A sad reminder - 5 die in M5 crash

[flappist]

Originally Posted by fmc351

Sheep? Buy yourself a mirror and maybe some shears.

Speed does kill, only an idiot assumes that those who make the statement 'speed kills' believe every time you go fast you die, that was never the message and your post clearly tries to attach that interpretation to it, that is propaganda. Red wine doesnt stain either, its the idiot who drops it, uh huh great logic in that. You wont die if you hit a wall at 10km/h in an M5, but chances sure as hell increase with speed until we reach a speed where its a certainty. Obviously speed kills. We've all seen motor racing, clearly we know you can go fast, in controlled conditions, with enough skill. The message is aimed at public roads.

The only reason you can say 'speed doesnt kill' is youre not dead. Same with the young lad in the M5, last week. At least this young kid had enough intelligence to do it off road.

Just a tragic waste of life.

Because theyre under the delusion/misrepresentation speed doesnt kill.


Truth is, like many here, they dont know better, but as usual just cant be told even when its Police in their spare time on here, Ambulance drivers and any number of other people. These people have enthusiast blood in them, the people on here repeatedly posting the warning posts are not the bowls club brigade.

You appear to be confused.
I stated that this accident was caused by lack of ability and misjudgment, not SPEED KILLS.
You disagree and say that SPEED KILLS is true for public roads but not for other places under controlled conditions.

Well the accident happened on an airstrip, no corners, no other traffic, which are fairly controlled conditions.
The only thing missing was the skill and experience necessary to do exactly what has been done dozens of times in magazine tests at avalon.

This is a tragedy but should be used as an example. Just because you have a high powered modded car does not mean that you know how to drive it.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by flappist

NO SPEED DOES NOT KILL.

Driving beyond your abilities and doing stupid things in stupid places kills.

It really worries me that so many are just following the propaganda and believe anything they see on TV like a bunch of sheep.

i'm pretty sure that the speed he hit the windsrceen at, or the speed that his body tried to break through the seatbelt, would've had a direct relation to his death . FLAPPIST GET OVER THIS SPEED DOESN'T KILL CRAP, with little technicality theories . it does young people no good reading this sort of rubbish.

[troppo]

I think it does young people a world of good to question everything and think for themselves, including the "speed kills" myth.

[FordACE]

Originally Posted by flappist

You appear to be confused.
I stated that this accident was caused by lack of ability and misjudgment, not SPEED KILLS.
You disagree and say that SPEED KILLS is true for public roads but not for other places under controlled conditions.

Well the accident happened on an airstrip, no corners, no other traffic, which are fairly controlled conditions.
The only thing missing was the skill and experience necessary to do exactly what has been done dozens of times in magazine tests at avalon.

This is a tragedy but should be used as an example. Just because you have a high powered modded car does not mean that you know how to drive it.

I think most people aren't quite understanding what you're saying flappist. I actually totally agree with you. In practice it is the speed that kills (i.e the sudden stop), but what is actually killing is the ignorance of people and their rapidly decaying skill levels on our poorly maintained (what the government calls) roads.

[DivHunter]

too far?

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by FordACE

I think most people aren't quite understanding what you're saying flappist. I actually totally agree with you. In practice it is the speed that kills (i.e the sudden stop), but what is actually killing is the ignorance of people and their rapidly decaying skill levels on our poorly maintained (what the government calls) roads.

humans arent machines, and skill levels of humans have limits . average skill levels are low .

[troppo]

Originally Posted by FordACE

In practice it is the speed that kills (i.e the sudden stop)

Personally, I think the confusion lies in thinking these two things are the same...a rapid change in speed is very hazardous to one's health (acceleration or deceleration) but speed is not.

[gtfpv]

ok according to your theories ( speed doesnt kill) let's just say that the fatal accident that this thread is about has nothing to do with speeding . and any speed the driver was driving at, ie 1km/hr to the speed of light . had nothing to do with what ever happened to cause the death . and the speed doesnt come into it . it would've happened anyway . only because of the drivers IQ . OK!

[FordACE]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

ok according to your theories ( speed doesnt kill) let's just say that the fatal accident that this thread is about has nothing to do with speeding . and any speed the driver was driving at, ie 1km/hr to the speed of light . had nothing to do with what ever happened to cause the death . and the speed doesnt come into it . it would've happened anyway . only because of the drivers IQ . OK!

Just remember, at 80 km's hr if you hit a pole your going to die. So theoretically speed does kill and we should all travel below this speed to ensure that our lives are not wasted so tragically by speed.

