Apology

[ilsautomotive]

I'd like to extend my thanks to Russell for making this thread. Some faith had been lost by many with the nature of the debate on the other thread, but it is increasingly apparent that it was a combination of misunderstandings, ill-preparedness and many members getting carried away in the chaos of the moment. As far as I am concerned, all concerns have now either been directly addressed, or solid plans put into place to prevent a repeat of this. Apology accepted.

Many will remember occasions such as the Auscarnager debacle in which I faced similar criticism to the admin at this time. Again, the mistake was over permitting debate over a decision that was my right to make. I have never questioned the decision to demote John despite the details being withheld. That is the admin team's right and responsibility - the only problems would arise if people feared they did not have our best interests at heart. I hope this has been addressed to all. I will also be making every effort to persuade John to accept the decision and move on like the rest of us - it has gotten messy but the issues raised have been addressed. Indeed, the support and resources that have always been provided to E series by AFF should not be overlooked at a time like this.

With this in mind, I ask that everyone refrain from initiating further E Series vs AFF wars, regardless of which side they may take. There may be differences in age (etc) between the 2, but we are under this banner with a common goal, and a mutually beneficial partnership. Both I and the admin team will frown upon anyone taking this opportunity to 'stir'. Because I will be unable to moderate this thread for the next 10 hours, and to prevent a repeat of the previous thread, I am going to close it now. As always, the admin team and myself are happy to discuss concerns via PM.

Regards,

Jack

[russellw]

I've had a few questions repeatedly via PM that are obviously of general concern and thus I will answer them for all to read.

1. The question was asked in PM (and above) as to whether this apology would have been forthcoming without a request from Trouty. The simple answer is yes because, as stated in my original post, we did not handle the process as well as we should have. There is no attempt to escape that simple fact and thus the apology was the only way to piblicly acknowledge our errors. There are reasons for the errors but excuses do not change the facts.

2. I have had a number of requests to remove the previous threads from public view as they are a poor representation of the forum. This will be actioned over the next few hours although this one will stay for the next few days.

The suggestions above with regard to us attending E-Series events is a good one - time availability is always an issue and we have largely left each club to their own events except when we have been specifically invited - as we were to the AU Family BBQ for example. If your club administrators wish to extend an invitation to us I am sure that we can attend at least some of them regardless of the flack we will no doubt cop from some.

Likewise we have always been prepared (and I have communicated this to Trouty directly) to assist with prizes and financial support for events where we are able to and the invitation to all events always includes everyone.
It always puzzles me (and perhaps someone can enlighten me) as to why there has to be differences between the various series. From my perspective they are all Fords and even non Ford owning enthusiasts have been welcome at (and attended) some of our events. I myself will shortly not have a Ford as my primary car (for the next 2 years anyway) but I wouldn't expect that to make one tiny bit of difference to my attendance at any event I wish to go to.

That there is some good natured rivalry between various series owners I can accept but if it is anything deeper than that then I am mystified as to the reasons. I don't happen to think that every Ford ever built was the best car ever made or indeed the most handsome but I am not going to deny anyone the right to see it in a different light. That's what a community of like minded enthusiasts should be about - respect for the differences.

I am going to reopen this thread as there are now admins available to ensure that it stays on the right track.

Cheers
Russ

[snypereb]

As i was one of the ones who did get upset by the decision of the administration. I do accept the apology by Russell as i have talked to you though PM.
I dont believe this is a scheme what so ever. However in the long run they will alwyas be the admin and we will always members/ moderators or whatever i think its just best the we get along annd build a bridge between our teams and join. We all love the same thing here!!!!!!!!!!

[Walkinshaw]

Originally Posted by russellw

It always puzzles me (and perhaps someone can enlighten me) as to why there has to be differences between the various series. From my perspective they are all Fords and even non Ford owning enthusiasts have been welcome at (and attended) some of our events. I myself will shortly not have a Ford as my primary car (for the next 2 years anyway) but I wouldn't expect that to make one tiny bit of difference to my attendance at any event I wish to go to.

Russ, one of the issues that alot of people raise to me is the problem of apparent elietesum. You can not say it isn't rife with a straight face. The comments i hear from a HUGE majority of both eseries and newer "better" vehciles is based arround elitisum. Many owners of some of the older cars paint the A,B sections and owners with one brush the "stuck up elitist" brush. From what i can gather this is in responce to the common baging or shunning of the "mutants" or the way that A,B owners act supperior (there are NUMEROUS threads where this is the case aparently, one started today even). Wether ot not this happens (its just from what I've heard) or if it is justified is beside my point, Im just raising the point that it is present and it can NOT be denied.

Originally Posted by russellw

That's what a community of like minded enthusiasts should be about - respect for the differences.

