When is it too much?

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Patty

Hi All,

I'm a keen reader of Motor and Wheels and I like to keep up with the latest car trends etc. But one thing that is troubling me slightly is the fact that car makers are bringing out gearboxes with more and more gears.

10 years ago a 6 spd auto was the best, then the German companies started with Dual clutch, 7, then 8, and now I read that even Ford are going to put their 10spd design in the mustang.

Now hear me out, I understand the extra ratios improve efficiency, and keep the cars within the optimum torque band. But hear lies the question. At what point will it effect the way the car feels behind the wheel? The way we feel the acceleration? I love driving around my old man's GT 6 spd in manual mode and it feels just right. The gears hold long enough to enjoy hearing the engine wind out, you hit redline at 6000 rpm in second, change to 3rd and it goes back down to 3000rpm or so and climbs back up. But if it were a 10spd, wouldn't you always be hovering between 5000-6000 rpm and not feeling the acceleration in the same way? Does that make sense?

My Mum has an audi with an 8spd and yeh it feels zippy but I find it frustrating how often it changes gear and to me it just doesn't feel right to me. It's not fun.

Does anyone catch my drift. At what point are we putting efficiency over fun?

A good V8 does not need to make all the rev's like a 6 or 4 cyl does to make good performance and a auto behind a good V8 can be nice.

4cyl and 6 have don't have the class as a V8 can.

The best sounding and best torque response I have come across was my XB 351 with a C4 auto, she only rev to 4800 and change gear but that's all she needed, it was a fully responsive control over the auto that did everything just right, you could not make a mistake.

With the ability of an auto so as to not change down to a lower gear when it's in manual mode, that's what you need to take advantage of that lower rev torque and noise, you are not flat out all the time and that jump back a gear that autos can do too a lower gear can be bloody annoying and I don't like that type of spastic radical response coming through some bends when I was enjoying a civilised response effortless bliss before that unwarranted delinquent mechanical act took place.

[castellan]

[QUOTE=poppa smurf;5740707]not sure what they weighed but the zephyrs, chevys, fairlanes and a few others that I was running back then were pretty close to it.....seemed that way anyway the way they behaved like a ship on the ocean great cars,

Originally Posted by GREGL

You forgot, no syncho on 1st gear. 90% of the population would not be able to drive one today whilst doing their makeup. It is a little known fact that the term ****** originally was uttered by a person waiting behind a young fella driving a crash box, they could see his arm frantically trying to get 1st.[/QUOTE

ah yes I did forget the old crash box.......I do remember the 143 turns from lock to lock on the XP falcon with the "pursuit", or was that the "super pursuit" 170 motor

and the way the VC valiant just runs down the road as if it owned the whole place.

fantastic memories of, sadly, bygone era in motoring history.......

I remember the first GT "super roo" when it was first released, 140 MPH straight out of the showroom floor, big wide tyres, ridiculous red, chrome 12 slots, aggressive stance, fire it up and watch the piddle drain from small children and old woman at 100 yards.....amazing stuff and the start of the "super car era"......I seen the RT charger in racing gear residing in our street, I was there to watch it evolve.

now it's start it up, stick in "D" for dopey and pick up your iPhone and start texting while the car takes you to hungry jacks with a few occasional glances......too easy now.

however, out of dreamland and back to the question at hand, I can see a major benefit in swags of gears if towing, but apart from a smoother ride under normal conditions (whatever they are) very little other benefit, repair costs will mean that sometime in the future the car will be written off if it blows a box of cogs.

That was the 170 pursuit and the big block full imported super pursuit 200 in the XM-P but remember the super pursuit 200 only in a auto as the manual box could no handle that type of power back in the day.

I hated them 3 on the tree shifting crap and can't believe that people liked that type of rubbish and that old crash box 1st gear was a joke.

I found some old people to be cool about fast cars, had this old dude at times walking down the street and my brother and I would be coming home flat out racing each other down a 60KM/H road and this old dude would get down on one knee right next to the road and make the chequered flag waving thing, he loved it.

