German V Australian Car Culture

[UNR8D]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

NOT ALWAYS SO.... From a purely physics standpoint that may be true, RE stopping distances, reaction times etc. But this woudl account for only the physical aspects of driving. Driving involves humans, so it is mental/psychological also. Higher speed limits on open highways in good condition OVERALL have been proven to result in less deaths. i.e. it is safer to drive faster.

Those familiar with the Bruce Highway in QLD know the stretch between Mackay and Rockhampton (110km/h mostly) to be one of the straightest, flatest best visiblitity roads around. Pretty good condition too. It is also one of the most borring. Unless you enjoy looking at tree after tree you won't get much enjoyment from that piece of road.

Driving along it with a fellow member here (AU3XSR) as passenger, he remarked (it was his first time on that piece of road), gee this is a breeze to drive on. 110km/h feels too slow, there isn't another soul out here.

Then he saw a sign saying 'this stretch of road is a blackspot', that people had died along this stretch. He asks...how the f.... do they do that, there isn't even anything to hit!!! Precisely, boredom. Single car accidents off a road, clearly lost concentration and just drive clean off the road at the first (slight) bend.

The germans have stats to prove that lowering open road speed limits COSTS more lives than it saves. FACT. Its about balancing the risk. Maybe we should all drive 10km/h slower. Or what about 40km/h everywhere. Or how about just walk. Gee that will make a drive between Brisbane the gold coast a bit longer.

The statement 'driving faster is more dangerous' is a simplistic cop out. Government worked out the otehr optoins for road safety were too hard to implement or police, and it costs rather than generates revenue. Too hard basket so we get 'speed speed speed'.

^^ couldnt have said it better.

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by Peuty

There is an ad on TV for Alliance car insurance - it features a fat girl saying how she gets a discount because she is a safe driver.

The thing that annoys me is "being a safe driver" usually means you just haven't had any accidents.

My brother is the worst driver I have ever seen, but he is safe, cos he hasn't smashed into anyone/anything.

It's a load of crud. Not that I have had any accidents either mind you, but this mentality has been bred by tabloid television ignorance.

yeah, I saw that ad...first thing I thought of was that what they don't show is the yappy dog sitting on her lap while she is driving distracting her and her nearly colliding with a Cityrail bus or something

'Fraid most on here are correct - as much as I personally would like to see an increase in the speed limit on certain roads it would not be possible as they are goat track's at best and most people's driving mindset here in Australia is (or are) Gladiatorial or confrontational. Far too much road rage would result and it would degenerate into something akin to the chariot race from Ben Hur... we are, like it or not: not able to control our selfish "he can't push in like that or get the better of me" attitudes whilst driving... out: ing_sm :SaiyanSmi

[snappy]

I think they could actually make more money from taking away the speed limits of major freeways . In my opinion this is a major motivator for strict rules at present.
But could you imagine going from a unrestricted freeway at say 200kph to then a exit speed of 80kph the speed difference is huge and would feel like walking pace a few well placed speed camera's in these exit a surrounding roads , one would think these speed drops would generate huge incomes .

[XA-Coupe]

Frankly, if the speed limit was set on driver ability, most people in Australia would be on foot.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by platinumXR

'Fraid most on here are correct - as much as I personally would like to see an increase in the speed limit on certain roads it would not be possible as they are goat track's at best and most people's driving mindset here in Australia is (or are) Gladiatorial or confrontational. Far too much road rage would result and it would degenerate into something akin to the chariot race from Ben Hur... we are, like it or not: not able to control our selfish "he can't push in like that or get the better of me" attitudes whilst driving... out: ing_sm :SaiyanSmi

Our roads .... many freeways especially in Vic ..... are way better than ANY road in Europe. The Geelong Fwy for instance ...
Dont think that the roads are exceptional over there. They are nice and well signed roads but many are old and narrow with 4 lanes jambed in where we would have 3.

Agree though on the mentallity thing. Even education would not help in this case as its all to do with the mind set and culture of behavior on roads which starts at a very early age. Here its just "Stay off MY road!"



| [/url] |

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by XA-Coupe

Frankly, if the speed limit was set on driver ability, most people in Australia would be on foot.

[cycle myth]

Originally Posted by Peuty

Man you are so far off it's not funny.

Firstly, you forget that the police do not make the rules, they simply enforce them. It might surprise you to know that some of the biggest petrolheads I know are Police.