[FordACE]

Originally Posted by troppo

Personally, I think the confusion lies in thinking these two things are the same...a rapid change in speed is very hazardous to one's health (acceleration or deceleration) but speed is not.

This is true. Planes go 800 km/hr and is one of the safest modes of transport. Albeit, if a plane goes down, so do 300 people. But really, this in itself shows that it's not the speed that kills but the fact that not all people drive according to the conditions. All that I'm trying to get at is that the government needs to put in more effort into driver training.

[troppo]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

humans arent machines, and skill levels of humans have limits . average skill levels are low .

Now we're getting to the crux of the matter...

Originally Posted by gtfpv

i'm pretty sure that the speed he hit the windsrceen at, or the speed that his body tried to break through the seatbelt, would've had a direct relation to his death .

People don't just hit the windscreen or try to break through a seatbelt on a whim. Something else has to happen first to cause it in the first place , like an impact which stops the car but not the occupant. Which means the impact is primary cause of the death, speed is merely a factor. And the impact was caused by....you guessed it, the human operator driving beyond the limits of the human/machine/conditions.

[Quicksand]

the fact of the matter is, regardless of technicalities on peoples views of cliches, a group of young people were killed causing devastation to a whole group of family and friends. Something that i dont wish on anyone.

A little compassion goes a long way and if you ever lose your child in something like this how about you try saying "it's tragic but....he shouldn't have been doing it".

Plenty of keyboard warriors on here who forget the flow-on affect this has on so many people.

[troppo]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

ok according to your theories ( speed doesnt kill) let's just say that the fatal accident that this thread is about has nothing to do with speeding . and any speed the driver was driving at, ie 1km/hr to the speed of light . had nothing to do with what ever happened to cause the death . and the speed doesnt come into it . it would've happened anyway . only because of the drivers IQ . OK!

People have fallen over and hit their heads and died. Their heads weren't moving all that quick at the time. David Hookes anyone?

[JC]

Originally Posted by flappist

NO SPEED DOES NOT KILL.

Driving beyond your abilities and doing stupid things in stupid places kills.

It really worries me that so many are just following the propaganda and believe anything they see on TV like a bunch of sheep.

Nail. Hammer. Head.

I agree with this statement 1000000000%

Speed is a calculation of Distance over time. If speed killed, then anyone not at rest would die immeditely they tried to move.

Inappropriate Speed kills - whether it be because of weather conditions, driver (in)ability, mechanical failure etc. And technicaly, it's usually the impact that does the killing, and the vehicle's velocity (speed) may be a contributing factor into the reason the impact occurred.

[FordACE]

Originally Posted by JC

Nail. Hammer. Head.

I agree with this statement 1000000000%

Speed is a calculation of Distance over time. If speed killed, then anyone not at rest would die immeditely they tried to move.

Inappropriate Speed kills - whether it be because of weather conditions, driver (in)ability, mechanical failure etc. And technicaly, it's usually the impact that does the killing, and the vehicle's velocity (speed) may be a contributing factor into the reason the impact occurred.

This is 100% on the ball.

[FordACE]

Originally Posted by ThundaBird

the fact of the matter is, regardless of technicalities on peoples views of cliches, a group of young people were killed causing devastation to a whole group of family and friends. Something that i dont wish on anyone.

A little compassion goes a long way and if you ever lose your child in something like this how about you try saying "it's tragic but....he shouldn't have been doing it".

Plenty of keyboard warriors on here who forget the flow-on affect this has on so many people.

Yep, no one wishes death on anyone. It was a stupid act on his behalf, but he and the occupants far from deserved to go this way.

[MITCHAY]

Agree with flappist. A big BAAAAH to the majority of the public.

[XRQTOR]

Originally Posted by JC

Nail. Hammer. Head.

I agree with this statement 1000000000%

Speed is a calculation of Distance over time. If speed killed, then anyone not at rest would die immeditely they tried to move.

Inappropriate Speed kills - whether it be because of weather conditions, driver (in)ability, mechanical failure etc. And technicaly, it's usually the impact that does the killing, and the vehicle's velocity (speed) may be a contributing factor into the reason the impact occurred.

I was just about to put it into as basic form as possible and you have done it already. It's kinda basic really......

[fastapasta]

speed doesnt kill looking at the speedo kills

[FordACE]

Originally Posted by fastapasta

speed doesnt kill looking at the speedo kills

yep, way too many nervous drivers on the road. it's a joke.