It was a healthy Holden VS Ford thing back in the day and people loved it, you could get in a ferocious full on debate down the pub or race track with someone who would get up and start flapping there wings and crowing out loud, sadly there is no such thing today at all to speak about or for the last 20 years, it was greatest times 1968 to say 1986 and It all ended in about 1997 and became something other, boring and un Australian.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

With 8 gears, it might as well be a CVT.

The thing that concerns me, is what happens when they brake? Is it going to be worth fixing them?

Nope. (assuming you meant break) Current 6 speeds are around $1000 a gear to repair??
What will a 10 speed cost? $15,000 or more would be my guess.

I have a 24 speed auto in my truck. Yet only ever use 6.
It was designed to pull loads in excess of 300t.

It seems to me that today, people will always equate more as being better.

Only true when talking cylinders.

[Matty4]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

The thing that concerns me, is what happens when they brake? Is it going to be worth fixing them?

My guess is they'll just slow down and eventually come to a stop. No need to fix them.

[Olbucko]

How many people today can drive a car or truck with a real crash box, no synchromesh or dog clutches at all, when every change had to be double shuffled, and your technique was different when the box was cold.

Back then driving could be a lot more challenging and interesting, there were not many women or hairdressers clogging up the roads then.

[Bent8]

It's starting to get out of hand if you ask me.

8 speeds is all you need for most economy cars and 7 speeds for high performance cars.

All we have to do is look at the latest Bugatti which is still using the same 7-speed box from 2005 and can hit over 420kph

The latest exotics like the Aventador, Huracan, LaFerrari, McLaren P1, Porsche 918, Pagani Zonda all use a 7-speed box and some of these cars can reach speeds as high as 370kph !

Even the Nissan GT-R will reach 317kph with a 6-speed box !

F1 cars still have 8-speeds because any more means too many gear shifts which equals lost time on the track.

The new 10-speeds are simply marketing hype by Ford/GM which they claim can shift around 30 percent quicker than the Porsche PDK 7-speed unit.

Of course they haven't told us how many shifts are needed to cover the quarter mile yet !

[mik]

With all the extra electronics and safety crap in cars today which is heavy as hell , not forgetting all the luxury stuff that has stacks of electric motors and wiring , they probably need x amount of cogs to have any performance .

Going back to the oldies , the old 2 speeds in the v8`s where just so smooth on the take off, but was pretty leisurely at the same time , but kicking back to first at 60/70 mph ..... yeehah baby !
the old beat up slipping sludgematic 2 speed grey motored ej holdens that used get around ........... rev out to valve bounce at 4800 rpm then start to change gear .... then 10 seconds later WWAAaaaahhhhh slowly slip into 2nd gear/top gear at 65/70 kph ?
sounded terrible like finger nails across a chalk board .

[castellan]

Originally Posted by mik

With all the extra electronics and safety crap in cars today which is heavy as hell , not forgetting all the luxury stuff that has stacks of electric motors and wiring , they probably need x amount of cogs to have any performance .

Going back to the oldies , the old 2 speeds in the v8`s where just so smooth on the take off, but was pretty leisurely at the same time , but kicking back to first at 60/70 mph ..... yeehah baby !
the old beat up slipping sludgematic 2 speed grey motored ej holdens that used get around ........... rev out to valve bounce at 4800 rpm then start to change gear .... then 10 seconds later WWAAaaaahhhhh slowly slip into 2nd gear/top gear at 65/70 kph ?
sounded terrible like finger nails across a chalk board .

My mum had a New HR Holden 186 2speed auto 3.36 diff 13in wheels and it got up and went well for what it was and then got a XR Falcon 200 3speed auto, I liked the XR but the HR performed better and my sister had a HK 186 2speed auto with 3.36 diff it was gutless the extra weight and bigger wheels killed performance.
The HK 307 2 speed auto mainly came with 2,78 diff and they were gutless as, but the GTS307 came with 3.36 diff and they got up and went a lot better.

I remember a relations XM Falcon 2 speed auto with 200 super pursuit what a crap auto that was, she would slam into top gear.

The only hydramatic I have driven was a EK Holden with the big 138 Grey motor thrashing it down the paddock, I was surprised how well it went, auto worked real well and I could not believe that it went that well.

