sort of thing IMO

mik · 28-10-2010, 10:34 PM

maybe the thread should have been titled ........... dealer covers its *** nicely,

Mr_4.0 · 29-10-2010, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xtremerus

Warranty with any product, firstly is on the retailer to fix. It is their responsibility to fix a problem.
What happens between retailer and the manufacturer is nothing to do with the customer, and is not their problem. The retailer still has the main responsibility to fix problems.

exactly! they sold the car with balance of warrantee. they must hold it up, even if ford hasnt got their back, as the dealership inspected the car before you bought it.