[xquizd]

Originally Posted by ThundaBird

the fact of the matter is, regardless of technicalities on peoples views of cliches, a group of young people were killed causing devastation to a whole group of family and friends. Something that i dont wish on anyone.

A little compassion goes a long way and if you ever lose your child in something like this how about you try saying "it's tragic but....he shouldn't have been doing it".

Plenty of keyboard warriors on here who forget the flow-on affect this has on so many people.

Well said _2:

I wouldnt be the first person to do high speeds at a young age (few years ago now) but the fact of the matter is if I was to lose control at say 80 - 100 k's the chances of walkn away a much greater than loosing it at say 180 - 250 k's which is what is meant by the speed kills saying.

It doesnt mean that doing 5 ks ova is going to automaticaly kill you, cmon people have a good tthink about it :

If this guy was doin 100 ks rather than 230 I think the chance of walking away would have been MUCH greater (doesn't necassarily mean they would have lived but there may have been a chance) :

Any way bak to the point, they didn't deserve to go out like that. simple!
Now back to work for me.

[fmc351]

What a funny bunch of mental giants on here.

I directly addressed the speed on its own doesnt kill facet of the 'speed kills' argument. NO-ONE CLAIMS SPEED ON ITS OWN KILLS. Damn, Peter Brock among others showed us that for years, he then showed us it does kill.

You dont get the severe impact and sudden stop without speed. SPEED DOES KILL, face it. The statement is made in relationship to roads, not racetracks. Roads, where oil hits the road, where kids run out, where cars breakdown or get flat tyres that need fixing/changing, where people make small and large errors, where vehicles head in the opposite direction, where infinite variables can make the road unpredictable.

Try to imagine Bathurst being run with cars going in both directions at the same time and pitlane being where ever the car broke down without the yellow flags. It would make the top of the mountain interesting to say the least.

Jesus, even racing noted the need for skilled drivers in controlled conditions still needed a speed limit in a dedicated pitlane.

Originally Posted by troppo

Personally, I think the confusion lies in thinking these two things are the same...a rapid change in speed is very hazardous to one's health (acceleration or deceleration) but speed is not.

Thats precisely what I was getting at. This nonsensical argument of the sudden stop is hair splitting at best because the sudden stop does not occur without speed.

No-one saying 'speed kills' thinks simply going fast kills people, weve been in jets, weve seen motor racing, obviously we know you can go fast and not die. But the message speed kills is still correct, its just a stupid hair splitting argument that disagrees with it.

Originally Posted by FordACE

I think most people aren't quite understanding what you're saying flappist. I actually totally agree with you. In practice it is the speed that kills (i.e the sudden stop), but what is actually killing is the ignorance of people and their rapidly decaying skill levels on our poorly maintained (what the government calls) roads.

Its all of these things. However any road surface including ice can be driven on safely if speed is adjusted accordingly and the vehicle is equipped for it.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by troppo

People have fallen over and hit their heads and died. Their heads weren't moving all that quick at the time. David Hookes anyone?

You make it seem like falling over happens at 10km/h. It would be interesting to see what speed the head actually makes contact with the ground.

Gravity would get you to a fair rate of speed in a short distance. Terminal velocity being in the range of 180km/h, its fair to assume that TV would occur in a relatively shorter distance than it takes to get a car to 180. I actually dont know the speed your head would hit at, but guess it would be in the area of 60 km/h or more if it killed you. Especially if you add the effects of not simply falling but the muscles in your neck pulling away accelerating the heads movement.

[xquizd]

fmc351 I didnt mean you in my previous post, sum people on hear keep saying & repeating that speed doesn't kill period, even though it's one of if not the most contributing factors.

[troppo]

Originally Posted by fmc351

You make it seem like falling over happens at 10km/h. It would be interesting to see what speed the head actually makes contact with the ground.

Gravity would get you to a fair rate of speed in a short distance. Terminal velocity being in the range of 180km/h, its fair to assume that TV would occur in a relatively shorter distance than it takes to get a car to 180. I actually dont know the speed your head would hit at, but guess it would be in the area of 60 km/h or more if it killed you. Especially if you add the effects of not simply falling but the muscles in your neck pulling away accelerating the heads movement.

Walking speed is about 8 km/h isn't it?

Gravity accelerates any object @ 9.8 m/s/s IIRC, call it 10 for round numbers. Therefore an object 10m above the ground would accelerate at that rate and would hit the ground at a speed of 10m/s, 1 second after it was released, ignoring any effects of wind resistance. 10m/s = 600 m/minute = 36000 m/h = 36 km/h. The average human head is only around 2m above the ground...

