US Automotive bailout fails in US Senate

[Martys-Bionic-XR]

as much as i hate to say it.

DONT LEAVE HOLDEN...pleeeease

[Trek]

I wonder if the workers of the companies are even sleeping in these unpredictable times...

And of course not letting the bail-out happen would be a big mistake/catastrophic on a global scale. Grats to the pigs in government on trying to kill an industry in the worst possible way.

[Need_a_V8]

FFS what is wrong with these people. The Senate and the UAW are a bunch of morons. Its like they don't realise whats at risk here.

With GM and Chrysler out so are suppliers and Ford are in deep poo.

If Holden goes, or is sold to a Chinese company...what happens to Ford? It won't be the same company thats for sure.

[GSfalcon500]

The united auto worker union will be the ones behind the failure of the senate voting down the bill , united they stand united they fall , .
I remember listening to a half hour radio program about the US auto industry about a year ago on abc news radio about how much these workers get payed and the health insurence for their whole familys and pension plans and payouts ,it was absurd the money they where getting,for instance 90k a year for driving cars from the end of the assemby line to the storage area .
The other manufacturers like toyota and bmw and the likes that opperate in the US dont have union involvement and are more productive and will probably be able to ride out the downturn in the industry
.

[Gobes32]

It is now appearing that the White House is going to step in and rescue GM and Chrysler. It is a shame that the unions will now get what they want because this was the big threes chance to rid themselves of the shackles that the UAW have imposed on them. The southern car factories (Toyota, BMW, Honda etc) are non unionised but enjoy a pay rate of $29 an hour as opposed to Detroit's rate of $31 an hour. Where they remain competitive is that they do not have the restrictive conditions such as health care and welfare payments placed upon them like the big three do.

[metalmania]

Here we go , union bashing again. If there was no auto union they would probably be on about $9 per hour like most of the workers in the USA.
If you where one of those workers i bet you would not complain about the benefits they are getting.
Sure they may get alot but it has to start from the top. Senior management has ****ed alot up against they wall with their humungous pays , bonuses and stupid decisions made.

[Fairlane]

Originally Posted by metalmania

Here we go , union bashing again. If there was no auto union they would probably be on about $9 per hour like most of the workers in the USA.
If you where one of those workers i bet you would not complain about the benefits they are getting.
Sure they may get alot but it has to start from the top. Senior management has ****ed alot up against they wall with their humungous pays , bonuses and stupid decisions made.

Damn straight metalmania. Its is not the workers fault, they have had terrible management, poor productivity is a result of poor management. You cant blame the UAW asking for lifetime healthcare for its workers, after all if you dont have employee provided healthcare, you dont have any healthcar, no medicare over there.

Secondally look at the crappy small cars they have been selling, Ford is a prime example, they still sell the 1999 Ford Focus as an 09 model, No Fiesta, new Focus, Mondeo, S-Max, Kuga, KA and of course no Falcon. Blame the workers, make them take the fall and then ripoff the new money into corporate jets and wait 10 years until you need the next lot of bailout money. The management need a swift kick up the **** and all of the big 3 need some new model in NA asap.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Fairlane

Damn straight metalmania. Its is not the workers fault, they have had terrible management, poor productivity is a result of poor management. You cant blame the UAW asking for lifetime healthcare for its workers, after all if you dont have employee provided healthcare, you dont have any healthcar, no medicare over there.

Secondally look at the crappy small cars they have been selling, Ford is a prime example, they still sell the 1999 Ford Focus as an 09 model, No Fiesta, new Focus, Mondeo, S-Max, Kuga, KA and of course no Falcon. Blame the workers, make them take the fall and then ripoff the new money into corporate jets and wait 10 years until you need the next lot of bailout money. The management need a swift kick up the **** and all of the big 3 need some new model in NA asap.