There is a hellllllllll of a long way before that will ever happen, mabey when Smincer puts a Wheezer in his XB.

[XA-Coupe]

No one is denying it. There are even elitist splinter groups amongst the groups themselves.
I think too many people let the vocal minority shape their decisions. The elitists are usually just a tiny proportion of the forum.
Using our drag day as an example, we now have two sub classes in the classes to make the slower cars eligible for a win. That is recognition of the divide that is there.
If you ( in the generic context ) let the elitists stop you from coming to other events then you are only short changing yourselves.

[russellw]

Walkinshaw

I don't believe I have said that it isn't rife - what I said was that I don't understand it and probably never will.

Nor is it, as you seem to assume, restricted to the A & B series car owners, I have seen many examples from X and E series people as well. It may just be human nature in wanting to believe that the decision each individual has made is justified or the "right" one but from my point of view it is just part of the natural progression each person makes as their circumstances allow.

There are plenty of X Series cars worth more than my car.
There are plenty of E Series cars equally as well looked after.
There are plenty of A Series cars that are as quick (and some quicker).

Does any of that matter? Not to me it doesn't. I like them all and appreciate reading, watching and talking to the people who are passionate about them. Maybe that is idealistic but it's what motivates me to continue working to make this forum a valuable resource and a community for everyone.

I watch the debates between A & E Series or between A and B series or X and everybody and even those between people who prefer a different tyre, tuning house, stripes or anything that they are pasisonate about. If those debates are conducted in accordance with the site T&C I am happy to let them be and only intervene when they don't.

There are 14,000 odd people here; all from different backgrounds, at different stages of their life and all with different ideas about what is right. That's what I love about it and even in those trying times (like the last few days) there are still enough decent people here to keep me going with it all.

We have members from 14 to (probably) 70 and they bring differing experience levels and different perspectives on the world. They all simply add to the mix and that mix means that there will be different issues among the different areas.

Anyone that wants to act in an elitist manner is fooling themselves. At the end of the day we all put our pants on one leg at a time and we will all end up in as food for the worms. Outside of that; status, wealth and the trappings of modern society are merely a different ride to the same end.

Enough rambling from me.

Russ

[efgiar]

IMO, john has poured his heart into this club. the point on removing his status i think is just silly because its not like he can effect ANY of the admins, or other moderators with his level of access and removing his mod status has now limited him to not being able to do stickies, if there was a flame, i went to john and he corrected the situation as best as possible, nothing will change my mind unless the reason he was removed as a mod comes out and is totally and utterly stupid of him to do. as it stands i have lost respect for the admin team, more so the people involved in this situation because of how it was handled. this is MY OPINION, every one has a right to it, so please, id prefer my post not be edited or deleted as i dont see anywere on the join disclaimer were i cant state my opinion.

[HOON69]

honestly as funny as it sounds i agree that admin only make harsh decisions when pushed

and in a way i think admin have sum'd it up nicely
there was a issue their action was justified but wasnt handle as well as it should have
i think ppl need to get off their backs,without em there wouldnt be a FFAU

on another note when i think of e series i dont think of xa coupe or russellw as the main guy for e series i have always known EFFALCON to be the "e series bloke to talk to" and its sad when it comes down to this

EFFALCON IMHO made e series in a way and i respect him more so for keeping e series a main part of the ford community

so im a fence sitter and i respect both parties as equal so its just sad to see this happening.

lets not have a FF war ay one was bad enough :P

[BOOSTDEF]

yeh just state the reason he was removed from the mod team... It would go a long way to rectifying the situ.

[EF_Frmnt]

Still searchin for a reason why his mod status was taken...?

[XA-Coupe]

Originally Posted by efgiar

. this is MY OPINION, every one has a right to it, so please, id prefer my post not be edited or deleted as i dont see anywere on the join disclaimer were i cant state my opinion.

Damned right you are entitled to your opinion. Have we everh edited posts just because of a disagreement?? no... we edit them because they are abusinve or way out of line.

People will think what they will. I have no doubt that John is invaluable to the club, but it's not the club that is the issue.

[Aaron_EF8]

2. I have had a number of requests to remove the previous threads from public view as they are a poor representation of the forum. This will be actioned over the next few hours although this one will stay for the next few days.

I don't see the point to hiding threads at all. This WILL create more bad opinions and many people will lose what respect they have left for the admin team. Don't deny it will happen, just wake up and live in reality land.

I don't see any reason this thread should be closed AT THIS STAGE. If the thread quality deteriorates, then I can see a reason to edit/delete posts, but everyone has been very civil on here so far. If this thread (and similar threads) is closed, people will still have an opinion, but there will be no APPROPRIATE place to state these opinions, after all, that is what a forum is.

