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The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk |
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25-01-2008, 12:05 AM | #31 | |||
Once more with feeling
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 537
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Quote:
The only thing that proves is they're idiots with a death wish to start with. A Hiace is not designed to do ANY of those things, and it STILL isn't objective, scientific or repeatable...
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Cheers JR |
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25-01-2008, 02:21 AM | #32 | |||
nou
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 634
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Quote:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=aZF8N9NItHI |
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25-01-2008, 10:23 AM | #33 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Northern Sydney
Posts: 1,908
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25-01-2008, 12:27 PM | #34 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 368
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These tests do in many ways re-create emergency situations where a similar thing (dynamically) would occur. Yeah people aren't going to race around a track in their Territory or Kluger, but when a car pulls in front of you when you are doing 60kms you would hope the esp / dsc etc would do some of the driving for you as 99% of drivers wouldn't have the ability to recover the car. The last thing you would want is a rollover.
If anyone lives near Galston Gorge in Sydney, take a Territory Ghia through there and you'll appreciate the 'car' and the importance of its excellent handling, something it appears from these tests the Kluger isn't up to speed with. **** |
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25-01-2008, 12:35 PM | #35 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,377
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Now that to me tells me this bloke is a bloody fool. |
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25-01-2008, 12:59 PM | #36 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Posts: 774
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Quote:
got any sources for this? any proof?
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Current -2011 Nissan 370z Coupe (6M)- -2006 Husqvarna SMRR450-
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25-01-2008, 01:01 PM | #37 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,377
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25-01-2008, 01:18 PM | #38 | |||
Meep Meep
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southside
Posts: 1,513
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Quote:
180kph seems excessive. Was this the speed the test was done at, or did the Kluger get special treatment?
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Thundering on.... |
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25-01-2008, 01:19 PM | #39 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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25-01-2008, 01:55 PM | #40 | ||
Starter Motor
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 11
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1. Why would they lie about the speed? Oh, a conspiracy. Of course.
2. If you have proof, post it. 3. It is a real world situation - you're travelling on a dirt road in your awd, and you go too hot into a corner. The ESP is supposed to save you. Supposed to. Or a roo jumps out and you swerve. 4. The klugar would struggle to get to 180kph. |
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25-01-2008, 02:34 PM | #41 | ||||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Northern Sydney
Posts: 1,908
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Quote:
As for everyone on here bagging Toyota's VSC/ESP, Wheel's Mag also tested the new 200 series Landcruiser, and had this to say: Quote:
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25-01-2008, 02:55 PM | #42 | |||
Once more with feeling
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 537
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Quote:
That's the easiest question of all to answer. OHS / Public Liability / Corporate Insurance Cover. As these press cars are being driven as part of the ACP employee's job, any injuries to any party come under the domain of corporate OHS. But like most insurance, this presupposes that you only have the absolute right to cover if you're within the law in your actions (eg: your car insurance wont cover you if you prang your car at a track day) So the story MUST be spun by the magazine to deflect any blame from them (at least from a corporate perspective) to preserve their insurance cover and minimise and increase in premium that should occur from this type of accident. Toyota will undoubtedly be frothing at the mouth over this behind the scenes (the not so subtle threat regarding telemetry not matching Wheels' version of the story in their response letter should show that), BUT, despite the potential damage to the relationship with a major advertiser, no corporate legal department would allow their mag to expose themselves to any sort of potential legal action by admitting any sort of fault in public or even worse by printing it in the magazine. With Australia going litigation crazy like America, it would be just plain stupid. Don't get me wrong, I don't think for a second that Wheels or ACP have an anti-Toyota agenda here, but they HAVE to play CYA now for the sake of their insurance company.
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25-01-2008, 03:21 PM | #43 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Quote:
At the end of the day, Ged Bulmer has totalled one of Toyota's Klugers worth $65,000, on a private race track, pushing the car to it's limits and beyond. Toyota has invited Wheels Magazine to re-test the vehicle under the correct ISO "Moose test" - which so far Wheel's has declined to do. |
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25-01-2008, 03:28 PM | #44 | |||
Meep Meep
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southside
Posts: 1,513
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Quote:
Thats a great theory, but an insurance company is probably going to say "We'll take a look at the telemetry". And if it was investigated by a OHS authority they'll say. "We'll take a look at the telemetry". Lying about the incident isn't going to do wheels any favours. Only Toyaota has something to gain by denying the incident.
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Thundering on.... |
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25-01-2008, 03:33 PM | #45 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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25-01-2008, 03:44 PM | #46 | |||
Meep Meep
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southside
Posts: 1,513
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Quote:
There is a first for everything. If Toyota feel that the product was unfairly slandered because of sloppy journalisim, they would probably more than happy to show off the telemetry reading. Or they could take Wheels to court for defamation. Although because the telemetry readout was taken by Toyota. It's inadmissable as evidence. As such would also be treated in such away by insurance companies etc.