Its not the pay rate thats the problem, the workers deserve every cent they get. Its the lifetime health care and all the other crap that goes with it, agreed to when they could all do no wrong decades ago. They could not have possibly forseen what was going to happen in the future, but then again how can the supposedly richest country in the world have no free healthcare for its citizens. THAT IS UNBELIEVABLE. Land of the free :

Ford US will soon be making the new Focus and Fiesta in previous F series plants, so at least they have now seen the light to build small cars, its part of the reason why experts are saying Ford is well positioned, they saw the writing on the wall and made moves to secure their future, GM and Chrysler did nothing.

This is all a bit of a worry being a Ford employee, there was a lot of talk just before the last round of packages that in a few years time Ford will have no money to pay a payout package if the place shuts down, so take a package now while you can, and a lot did for that very reason. If Ford does go down we're all probably left with nothing. :

This senate decision will only drag the US economy down further, yet they will happy pay wall street $700 billion dollars to buy out their greed. The auto makers only want a tiny fraction of that but they say no. AMERICA STINKS.

[Clint Eastwood]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

It is now appearing that the White House is going to step in and rescue GM and Chrysler. It is a shame that the unions will now get what they want because this was the big threes chance to rid themselves of the shackles that the UAW have imposed on them. The southern car factories (Toyota, BMW, Honda etc) are non unionised but enjoy a pay rate of $29 an hour as opposed to Detroit's rate of $31 an hour. Where they remain competitive is that they do not have the restrictive conditions such as health care and welfare payments placed upon them like the big three do.

How disgusting that they should have healthcare,and decent retirement packages.....

Capatalism gone mad has caused this meltdown,not the worker.

[Yellow Fire]

Its all about costs not sales. Toyota & GM sold virtually the same number of cars in 2007. Toyota made $1874 per car, GM lost $4055 on every car they sold. SOURCE

Screw GM unless they show how they plan to fix their costs. Just giving them cash will make no difference if they're just going to waste it. Might as well give it to Toyota who know how to make money.

[IDT]

Originally Posted by Fairlane

Damn straight metalmania. Its is not the workers fault, they have had terrible management, poor productivity is a result of poor management. You cant blame the UAW asking for lifetime healthcare for its workers, after all if you dont have employee provided healthcare, you dont have any healthcar, no medicare over there.

Secondally look at the crappy small cars they have been selling, Ford is a prime example, they still sell the 1999 Ford Focus as an 09 model, No Fiesta, new Focus, Mondeo, S-Max, Kuga, KA and of course no Falcon. Blame the workers, make them take the fall and then ripoff the new money into corporate jets and wait 10 years until you need the next lot of bailout money. The management need a swift kick up the **** and all of the big 3 need some new model in NA asap.

And here we have it. The management say the workers are at fault the employees say the management is at fault when in fact the industry in not viable yet both sides reach for the cash whilst those 8 dollar an hour people in other industries have thier tax dollars used to bail out both sides of an unviable industry.

Personnaly I think both sides need the kick in ****. The term "rust belt" has been around for far longer then the financial crisis, we have all seen news articles and doco's about the failing industry.

If the yanks are for real about free markets and democracy they should let happen what happens. Bailing these auto giants out wont make car sales increase nor will it make them cheaper to make. The dodgies from both sides will have thier hands out wanting freebies which end up being paid for by some non GM/Chrysler driving schmuck who already struggles to make ends meet. As bad as it is for the auto industry its the reality that all other industries all over the world have been facing since the dawn of time

[Whitey-AMG]

The worst outcome of all this will be a bunch of ill performing multinational companies that will inevitably combine in one way or another to create a single conglomerate churning out even cheaper and nastier products. Less competition will drive less innovation and the money crunch will ultimately determine the direction of new car design and development for the next 10+ years.

There are lots of factors at play here and sometimes its all too easy to blame the hierarchy.........Greater consumer choice, consumer expectation and the automotive industries inability to adapt new technologies quick enough is also a part.