[Mercury Bullet]

2017 F-150 Raptor 10 speed teaser.

http://www.themustangnews.com/conten.../#.V7fLbo9OLIU

[Streets]

I like the feeling of less gears, it's better for cruising imo. In my old XF you could sit at 60kph right at the bottom of the 3rd (and final) gear and just cruise along. In the 6spd FG you're ripping through like 5 gears to cross an intersection, and then back down again when you come to a stop a hundred metres later. The shifts are smooth but the fact that it's always looking for a gear irritates me a little bit.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Streets

I like the feeling of less gears, it's better for cruising imo. In my old XF you could sit at 60kph right at the bottom of the 3rd (and final) gear and just cruise along. In the 6spd FG you're ripping through like 5 gears to cross an intersection, and then back down again when you come to a stop a hundred metres later. The shifts are smooth but the fact that it's always looking for a gear irritates me a little bit.

If you had 3 gears instead of 6 in the fg, you'd get 20l/100km instead of 10.

[GREGL]

Those extra gears may save you a couple of litres per 100( if that ) but in reality a overdrive gear which all cars possess nowadays is the big factor. Along with all the other fuel metering devices the have put into play.
If you look back a Falcon gt or torana in the pre emissions era which at the peak only put out 240-300 hp achieved 14-15 second 1/4s and depending on the diff ratio as well. If they offered a 5 speed it would not have altered the times by much. Fast forward to pre supercharger days and 6 speeders with 400 hp were not achieving much better.
Yes the fuel economy is/was better but more to do with fuel injection, computers and an overdrive top gear.
I witnessed what I think was a Bentley the other day and it must have gone through 3 gears within a 50 metres, and not by spirited driving, just keeping up with the traffic.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by GREGL

and it must have gone through 3 gears within a 50 metres, and not by spirited driving, just keeping up with the traffic.

that is the whole point. its about keeping the engines in the sweet spot. its not just about overdrives, its about moving 2tonne from a standstill in the most efficient way. its also less stressful on the drivetrain to have short low gears esp in heavier vehicles.

performance figures haven't taken a big leap forward because cars are much much heavier, emissions regulations are in play and final drive gearing is generally much taller. having more cogs in the box allows manufacturers to run much taller final drives.

the 6sp FG is more economical and faster than the 5 sp. same car. this is pretty much all down to 1st gear, rather than 6th.

cars aren't getting lighter. if anything they are getting heavier, with the market demanding more and more features, and safety systems becoming more and more complex, not to mention the autonomous aspect. combine that with the expectation that fuel economy should be forever coming down, and its little wonder manufacturers are looking at more and more cogs in the gearbox. its all about moving weight in the most efficient manner. even pushbikes are up to 11sp now

[monzie]

Originally Posted by prydey

you might be surprised to know that 'those cars' weren't actually that heavy. cars are heavier now than they've ever been.

a focus weighs nearly as much as 70's falcons.

Yes, but your forgetting about the bags of cement in the boot to make the old ones handle better.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by prydey

that is the whole point. its about keeping the engines in the sweet spot. its not just about overdrives, its about moving 2tonne from a standstill in the most efficient way. its also less stressful on the drivetrain to have short low gears esp in heavier vehicles.

performance figures haven't taken a big leap forward because cars are much much heavier, emissions regulations are in play and final drive gearing is generally much taller. having more cogs in the box allows manufacturers to run much taller final drives.

the 6sp FG is more economical and faster than the 5 sp. same car. this is pretty much all down to 1st gear, rather than 6th.

cars aren't getting lighter. if anything they are getting heavier, with the market demanding more and more features, and safety systems becoming more and more complex, not to mention the autonomous aspect. combine that with the expectation that fuel economy should be forever coming down, and its little wonder manufacturers are looking at more and more cogs in the gearbox. its all about moving weight in the most efficient manner. even pushbikes are up to 11sp now

I'm scratching my head trying to work out why they are being installed.
The only thing I can think of is emissions.

Why will the 2018 Mustang have 10 speeds, is the 6 speed 2017 car that slow or the 2018 model so much heavier that 10 is required?

I notice the manuals are staying at 6 speeds.

[Grunter]

Be this just my experience, I had a Jeep SRT with the 5 speed auto (terrible gearbox) and then traded into another Jeep SRT with the ZF 8 speed auto. Basically mechanically the same car (WK2 '13 into WK2 '15) gearbox aside.