Secondly, where do you get the idea that dangerous driving is okay?

Yes - you are right Police enforce the rules - they also administer the collection of data on why accidents occur - there's issues when the speed reason box is ticked too man times - it just perpetuates the ignorance.

As a society would should be more up in arms that the enforcement agencies are pursuing the easy measure - (speed with a camera + revenue) and it doesn't pull the driver over and stop them - an actual police presence would together with other bad driving habits that cameras don't measure - AND ULTIMATELY SAVE LIVES.

... and I never said driving bad was ok - theres a bit of sarcasm in there somewhere - (I'm on the mark enough to spot that).

[lamborghinifan]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

NOT ALWAYS SO.... From a purely physics standpoint that may be true, RE stopping distances, reaction times etc. But this woudl account for only the physical aspects of driving. Driving involves humans, so it is mental/psychological also. Higher speed limits on open highways in good condition OVERALL have been proven to result in less deaths. i.e. it is safer to drive faster.

Those familiar with the Bruce Highway in QLD know the stretch between Mackay and Rockhampton (110km/h mostly) to be one of the straightest, flatest best visiblitity roads around. Pretty good condition too. It is also one of the most borring. Unless you enjoy looking at tree after tree you won't get much enjoyment from that piece of road.

Driving along it with a fellow member here (AU3XSR) as passenger, he remarked (it was his first time on that piece of road), gee this is a breeze to drive on. 110km/h feels too slow, there isn't another soul out here.

Then he saw a sign saying 'this stretch of road is a blackspot', that people had died along this stretch. He asks...how the f.... do they do that, there isn't even anything to hit!!! Precisely, boredom. Single car accidents off a road, clearly lost concentration and just drive clean off the road at the first (slight) bend.

The germans have stats to prove that lowering open road speed limits COSTS more lives than it saves. FACT. Its about balancing the risk. Maybe we should all drive 10km/h slower. Or what about 40km/h everywhere. Or how about just walk. Gee that will make a drive between Brisbane the gold coast a bit longer.

The statement 'driving faster is more dangerous' is a simplistic cop out. Government worked out the otehr optoins for road safety were too hard to implement or police, and it costs rather than generates revenue. Too hard basket so we get 'speed speed speed'.

ditto: how bout 130km/h speed limit on major freeways/ remote highways. unrestricted in super remote say NT WA west QLD etc

[cycle myth]

and how about + 10kmh ok in the right lane, and you can only be in the right lane if you are overtaking.

That would avoid the side by side bottleneck as no one can overtake if you fear of being photographed for 7kmh over the limit but helped traffic flow.

[mik]

to have decent roads all through Australia and the emergency services upgraded to germany`s standard, would cost a packet, not to mention our road system covers 7million sq kilometres odd, we can`t even get our rail crossings up to decent standard.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by mik

to have decent roads all through Australia and the emergency services upgraded to germany`s standard, would cost a packet, not to mention our road system covers 7million sq kilometres odd, we can`t even get our rail crossings up to decent standard.

That's hard for many to comprehend. If you look at area / pop / income from taxes put aside for the upkeep of roads we are doing very well with what comparatively limited funds we have.

Germany: 357,000 sq/km and a population of 83 million all chipping in in some way compared to Australia with its 7,868,850 sq/km and its measly 21.5 million people.

For what's it worth, we have it pretty good... crunch the numbers and you have to agree.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by lamborghinifan

ditto: how bout 130km/h speed limit on major freeways/ remote highways. unrestricted in super remote say NT WA west QLD etc

Yes this would be the idea. You'd also have to provide additional training on picking the right speed on unrestricted roads etc, and ram home the fact that not all cars might be able to safely cruise at the posted limit under all conditions. Courtesy is an issue also for cars doing a slower/faster speed than yourself. Poorer quality highways woudl stay at 100, good quality go to 110??? I know highways in FNQ that shouldn't even be 100 but they are, i reckon youd want to lower some of those to 80 ha ha!!!!!

I think most people would accept a reduction in speeds around towns and suburbs in return also. Too many varying speeds in my view. It should be 60km/h for main roads in suburbs, 80 for arterial and general limit 40. Stop this 50/70 business. Make it 40 for all suburban streets. Hell make school zones 25 if you want, i for one always drive very slowly through school zones (or even unsigned little villages with kids all over the place). Its hard to make a Falcon do less than 40 downhill but i do it anyway because its worth the (very minor) delay for the safety margin. I'd sooner make up the time (and some) doing a bit over in a 110 zone out on the motorway later where there are no people hiding behind parked cars thankyou.....