Basically, we're all going to be left with White Goods on wheels for our next generation of cars......bland , cheap to build, uninspiring and boring shared international platforms. It'll be more sheetmetal engineering than anything else to cater for local markets.

Sign of the times........we'll just have to live with it til a new world order supplants the current one. I guess its just evolution........the Big 3 have been like PIGS in %^&* for a long time now in the USA..........perhaps its time for a shake up. I just feel sorry for the innocent workers that get caught up in the storm............

[Gobes32]

By no means am I suggesting there should be no union, I am a member of one myself. However, Toyota and Honda etc are all able to maintain profitable plants in the US and pay workers US$29 an hour, a very high wage, and yet GM has been bleeding money for 4 years. Something has to give. Ford were starting to turn the corner before all this financial garbage came along. Chrysler are a basket case. Full stop.

[Hardtopxb]

The Japanese auto manufacturers must be salivating over the prospect of the American auto industry going belly up. Can you imagine the world TOTALLY dominated by Japenese auto's...

[HSVKILLA]

Ford will rise upon all of this as a big winner,they started long ago the turn around and now are in a position to be the future of the big three.

[Spanrz]

Originally Posted by metalmania

Senior management has ****ed alot up against they wall with their humungous pays , bonuses and stupid decisions made.

This is the most key point about these companies in the auto industry.
Middle manangement fiddle and diddle the books to get their "own" bonus, where the whole department contrubuted to the success, only 1 person benefits.

My old boss was key to this. Any cleaning that was done (expense) in the shop, was put on a customers job, and not shown as a general cleaning expense.
It was done this way, so that all the expenses were cut so low, he would get his bonus! Yeah at the customers expense!

Chop the management salaries, chop these bonuses or chop them!

[b0son]

Originally Posted by metalmania

Here we go , union bashing again. If there was no auto union they would probably be on about $9 per hour like most of the workers in the USA.

Those workers on $9ph, are still in jobs.... I'd rather be paid $9ph for the next year than $29ph for the next week.

If you where one of those workers i bet you would not complain about the benefits they are getting.

And if the company goes bankrupt, those benefits become all but worthless.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by HSVKILLA

Ford will rise upon all of this as a big winner,they started long ago the turn around and now are in a position to be the future of the big three.

Ford will be in trouble if the other two fall. They wont have parts to build cars as they start to fall as well.
If these guys weren't making money during the booming times, a payout isn't gonna save em unless they totally re-align the structure of the company.
Other American manufactures have these same issues but they seem to turn a profit and pay healthcare and pensions. Remember the American Federal government has spent the workers Social security for their retirement.

[Clint Eastwood]

Originally Posted by b0son

Those workers on $9ph, are still in jobs.... I'd rather be paid $9ph for the next year than $29ph for the next week.

They are on $9ph because most unions in america have been crushed by big business pulling political strings.

The inequality of the distribution of wealth in america is appalling,and has been getting worse in the last 30 years,it is a fact that wages have declined following a pattern of declining union membership.

I am a professional person who considered moving to america a few years ago, the wages I could have earnt were about 6 times what I earn here,the end result? The majority live on $9ph.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by Daymoe

Funnily enough in todays Herald Sun, there was a section saying America's most expensive events:

4.6 Trillion - Credit Crunch
1.1 Trilllion - WORLD WAR II

Its cheaper to fight and win a world war, then to fix their economy lol. Those figures were adjusted for inflation too.

Well it would be if they were actually winning but they aren't.

I didn't realise the auto industry asked for more that 1.1 trillion.

In the scheme of things what has been asked for is minute, especially considering Governments around the world have been complicit it many of the issues underpinning this industry.

[Iggypoppin']

if loans for the big three get an approval, how on earth will they repay them? theyre all losing cash and have been for a while, so whats 14billion going to do if it becomes impossible to repay it?

[ebxr8240]

Holden is o/k M.S is all cashed up now !! Lol..