The difference is huge, both in increased economy on the highway, but more importantly a big pick up in performance, both straight line and roll-on. Being a big lump of a car, having more gears seems to allow better gearing for more situations.

[FPV6]

Originally Posted by ebv8

yes lucky.
all those drivers cars are built to be the quickest possible and you would probably have trouble navigating a gear stick while going that fast.
i'm just talking about the bread and butter performance cars like GT's, Mustang and Clubsports, they sell mainly auto's but it kind of defeats the purpose of the car. I wouldn't even consider having my GT in auto but thats just me and i'm an individual.

also i'm happy for base models to be auto its just the all out GT350/500 should be a manual even if its slower on the track

You do realise that the auto is a more expensive options and who is going to want manual if its slower around the track

beside its an auto in manual mode

[FPV6]

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

Nothing more exciting than driving a 110HP 6cylinder with a two speed auto ..
You pull out to pass someone on 100kmh road and you'd better be sure the road is clear because you ain't going to get any kickdown to help with acceleration ..

or 351 with C6 3 speed clicking the shifter forward thing there gotta be another gear there

[FPV6]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

pocket full of money and a gut full of grog and a sheila on our arm right next to us in our bench seat......soft mob nowadays with their 6 and 8 gear plush limo's.......mind you, breakdowns were not so often and often as not a roadside fix.

is that funny what cool back then is considered stupid today

[Joel.]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Nope. (assuming you meant break) Current 6 speeds are around $1000 a gear to repair??
What will a 10 speed cost? $15,000 or more would be my guess.

Not sure about Ford gearboxes but the 6 speed auto in dads old '06 VW transporter was a bit over $6000 to repair. I would really hate to need a 10 speed rebuilding.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Grunter

Be this just my experience, I had a Jeep SRT with the 5 speed auto (terrible gearbox) and then traded into another Jeep SRT with the ZF 8 speed auto. Basically mechanically the same car (WK2 '13 into WK2 '15) gearbox aside.

The difference is huge, both in increased economy on the highway, but more importantly a big pick up in performance, both straight line and roll-on. Being a big lump of a car, having more gears seems to allow better gearing for more situations.

I actually didnt mind the 5 speed in the SRT you could really feel the gear changes, which made it feel faster (although I realise its not)
But putting the 8 speed in the diesel was awesome, more gears are suited to small power band diesels.

[Qwerty321]

I've only ever owned 4 Speed Automatics and I have never felt the need for any more gears. When I was in the market for a car, I could have gone the way of a 6 Speed ZF or a 4 Speed BTR and ultimately chose the BTR as a as it is far easier to deal with when it finally cakes it. With a ZF a rebuild is a must, with the BTRs a wrecker replacement is possible. The BTRs are also time tested rock solid boxes.

The thing with the 8 speeds and above is the car will often skip gears. Think of it like riding your old 18 speed bicycle. Did you go through every single one of those 18 gears? No. You'd go Gear 1, then 3 then whatever. I don't think there'll ever be a performance issue with too many gears, as when you reach that point it'll obviously be programmed to skip gears in circumstances where cycling through every single gear isn't preferable.

That said, the more complex gearboxes get the costlier the repairs will get. You cant necessarily price it on the number of gears it has, in the sense that if it costs 6k to repair a ZF 6, it's going to cost 12k to replace a 12 speed, there's obviously far more factors involved in the repair cost than just the number of gears.

[GREGL]

Not much point going above XT level either by what wikpedia say.. .
No doubt repair costs for a zf should come down as time passes but the fact remains that they will be more expensive to repair/replace than almost any other part on the car and would be short of an accident the main reason they go to a wrecker.

The XT is the base model of the FG Falcon range. The XT has a business class suspension tune: the rear suspension is Ford's Control Blade IRS, and the front suspension is virtual pivot link, the same architecture as found in the Territory. The brakes are carried over from the BF Falcon. The engine is the revised I6 Barra Engine which now produces 195 kW (261 hp) at 6000 rpm and 391 N·m (288 lb·ft) of torque, 201 kW / 409Nm of torque is available with RON95 fuel. These figures further rise to 208 kW (279 hp) and 420 N·m (310 lb·ft) on premium 98 octane fuel. The 6000rpm peak power band allows for faster pick-up acceleration, better overtaking acceleration and overall engine's willingness to accelerate compared to more hesitant BA/BF variants.