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

That's hard for many to comprehend. If you look at area / pop / income from taxes put aside for the upkeep of roads we are doing very well with what comparatively limited funds we have.

Germany: 357,000 sq/km and a population of 83 million all chipping in in some way compared to Australia with its 7,868,850 sq/km and its measly 21.5 million people.

For what's it worth, we have it pretty good... crunch the numbers and you have to agree.

But then 90% of Australia has no roads other than dirt tracks.

One of the problems is personal experience. If you speak to people from Melbourne or Sydney the concept of Highway is the Hume or Princess constantly covered in cars and trucks 24 hours a day and frequent traffic jams.

The last time I drove from Mt Isa to Charters Towers (Oct 2003) I only met 31 vehicles coming the other way (I especially counted them) and 2 of those were police mobile radar.

So on the high density roads an unlimited zone would probably be fairly dangerous whereas in woop woop less so.

Here is an idea to ponder. Two Hume Highways, one limited to 100km/h and open to all traffic, the other either open or at least 180km/h but restricted from trucks, buses, 4WDs, trailers of any sort, P platers, cars not fitted with 21st century safety components (ABS, crumple zones etc) and with a minimum of 130km/h and no exits except for major cities.

Everyone who wish to drive Syd to Mel would have a choice and if you did not want to go fast or your vehicle was not "good enough" then you used the other road.

[BlackLS]

Originally Posted by flappist

One of the problems is personal experience. If you speak to people from Melbourne or Sydney the concept of Highway is the Hume or Princess constantly covered in cars and trucks 24 hours a day and frequent traffic jams.

And you can tell who these people are as well. They sit in the right lane 20 under when traffic is light.

[mik]

Originally Posted by flappist

But then 90% of Australia has no roads other than dirt tracks.

One of the problems is personal experience. If you speak to people from Melbourne or Sydney the concept of Highway is the Hume or Princess constantly covered in cars and trucks 24 hours a day and frequent traffic jams.

The last time I drove from Mt Isa to Charters Towers (Oct 2003) I only met 31 vehicles coming the other way (I especially counted them) and 2 of those were police mobile radar.

So on the high density roads an unlimited zone would probably be fairly dangerous whereas in woop woop less so.

Here is an idea to ponder. Two Hume Highways, one limited to 100km/h and open to all traffic, the other either open or at least 180km/h but restricted from trucks, buses, 4WDs, trailers of any sort, P platers, cars not fitted with 21st century safety components (ABS, crumple zones etc) and with a minimum of 130km/h and no exits except for major cities.

Everyone who wish to drive Syd to Mel would have a choice and if you did not want to go fast or your vehicle was not "good enough" then you used the other road.

your right there are a lot of dirt roads, but made roads are considerable, take highway one, i thought it was 14000 k`s in length(i was wrong) but good old wiki gave me this.... Highway 1 is Australia's coastal highway, joining all mainland's state capitals and coastal towns, and circumnavigating the entire Australian continent. At a total length of more than 24,000 km (14,900 miles), it is the longest national highway in the world, THATS JUST ONE SINGLE HIGHWAY.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by mik

your right there are a lot of dirt roads, but made roads are considerable, take highway one, i thought it was 14000 k`s in length(i was wrong) but good old wiki gave me this.... Highway 1 is Australia's coastal highway, joining all mainland's state capitals and coastal towns, and circumnavigating the entire Australian continent. At a total length of more than 24,000 km (14,900 miles), it is the longest national highway in the world, THATS JUST ONE SINGLE HIGHWAY.

So how many national highways do we have?

If you wish to drive east to west how do you do that other than on the national highway?

How many choices north to south?

We call it the national highway, is it the Bruce, Pacific, Princess, Barkly, Stuart, Victoria Hwy, etc etc etc.

Have a look at USA and then add up the 0s and 5s then tell me how long THEIR national highway system is........

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by Peuty

There is an ad on TV for Alliance car insurance - it features a fat girl saying how she gets a discount because she is a safe driver.

The thing that annoys me is "being a safe driver" usually means you just haven't had any accidents.