Who will be getting a poor representation of this forum? Do you want to send out a false message to new members who might be joining? Everyone who is involved in E-Series already knows about this whole incident. Closing the threads will simply create the comments etc that would be addressed in here, being addressed in various random threads throughout the forums. Again, if anyone believes this will not happen, they need a good dose of reality.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by BOOSTDEF

yeh just state the reason he was removed from the mod team... It would go a long way to rectifying the situ.

Let me make it perfectly clear once again before the thread fills up with these requests.

1. We will not be disclosing the reasons for the action being taken. Apart from satisfying morbid curiosity or the gossips the reasons are internal and will remain so.

2. We do not intefere in the running of your club and do not expect inteference in how we run the forum.

3. We don't expect to please everybody all of the time as that is just not possible.

4. Each individual will decide for themselves what view they want to take and that is their right to do so.

5. This is in no way a reflection on John whatever he may choose to believe. That he proved unsuited to the role of moderator is no different to me being unsuited to the role of Hells Angel or Laminge to the role of tap dancer. To each their own.

[HOON69]

Originally Posted by Aaron_EF8

I don't see the point to hiding threads at all. This WILL create more bad opinions and many people will lose what respect they have left for the admin team. Don't deny it will happen, just wake up and live in reality land.

I don't see any reason this thread should be closed AT THIS STAGE. If the thread quality deteriorates, then I can see a reason to edit/delete posts, but everyone has been very civil on here so far. If this thread (and similar threads) is closed, people will still have an opinion, but there will be no APPROPRIATE place to state these opinions, after all, that is what a forum is.

Who will be getting a poor representation of this forum? Do you want to send out a false message to new members who might be joining? Everyone who is involved in E-Series already knows about this whole incident. Closing the threads will simply create the comments etc that would be addressed in here, being addressed in various random threads throughout the forums. Again, if anyone believes this will not happen, they need a good dose of reality.

well said

no point trying to sweep it under the carpet as it only stain the forum and its members including the new ones..

[BOOSTDEF]

Originally Posted by russellw

Let me make it perfectly clear once again before the thread fills up with these requests.

1. We will not be disclosing the reasons for the action being taken. Apart from satisfying morbid curiosity or the gossips the reasons are internal and will remain so.

Well ok then, thats your right. But hey, its just gonna add to the "sweeping under the mat" image which wont help at all.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by Aaron_EF8

I don't see the point to hiding threads at all. This WILL create more bad opinions and many people will lose what respect they have left for the admin team. Don't deny it will happen, just wake up and live in reality land.

I don't see any reason this thread should be closed AT THIS STAGE. If the thread quality deteriorates, then I can see a reason to edit/delete posts, but everyone has been very civil on here so far. If this thread (and similar threads) is closed, people will still have an opinion, but there will be no APPROPRIATE place to state these opinions, after all, that is what a forum is.

Who will be getting a poor representation of this forum? Do you want to send out a false message to new members who might be joining? Everyone who is involved in E-Series already knows about this whole incident. Closing the threads will simply create the comments etc that would be addressed in here, being addressed in various random threads throughout the forums. Again, if anyone believes this will not happen, they need a good dose of reality.

As you will have no doubt noticed (given that you posted in it) this thread is still open and I only said it would be closed in a couple of days when the activity slows down.

The suggestion to remove the other threads came from your own members and made good sense to me - no doubt this can serve as another source for division which it seems some are keen to find.

From where I stand at the moment this is a no win situation which is exactly what happens when the opinions of a lot of people are involved. Frankly, I couldn't care whether they stay or go but from my point of view they represent a blot on the generally harmonious state of this forum.

Let's see - should we just run a poll and accept the majority decision?

Russ

[Polyal]

This is seriously getting old.

The admin steam really do not need to explain themselves. If someone doesn't like it then fine, you can leave its ok.

The e-series/FFA relationship is mutually beneficial, it sounds like some people expect FFA to fully organise e-series events, which is just unrealistic. Anything that FFA organises automatically invites everyone.

I seriously dont think that John is going to just up and leave. I think we are all getting a bit frustrated over something that isn't a big deal. So John cannot edit things, it was done before his mod status was given, and John participated before he was a mod too.

What the forum really needs is a gif for "build a bridge".

[Psycho Chicken]

Originally Posted by Polyal

The admin steam really do not need to explain themselves. If someone doesn't like it then fine, you can leave its ok.

Last I checked this was the Australian Ford Forums, not the Russian ones.

The admin have said they are open to suggestions and discussion, which is exactly what this is.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

Last I checked this was the Australian Ford Forums, not the Russian ones.

The admin have said they are open to suggestions and discussion, which is exactly what this is.

Fair enough. But without getting nasty, last time I checked e-series where the ones that came to FFA, not the other way around.