The XT engine specification is identical to the non-turbo XR6, G6, G6E and Utility vehicle variants powered by the 4.0L engine. At launch, the standard transmission was a new 5-speed auto, replacing the previous Australian designed and made 4-speed. The ZF 6-speed auto was optional from the launch in 2008, and has a slightly however insignificantly quicker performance in gears above the second gear as compared to the French designed 5 speed and slightly better fuel economy due to slightly quicker shifts in third, fourth, fifth and sixth gears; and more regularly engaging clutch lock-up. This is primarily due to the software the operates the ZF unit but also the unit's inherit mechanical shift quality. In July 2010, the 6-speed was made standard. Both the 5- and the 6- speed retain the 3.73:1 final open differential ratio with LSD optional on XR6 models. During numerous tests a standard 5- or 6- speed FG XT 4.0L petrol is capable of outrunning all previous generations of non-turbo Falcons as well as some previous generation V8 models; thus exhibiting quicker performance than for example a 5.4L 3V 4-speed automatic Falcon of the sixth generation.[citation

[prydey]

wiki needs correcting.

diff ratio is 2.73 not 3.73. gets 3.45 for the manual. (3.73 for xr8 manual).

[Grunter]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

I actually didnt mind the 5 speed in the SRT you could really feel the gear changes, which made it feel faster (although I realise its not)
But putting the 8 speed in the diesel was awesome, more gears are suited to small power band diesels.

I think I was spoilt coming from the Falcon/Territory with the ZF 6 speed, so jumping straight in the Jeep, the differences with the Jeep's 5 speed were very noticeable. My biggest gripe was it feeling like it was always in the wrong gear, holding to long, or chugging before down changing.

One thing I did like about the 5 speed, was the shift firmness and pop and crackle on gear changes at WOT. Certainly sounded the part!

[chevypower]

All the Chrysler vehicles with the 5.7 Hemi V8 woke up big time when they changed them from the 5 and 6 speeds to the ZF 8 speed. It made a night and day difference. I don't know why people think that 6 gears are the ultimate in technology. I have 1037Nm of torque and a nice 6 speed Allison automatic. I would love more gears, especially for towing heavy loads. More gears will keep the rpm in the sweet spot, where you want it. If a 10 speed would slow it down, then the ratios and the programming would not be where they should be. Why would they do that? It's going to be an improvement. I can't wait for Ford and GM to get their 10 speeds.
Other examples where we have previously heard we are at the pinnacle of technology:
1. You will never need more than 2GB of hard drive space.
2. Your eyes cannot detect resolution greater than 1080p.
3. Why would anyone need 215Kw in an HSV?

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Grunter

I think I was spoilt coming from the Falcon/Territory with the ZF 6 speed, so jumping straight in the Jeep, the differences with the Jeep's 5 speed were very noticeable. My biggest gripe was it feeling like it was always in the wrong gear, holding to long, or chugging before down changing.

One thing I did like about the 5 speed, was the shift firmness and pop and crackle on gear changes at WOT. Certainly sounded the part!

You certainly have more experience having owned them to pick up the Characteristics, I've only test driven. but yes its that firm gear change I liked.

do you think the future SRT would be better with 10 gears?
IMO 8 is plenty for the V8 Turbo.

But I think 10 in the diesel would be great, keeping a diesel in its powerband can make a pretty quick vehicle.

[Junkyard-Dog]

Originally Posted by chevypower

3. Why would anyone need 215Kw in an HSV?

They finally made one with more than 215kw?

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

They finally made one with more than 215kw?

Only if you spend another $10,000 and order the Blueprint edition for an extra 10kW! It's an awesome deal when you think about it.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by GREGL

During numerous tests a standard 5- or 6- speed FG XT 4.0L petrol is capable of outrunning all previous generations of non-turbo Falcons as well as some previous generation V8 models; thus exhibiting quicker performance than for example a 5.4L 3V 4-speed automatic Falcon of the sixth generation.[citation

LOL.

What test? 0-5km/h?