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by SLWXR6

if loans for the big three get an approval, how on earth will they repay them? theyre all losing cash and have been for a while, so whats 14billion going to do if it becomes impossible to repay it?

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to bring that up....

[SM1DY]

I've only read the main post, but when you hear all this talk about the Big three going under, my first impression was that it would all end up being a bad dream and business will go on as usual. But after reading this it really gives people alot to be concerned about considering that they big company's think that bankrupcy is imminent.

Of all the things that America are hopeless at, you'd think that there priority would be to their own and making sure that people had jobs. The bickering has got them nowhere and there has been almost no benefit from the discussions that have been held over the last couple of months.

I'm not a Holden/Chevrolet fan, but I really feel for the people who work for the big 3 and their familys, because this is a massive issue that stretches over hundreds of nations.

[Perana]

Originally Posted by SLWXR6

if loans for the big three get an approval, how on earth will they repay them? theyre all losing cash and have been for a while, so whats 14billion going to do if it becomes impossible to repay it?

Ford believe that they will be profitable by 2010, though they are in the best shape at the moment.

In any case, approval of these loans will require massive re-structuring of the businesses, and the figures quoted aren't bad considering how much it will cost the US government in welfare etc. if the companies fail!

[Buddy 1]

Originally Posted by b0son

Those workers on $9ph, are still in jobs.... I'd rather be paid $9ph for the next year than $29ph for the next week.



And if the company goes bankrupt, those benefits become all but worthless.

I agree, now they are Talking about taking Wages down to $29.00 an Hour which in the USA is pretty good & would secure their Jobs.

At the moment the wages workers at GM are Paid is something like $56.00 an Hour if you count the other things while Other car Companies in the US pay workers in Factories $29.00 an hour.

So they will not end up with $9.00 an Hour Wages at all & to be Honest all they do is the same task over & over again so it is not rocket science.

So yes better to have a Job at $29.00 an Hour than no Job at all.

And yes they need to start building vehicles to compete with the Imports just as we do here.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Clint Eastwood

They are on $9ph because most unions in america have been crushed by big business pulling political strings.

And yet, those industries arent holding their hand out waiting for the taxpayer to save them.

[Gobes32]

When I was 18 (seven years ago) and working full time at Coles, I was on $5.60 an hour. So don't kid yourself, that bull#%it happens here too.

Originally Posted by Buddy 1

So they will not end up with $9.00 an Hour Wages at all & to be Honest all they do is the same task over & over again so it is not rocket science.

Driving an overhead gantry crane with a 35 tonne die swinging about isn't exactly rocket science but you can kill someone real quickly if you are not paying attention. Or how about a forklift with 500 sheets of steel on a base weighing 7.5 tonne, once again it's not complicated but it can go pear shaped very quickly.

The general consensus on this forum seems to be that all factory workers are overpaid idiots with jobs a child can do. Has anyone been inside a car manufacturing facility? Yeah there are mindless jobs, but you are talking 10 per cent max, and they are being phased out. Nowadays, if you do not have year 12 maths and english, Ford won't even look at you for a production job.

[MITCHAY]

The way I see it is if the government were to throw all this money at these companies, are they going to be in a better situation down the line in 12 months time when they want more money because not enough people aren't still not buying their cars?

If they were to invest the money in R&D to make cars which will yield a profit then I can see it working, but to me it just seems like a way to pay the bills and keep them going for a little bit longer until they need another bailout.

In regard to wages, everyone thinks they are worth more than what they are paid and the amount of people I've met that think they should be paid like they are a doctor because they work 'hard' is beyond a bloody joke.

[Ohio XB]

Originally Posted by madmelon

The unions in that country are atrocious- a bunch of greedy mofo's who would rather see hundreds of thousands of job losses than a wage that is lower which matches competing foreign owned businesses. Maybe it's time the whole country went to hell in a bucket to teach people over there some lessons.

The great American dream- greed now, bankruptcy later.