If the FFA team is not happy with someone and their actions, then they are dealt with however is necessary, being a mod no matter how good, does not make you immune to it.

Now, its not always going to be a popular choice, everyone knows that you can never please everyone, but decisions have to be made to keep the forum rolling in a manner which is best for all involved.

Also the longer this goes on, the harder its going to be for the next person.

You live, learn and move on.

[svo347]

Was that yagz.....
who let him in !!

[DJL351]

From an outsider looking in.... this is all being flogged like a dead horse!

There has been an issue between a Mod and the Admin group and the Admin group have now removed a Mod from their list....
I don't see how this endless back and forth is going to change anything!
The transaction has been done, move on there can be no good from this continuing name calling.

Well done to the Mod and Admin crew... all in all I think the job you are doing with this forum is great.

As for the subject of "Elitists".... they are everywhere, if you listen to the sh*t they say, then you only feed the fire.

I'll sit back and wait for the knives and grenades.... :

D:

[XA-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

Last I checked this was the Australian Ford Forums, not the Russian ones.

The admin have said they are open to suggestions and discussion, which is exactly what this is.

suggestion noted.. time to move on.

[AdzT3-146]

Originally Posted by Polyal

The e-series/FFA relationship is mutually beneficial, it sounds like some people expect FFA to fully organise e-series events, which is just unrealistic. Anything that FFA organises automatically invites everyone.

Erm... who asked Russellw, XA-Coupe, Laminge or any other admin to organise our events?

[Polyal]

Also, this aguement is useless unless John wants the job back. And speaking personalluy, I dont know him too well, but if it was me I wouldn't want to do it again.

No one said johns position in the e-series club has to change.

[Aaron_EF8]

Originally Posted by polyal

Now, its not always going to be a popular choice, everyone knows that you can never please everyone, but decisions have to be made to keep the forum rolling in a manner which is best for all involved.

OK, explain how removing John as moderator is keeping the forum rolling better than John staying as moderator? If his status wasn't revoked, none of this would be happening.

To everyone suggesting a bridge building, just don't post in this thread, it is that simple. No-one is forcing you to post.

[Aaron_EF8]

Edit - my comment isn't helping this thread at all.

[megsy]

well after carefully reading the above and i support the AFF admin team for their decision and i trust that they did it as a last resort for whatever problem they are/were having.

i just have one question now, who is going to take the responsibility of moderator on the forums and will be online as often as john was? i trust the current moderators (trouty, montyV8) will be able to cover the forums (both general and meets) and keep it under control.

Regards

Simon

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Aaron_EF8

OK, explain how removing John as moderator is keeping the forum rolling better than John staying as moderator? If his status wasn't revoked, none of this would be happening.

To everyone suggesting a bridge building, just don't post in this thread, it is that simple. No-one is forcing you to post.

Explain how any of this discussion is going to change anything?

So John is put back (thats if he wants to, which I would doubt) how does that make it better? it would make the FFA admin team look silly. Its just not going to happen.

His status was revoked for a reason, that reason is only needed to be known by the Admin and John.

If you care so much, you must know him personally, and if so then go ask john himself why it all happened. Something like this doesn't happen over night.

And ill say it again, does anyone actually know if John wants the job back (obviously he cant voice his opinion right now, but someone close to him must know)? or even if its possible for that to happen?

Its just a sh|tty situation that didn't need to happen, but it did, and now there is no other alternative other than to get someone new to do the job.

None of this is personal by the way, its business, as much as it would be lovely for a forum to be run by the people, it isn't. And you know what happens to countries that are "run by the people". It doesn't work. You need some people to make desicions. And if you dont like them then tough.

Ive pretty much said what I think, so there is no point going on. But if people want to sit here and complain then fine.

[1TUFFUTE]

SOME OF U GUYS ARE WORSE THAN A PACK OF WHINGING WOMEN..AND THATS BAD.EVEN THEYD BE EMBARRESSED...GET OVER IT ALLREADY

This thread is another trouble causer anyway..cant people see that its not working...im sure theres better ways of handling things than sending the topic to the wolves to have a go

[russellw]

Interestingly the quote in the sig at the bototm of Aaron_EF8 's posts are actually very wise words especially in the context of this issue.

The bridge builders are the people who have managed to understand that the removal of a mod (our undeniable right) isn't the issue here but that there are wider issues between AFF and E-Series that we need to address.

In the final analysis there are only two ways to address these issues. One is with bridge builders working together to make whatever changes need to be made. The other sees us all deciding it is too hard and going our seperate ways.

I don't wish to see the latter and there are clearly some in your club who hold the same view but if the majority of your members have no further faith in the administration here then that may be the only option left.

This isn't my call - it is your club and thus your decision as a group.
If you want me to run a poll to that effect in this thread or another then I shall do so.

Russ