If you’re going to quote a TV commercial, make sure you get all of the facts right. She is a fat UGLY girl. Please do not leave out such information in the future. : :

[Gabbs]

One thing that does annoy me though is when was the last speed limit increase. I know in WA at least the last one I can think of is the freeway going from 90 to 100.

[NC1183]

Your right about the straight boring roads, it happens out here all the time, sorry to the Victorian members, but its usually Vic people on their way to or from Queensland that end up in fatal accidents in New South Wales because they are used to the shorter distances between towns in Vic and the southern section of NSW.


Swordsman88 - Try going from Cobar to Broken Hill in NSW, 590km, one town, that you only pull up at if you're absolutely desperate, at the half way mark. The road is wider then most standard highways (two lanes, one in each direction) with a 110km/h limit. Its very easy to get beyond that and still feel comfortable.

[Hardtopxb]

I have been to Germany 3 times in the last 18 months,I observed the following..
They have good roads and bad roads.Autobanrs are generaly very good ( but get out of their way if you are traveling the speed limit),city roads are no better then most of ours,country and arterial roads are about the same.
The drivers are much the same as us. Some areas seem more aggressive(cities)Country drivers can be very pushy.I have seen some tru'ly horrific prangs on both the Autobarns and country roads..
Generaly I would rather drive in OZ.. At least I know where I stand..IMO..

[Jayden]

I dont want to share an unrestricted road with VN commodores. You would drive past a mangled burning wreck everyday of the week. :p

Im with you though, authority here hate people with anything faster than what they have. Ive slowly grown to hate the authority, I imagine a large percentage of this country is the same for all sorts of various reasons.

[barbarian]

Originally Posted by ST

The stupid thing about this article is that Germany's road statistics are far worse than Australia's.

Did the guy writing this even bother to read the accident/fatality rate in Germany when he asked why can't we travel 320km/h legally? Obviously not. The problem here is European's CAN'T drive, they just have their head so far up their *** they think they can.

If someone has to ask why Australia has realistically speed limited roads they need their head inspected. I wouldn't say they aren't too strict, but they have to draw the line somewhere.

Originally Posted by macca13

Let see after 5 minutes searching Australia ranked 11th in world with 8 deaths per 100,000 people Germany ranked 9th with 6.5 deaths per 100,000 people this was 2007 though.

[Peuty]

Originally Posted by Jayden

Im with you though, authority here hate people with anything faster than what they have.

Huh????? How do you figure that?

[Mark351]

I remember reading an article about a visiting German car industry member who was surprised we limited drivers to 100kph on safe, 3 lane freeways but had the same speed limit on country roads of greatly lesser quality.

Having driven in the UK at up to 100mph, I'm confused about that too...

[Cabbage]

Originally Posted by Jayden

I dont want to share an unrestricted road with VN commodores. You would drive past a mangled burning wreck everyday of the week. :p

Im with you though, authority here hate people with anything faster than what they have. Ive slowly grown to hate the authority, I imagine a large percentage of this country is the same for all sorts of various reasons.

??? Are you suggesting the cops hate you cause you have a faster car than they do and as a result you now hate them?? I must have misinterpreted what you said!

[500SEC]

Australian driving standards are the worst I've encountered anywere in the Western world. The main criticisms are:-

(1) they don't leave a great enough gap between themselves and the vehicle ahead;
(2) they have this annoying habit of driving at night with their fog lights switched on. That's worth a ticket in most Euro countries (unless it's foggy);
(3) there is a lack of mateship or courtesy on the road Eg, if there's a gap, their's a tendance to close it before someone else cuts in (like a lot of Asian countries); and
(4) pedestrians are rarely given the right of way (again, like a lot of Asian countries).

I've yet to see the apparent Australian tradition of a fair-go and mateship on the roads. More like every man for himself.

For these reasons, I find driving here a bit prime-evil and my perpetual fear is being hit in the rear.

Having said that, I can't ever imagine Australian drivers coping with German-style high speeds even if the roads are capable of it (some of them are). That would be mass suicide.

Nuff said.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by 500SEC

Australian driving standards are the worst I've encountered anywere in the Western world. The main criticisms are:-

(1) they don't leave a great enough gap between themselves and the vehicle ahead;
(2) they have this annoying habit of driving at night with their fog lights switched on. That's worth a ticket in most Euro countries (unless it's foggy);
(3) there is a lack of mateship or courtesy on the road Eg, if there's a gap, their's a tendance to close it before someone else cuts in (like a lot of Asian countries); and
(4) pedestrians are rarely given the right of way (again, like a lot of Asian countries).