I can't tell you how many times I have heard this. Usually it is from people that have not done 5 minutes of research themselves to learn about how different the US automakers are now compared to 5 - 10 years ago. It is also hard to find news coverage of the events that have occured to change the Union and the companies in the name of competitiveness.

Take a look at this video. At 1 minute and 28 seconds (1:28) you will see where some of the Japanese companies (Toyota and Nissan) are actually paying their employees MORE per hour than the UAW employees.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677#28184396


In 2005 the UAW re-opened the national contract (usually never done) in order to renegotiate terms to make the companies more competitive. Local contracts were also opened and "Competitive Operating Agreements" agreed upon to make even more CONSESSIONS to help the companies become more competitive.

In 2007 a landmark contract was approved with wages for new employees set at 1/2 current employees. Benefits for new employess were greatly reduced. Wages for current employees have been frozen. Co-pays for healthcare on the part of the workers raised. Some jobs normally performed by the company employees are now outsourced by the company. Healthcare for retirees will be taken off the manufacturer's books and administered by the Union (January 1, 2010). The list goes on and on and on, and as we speak the President of the UAW is negotiating with the big 3 making even more consessions.

By the end of this contract (2011) the UAW total labor costs will be about equal to all the others. Mind you, this is being accomplished while the US auto makers have 1 million retirees to account for while the foreign companied operating in the US only have about 1,000 combined. The US companies have been around on average 100 years. The others have been here 23 years or less, and most of them significantly less. That's the reason for the difference in retirees.

So if you have 2 companies that have the same labor cost, but one has 500,000 retirees receiving pensions and healthcare, and the other has 248 retirees, which one is getting stuff done cheaper?

During the hearings in Washington several Congressmen and Senators praised the UAW for having made so many cuts in wages and benefits, consessions and work rules.

It costs $1,300 in labor (wages and benefits) to build a Ford Escape. If you cut labor down to 50% you still only save $650 per vechicle. Do you really think that this $650 is the saving grace of the companies? They give that much and more back to the customer in rebates!

The UAW President stated to Congress and the Senate that total labor costs make up 10% of the price of the car. That is an average among the Big3, and Ford is below that average.

Why is that specific 10%, and cutting down a part of it, believed to be the whole problem? There is another 90% that makes up the cost of the car.

And if the Big3 have run their companies into the ground and the Union helped cause it, why is every auto manufacturer in the world in dire straights? The European Union is being asked by the auto industry there, with Volkswagon, Fiat, and Mercedes among them for $52 billion USD. Don't hear about that in the news too much. Sweden is giving Volvo over $6 million USD. The Japanese auto industry is in bad times, the worse since 1974.

$52 Billion asked for by European Auto Makers
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...=2008812110328

Japanese worse since 1974
http://www.leftlanenews.com/japanese...-year-low.html

I'm not making this stuff up.

Did ALL of these companies run their corporations into the ground AT THE SAME TIME? No, it's the economy, dang it!





My point is this. PLEASE do some research. Learn what the Union has done over the past 4 years to reduce labor costs. Learn what Ford has done to increase production efficiency at all levels, reduce costs of parts, reduced it's manufacturing capacity (closed 17 plants and reduced the number of workers by 50,000), stepped up quality (Fusion and Milan have higher quality ratings than Camry and Accord, Ford is in dead heat with Toyota and Honda in quality), Safety (most 5-star crash test ratings of any manufacturer in the US) and more. Read the plan they submitted to the government boards they were required to go in front of. You can download the document here....

http://media.ford.com/article_displa...ticle_id=29505

Click on Ford Motor Company Business Plan


Ford's plan was working as they turned a profit in the first quarter THIS year. Then gas shot up and the economy crashed.



If you don't do this research then you are just another of those that would rather just jump on the bandwagon of the ignorant and enjoy the bliss without knowing the real world. Those people look like fools.


Yeah, I am taunting you to look into this. If I tick you off you just might. If you do, then thank you.


Steve