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Thundering on.... |
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25-01-2008, 06:18 PM | #47 | ||||
Once more with feeling
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 537
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Quote:
Toyota get bad press, and ACP would lose millions in ad revenue. If it hadn't happened during the high profile COTY testing, it's a 50/50 bet the mag would have not mentioned the thing at all Quote:
The may make white goods on wheels with less passion than a nun, but having seen the business from the other side of the lens, I'll take Toyota's word on this incident over Wheels any day of the week. Remember that saying; "I read it on the internet so it must be true!" ??? Substitute the word "internet" with "Wheels" and you'll be getting close. Don't forget that it's produced by the same company that brings us the Holden sponsored best selling fiction monthly called Motor.
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Cheers JR |
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25-01-2008, 07:05 PM | #48 | |||
Meep Meep
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southside
Posts: 1,513
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Quote:
A black box recorder is removed by the appropiate Civil authority and if they are unable to retrieve the data themselves, its returned to the black box recorder manufacturer. The pilot doesn't remove it neither does the airline, on their behalf and then say "oh look it wasn't pilot error at all". Because the vehicle is owned by Toyota they cant be presenting evidence they gathered as fact. Courts don't just hand over evidence to those standing on trial to look after. Similiar situation with Toyota showing off the Kluger telemetry. I never trust anybody who has something to gain by lying, in this instance Toyota. If ACP were so worried about losing advertising dollars, why run the story? Because it was COTY special, I'm sure Toyota would have happily given a substitute vehicle and there was no need for Wheels to state "oh we rolled a car for the first time in 45 years, but that was our fault for trying too" The story however goes more along the lines of "the dynamics aren't that good (realitive though, I'm sure its a much better handeling car then a 20 year old Landcruiser). We tried testing the ESP and rolled. Toyota also had very poor dirt road ABS 10 years ago but know that has changed." The way I see it they rolled a Kluger and even if it was pushed beyond ISO limits if you actually sit down and read alot of ISO's you realise they don't mean jack """" in the real world.
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Thundering on.... |
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25-01-2008, 07:09 PM | #49 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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25-01-2008, 07:12 PM | #50 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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This is more what a 180kmh crash looks like (graphic warning)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzUn0yWwkMk
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2016 FGX XR8 Sprint, 6speed manual, Kinetic Blue #170 2004 BA wagon RTV project. 1998 EL XR8, Auto, Hot Chilli Red 1993 ED XR6, 5speed, Polynesian Green. 1 of 329. Retired 1968 XT Falcon 500 wagon, 3 on the tree, 3.6L. Patina project. |
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25-01-2008, 07:14 PM | #51 | |||
Starter Motor
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 15
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Quote:
Also, as far as people expecting an ESP/DSC/VDC system to save ones life in any and all situations, they may find themselves in a similar situation to the individual with brown pants from wheels magazine. Whilst an ESP system will invariably make a vehicle safer, even these systems cannot defy the laws of physics. Inertia can be difficult to overcome with a brake application here, or torque reduction there. It can be a case of too little too late. For more info on ESP/DSC have a look here http://www.bosch-esperience.com/uk/language1/index.html |
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25-01-2008, 11:38 PM | #52 | ||
please insert coins
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: hills.. western sydney
Posts: 562
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i cant understand why people are bagging fords and sticking up for toyotas on this forum. have they forgotten where they are
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It only takes me one drink to get into trouble...but i cant remember if its the 13th or 14th. |
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26-01-2008, 12:23 AM | #53 | |||
nou
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 634
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26-01-2008, 11:00 AM | #54 | |||
Peter Car
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Location: geelong
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26-01-2008, 11:15 AM | #55 | ||
Meep Meep
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southside
Posts: 1,513
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The pro toyota camp has gone quiet :
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Thundering on.... |
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26-01-2008, 01:35 PM | #56 | |||
please insert coins
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: hills.. western sydney
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Quote:
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It only takes me one drink to get into trouble...but i cant remember if its the 13th or 14th. |
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26-01-2008, 03:59 PM | #57 | |||
Oo\===/oO
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tamworth
Posts: 11,348
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Quote:
Well thats just silly speak... |
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26-01-2008, 05:30 PM | #58 | |||
Once more with feeling
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 537
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Quote:
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Cheers JR |
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26-01-2008, 05:55 PM | #59 | ||
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Foothills of the Macedon Ranges
Posts: 18,573
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I was recently reading that here in Vic they were talking about cheaper registration for vehicles equipped with ESP.
This example illustrates the absurdity of such a proposal, that ESP has shortcomings and is not the complete solution when a driver gets into trouble. Introducing driver training in vehicle controllability in certain situations as part of licence training would be a much better solution. There is none of this at present. |
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26-01-2008, 06:02 PM | #60 | ||
VFII SS UTE
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Central Coast
Posts: 6,353
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i dont understand the problem.
he let the car go into a controled slide waiting for the esp to take over and it failed, it was either off or proggramed wrong. fix it, a general recall to the nearest dealer or softwear reflash when serviced next.
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