I agree with you on a few things but what you call splitting hairs, I call more accurately describing the problem. Clearly, speed is a factor in the severity of an accident, should one occur. And you obviously agree that speed on it's own is not responsible. Yet the phrase "Speed kills" doesn't leave much room for sharing the blame.

[MRJUCY]

One of the news reports I read claimed they'd been drinking for one of the kids 19th birthday. Not a nice combination.

[davocol]

Where's that re-posted light bulb thread when you need it.

Anyway another waste of human life, when will people learn, stupidity kills.

[TaNkY fAiRmOnT]

This was a horribe accident that shoudn't have happened but the reality is, that it does happen all time and no-one deserves to go like that. All Those parents would be devistated to have a loss in the family. To all you disapionted guys out there like myself who has to have only one passenger from july 1st on their green P's for the first year, this is the very reason why. An hour ago i was very annoyed about the announcement made earlier on today, and after reading this it brings you to the reality that this happens quite often and its seen in the paper and on the TV all the time. So after reading the thread it changed my thoughts about the whole new law completely. If it helps reduce the numbers of deaths on our roads maybe this is the way to go. No family should have to go through the pain of loosing 5 kids in a car accident. What are others thoughts on this new law regarding the same sort of situation? :

josh

[Falcon Freak]

He tried to do the right thing by not testing his car's speed on public roads and still fu(ked up. Just goes to show that most people have more ambition then ability. I wonder how BMW have reacted to this tragic event?

FF

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by xquizd

fmc351 I didnt mean you in my previous post, sum people on hear keep saying & repeating that speed doesn't kill period, even though it's one of if not the most contributing factors.

Sorry.

Originally Posted by flappist

You appear to be confused.
I stated that this accident was caused by lack of ability and misjudgment, not SPEED KILLS.
You disagree and say that SPEED KILLS is true for public roads but not for other places under controlled conditions.

Well the accident happened on an airstrip, no corners, no other traffic, which are fairly controlled conditions.
The only thing missing was the skill and experience necessary to do exactly what has been done dozens of times in magazine tests at avalon.

This is a tragedy but should be used as an example. Just because you have a high powered modded car does not mean that you know how to drive it.

No, I directly focused on the hair splitting argument how speed does not kill. Its a stupid thing to say in reference to the message. It may be scientifically correct that speed alone does not kill, but that was never the message youre arguing against. Its a straw man and you know it.

The airstrip is not a controlled condition as it was not organised, there was likely no roll cage, no helmet, no paramedics and no rules etc etc not simply the driver wasnt trained. While the rollcage may not be necessary for testing purposes, at least the insistence of training is necessary for the magazine tests.

Originally Posted by troppo

Walking speed is about 8 km/h isn't it?

Gravity accelerates any object @ 9.8 m/s/s IIRC, call it 10 for round numbers. Therefore an object 10m above the ground would accelerate at that rate and would hit the ground at a speed of 10m/s, 1 second after it was released, ignoring any effects of wind resistance. 10m/s = 600 m/minute = 36000 m/h = 36 km/h. The average human head is only around 2m above the ground...

I agree with you on a few things but what you call splitting hairs, I call more accurately describing the problem. Clearly, speed is a factor in the severity of an accident, should one occur. And you obviously agree that speed on it's own is not responsible. Yet the phrase "Speed kills" doesn't leave much room for sharing the blame.

Heaps of things contribute, road surface, skill, speed, objects, roadworthiness, and luck, lots of luck. Its a catch phrase to get a message across, imagine the advertisement that covered all of it. Think Coca Cola, 'Coke is it'. Its short and to the point. Speed leads to higher impacts, and without speed your brain does not mash so hard against the inside of the skull in said impact. Its natural protections can function effectively, at speed they are just not up to the task.

Those who claim speed does not kill, are splitting hairs that young lads grab hold of as gospel. And with proper training, proper facilities in a controlled environment that is fine, and I encourage it, there is a risk, but its for each person to choose. Problem is people take this notion on the road where the situation is much different and the result far more serious, and often for people who made better choices.

The message speed kills is correct, as I said, no-one making the road rules claims that simply driving fast kills. If that were so, the speed limit would be 20km/h obviously. They are well aware you can be killed at much lower speeds than 110.

The 110 limits and 60 limits are trying to balance risk, convenience and necessity. There is no failsafe answer that covers all scenarios, the law does not provide guarantees, it merely tries to minimise risk without overly effecting citizens needs.