I've yet to see the apparent Australian tradition of a fair-go and mateship on the roads. More like every man for himself.

For these reasons, I find driving here a bit prime-evil and my perpetual fear is being hit in the rear.

Having said that, I can't ever imagine Australian drivers coping with German-style high speeds even if the roads are capable of it (some of them are). That would be mass suicide.

Nuff said.

Great points you have made. Truth is that about the only thing australian drivers do as well as being bad drivers, is combative ones. Watching drivers out there (including often when i'm a pedestrian) is honestly sometimes like watching a wounded animal flail about in panic. Wild animals close to death can be a scary thing....i've seen wounded birds cause fear in grown men when they get like this.

Its just like that out there on the roads. A bunch of untrained, unskilled idgits all trying to 'outdo' each other in stupidity. If everyone drove cleanly and smartly, paid attention and with courtesy and common sense it would be much safer. When a left lane is merging, and you can see room behind you to slow up a bit, do so and let the poor guy in. At the same time, if you are the one merging, anticipate a possible gap and at least maintain pace....you can't merge from a standstill!!!!

The sad thing is that while we all rant on about this stuff, we are often part of the problem. When you are out there in it its easy to become part of the emotion...put on the 'race helmet' and do stupid and inconsiderate stuff as you desperately try to escape the mess. Recently i've been driving a range of less powerful 4 cylinder vehicles and more and more i'm thinking about staying far to the left lane with the trailers and carravans and just pottering along. With my falcon i had a even better method...i didn't drive in traffic at all. I take public transport. I recommend driving through your suburb at 3AM...its much more relaxing. Go try it!!!!

[qwiksix]

The 2 things in Germany that EVERYONE followed that I thought made a lot of sense:
- People always stick to the slow lane. The fear of having someone going +100km/h faster than you running up your date is a strong motivator
- the slower lanes are verbotten from overtaking. Even in crawling traffic, if the faster lane slows down, you MUST slow down and not overtake. This takes out some of the ridiculous lane changing that goes on.

We may have the same rules here, but they are either not followed or not enforced - or both.

qs

[merlin]

Big problem here is driver training (or complete lack of it) - I guess its convinient, cheap and "the norm" for parents to teach their kids to drive but professional certified training would be a better system.

Second problem is the highway patrols absolute refusal to book anyone for anything other than speeding. When was the last time you saw someone booked for driving in lane 3 (the overtaking lane) whilst 1 and 2 are empty? 300km/h cars here would be rear ending excels in the right hand lane doing 80.

Third problem is our culture - we have been absolutley bread in the last 5-10 years to believe speed kills - just listen to the rhetoric coming from ST in this thread. The road toll is a much more complex problem than simply just speed. Driving to the conditions would be a better campaign than speed kills. How anyone in their right mind can say that a limit of 100km/h on a modern multi lane freeway (I give you the M7, M2 and M4 in Sydney) is sufficient is simply amazing. I could sit on 150+ all day on these roads with no "safety" issue (even dodging the idiots), unfortunatly I would be thrown in jail. Is the system going to change anytime soon? Unfortunatley its only going to get worse, I fear we are heading more and more towards the UK's model of society unless we get someone with some vision into parliment....

[GTP owner]

Originally Posted by ST

The stupid thing about this article is that Germany's road statistics are far worse than Australia's.

Did the guy writing this even bother to read the accident/fatality rate in Germany when he asked why can't we travel 320km/h legally? Obviously not. The problem here is European's CAN'T drive, they just have their head so far up their *** they think they can.

If someone has to ask why Australia has realistically speed limited roads they need their head inspected. I wouldn't say they aren't too strict, but they have to draw the line somewhere.

There is a big problem with trying to draw conclusions based purely on deaths per 100,000 people. The biggest is that we do not get the appalling road conditons that they get in europe. For example, when was the last time you drove on snow or ice? I do regularly, but not to the extent that they get in europe. Last big frost we had a 19yo girl killed her best friend on a mild corner. I drove past 5 mins before, and it was very very slippery. TC light flashing most of the way at 50km/h. She lost control and went straight into oncoming traffic. No skills at car control or appropriate speed. It is a 100km/h section. Sad. But the conditions we have here in general are very mild. That in itself tends to skew the data.