Vfacts september 2022

[Adamz Ghia]

I have a question, I’m not sure if it’s a dumb one or not but here goes anyway.

With electric cars, they give you the range, is that range dedicated to moving the car or does aircon, stereos, screens ect affect it?

Say it’s a hot summers day, the range says 400km but you’ve got the aircon cranking, stereo up, kids charging their iPads or what ever. Are you still going to get 400km out of it or will it drop to say 300?

[DFB FGXR6]

Citroen
Citroen C3 3
Citroen C3 Aircross 0
Citroen C4 4
Citroen C5 Aircross 0
Citroen Total 7

Peugeot
Peugeot 2008 28
Peugeot 3008 62
Peugeot 308 0
Peugeot 5008 8
Peugeot 508 3
Peugeot Boxer 1
Peugeot Expert 34
Peugeot Partner 4
Peugeot Total 140

Even SsangYong out sell the two French brands -

SsangYong
SsangYong Korando 42
Ssangyong Musso/Musso XLV 4X4 222
Ssangyong Rexton 136
SsangYong Total 400

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

I have a question, I’m not sure if it’s a dumb one or not but here goes anyway.

With electric cars, they give you the range, is that range dedicated to moving the car or does aircon, stereos, screens ect affect it?

Say it’s a hot summers day, the range says 400km but you’ve got the aircon cranking, stereo up, kids charging their iPads or what ever. Are you still going to get 400km out of it or will it drop to say 300?

Like anything consuming power, the more load you put on the car, the more energy you consume.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

Like anything consuming power, the more load you put on the car, the more energy you consume.

Yep - and hopefully the ones like LDV/Nissan aren't using resistive heating elements for in cabin HVAC otherwise you use the heater and you'll kill a ****load of juice just keeping the cabin warm.

I think Tesla has moved to reverse cycle for heating in their cars, much more efficient way of cabin climate control.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

Citroen
Citroen C3 3
Citroen C3 Aircross 0
Citroen C4 4
Citroen C5 Aircross 0
Citroen Total 7

Peugeot
Peugeot 2008 28
Peugeot 3008 62
Peugeot 308 0
Peugeot 5008 8
Peugeot 508 3
Peugeot Boxer 1
Peugeot Expert 34
Peugeot Partner 4
Peugeot Total 140

Even SsangYong out sell the two French brands -

SsangYong
SsangYong Korando 42
Ssangyong Musso/Musso XLV 4X4 222
Ssangyong Rexton 136
SsangYong Total 400

Makes a mockery of Ford Australia culling the Focus ST and the Fiesta ST when there's an entire brand that only sold 7 cars in a month.

Imagine being a Citroen salesperson, someone would walk in the door and they wouldn't know what to do, or they'd be like, are you lost?

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

I have a question, I’m not sure if it’s a dumb one or not but here goes anyway.

With electric cars, they give you the range, is that range dedicated to moving the car or does aircon, stereos, screens ect affect it?

Say it’s a hot summers day, the range says 400km but you’ve got the aircon cranking, stereo up, kids charging their iPads or what ever. Are you still going to get 400km out of it or will it drop to say 300?

Interestingly, the warmer it gets, the more range you get as the batteries like warmer weather. Your range at 30 degress is considerably more than 20 degrees or less. Screens don't use the main battery, they run off the 12v like other cars.

Most newer EVs use Heatpumps that are stupidly efficient as well even in winter. In Australia, with our mild winters and warm summers, the country is perfect for EVs. You won't see much loss running the aircon, stereo, etc. The load on the 12v is much less.

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

I have a question, I’m not sure if it’s a dumb one or not but here goes anyway.

With electric cars, they give you the range, is that range dedicated to moving the car or does aircon, stereos, screens ect affect it?

Say it’s a hot summers day, the range says 400km but you’ve got the aircon cranking, stereo up, kids charging their iPads or what ever. Are you still going to get 400km out of it or will it drop to say 300?

They're just like the economy in ice vehicles something you can never achieve real world is way less same for EV range watch a few reviews on a certain model and you normally get the real world range a lot that say 400km the real world is around 320km , you have to factor in whether it's hilly terrain or high winds , night driving etc and unlike ice vehicles the economy will Improve as it frees up with EV,sthe range can only deplete as the battery deteriorates

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kypez

Interestingly, the warmer it gets, the more range you get as the batteries like warmer weather. Your range at 30 degress is considerably more than 20 degrees or less. Screens don't use the main battery, they run off the 12v like other cars.

Most newer EVs use Heatpumps that are stupidly efficient as well even in winter. In Australia, with our mild winters and warm summers, the country is perfect for EVs. You won't see much loss running the aircon, stereo, etc. The load on the 12v is much less.

There's a clue with batteries - CCA (cold cranking amps) - how much current they're rated for at -18 deg C.

Or when its winter and your car battery suddenly decides to crap out, which is always conveniently when its cold AF

The fact they used resistive heating at all in EVs was very short sighted, all you need to be able to do is reverse the operation of an A/C system (hence 'reverse cycle') - the evaporator then basically becomes the condenser in 'heat mode'.

They don't bother in ICE because, well you have a conveniently located cooling system with waste heat

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

There's a clue with batteries - CCA (cold cranking amps) - how much current they're rated for at -18 deg C.

Or when its winter and your car battery suddenly decides to crap out, which is always conveniently when its cold AF

The fact they used resistive heating at all in EVs was very short sighted, all you need to be able to do is reverse the operation of an A/C system (hence 'reverse cycle') - the evaporator then basically becomes the condenser in 'heat mode'.

They don't bother in ICE because, well you have a conveniently located cooling system with waste heat

Yep. As usual, Tesla were first with the Heatpump in the EV game. Much more efficient in Winter.

The old VW beetles had a flap in the back that you opened to let the engine heat into the cabin.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

These numbers break my heart, these cars are far better than that -

Jaguar
Jaguar E-Pace 23
Jaguar F-Pace 27
Jaguar F-Type 6
Jaguar I-Pace 0
Jaguar XE 1
Jaguar XF 1
Jaguar XJ Series 0
Jaguar Total 58

Too expensive and better options for similar money. I'd have bought a E-Pace but they were just so stupidly priced for what they gave you. I'm not cross shopping it against a corolla, but even in that range, it was wayyyy tooo much.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by PooDog

They're just like the economy in ice vehicles something you can never achieve real world is way less same for EV range watch a few reviews on a certain model and you normally get the real world range a lot that say 400km the real world is around 320km , you have to factor in whether it's hilly terrain or high winds , night driving etc and unlike ice vehicles the economy will Improve as it frees up with EV,sthe range can only deplete as the battery deteriorates

There is a point of inflection when ICE start to drop as well.

Interestingly, my new Model Y is rated to 455kms and I got 425kms out of it on our first run. Its stupidly efficient. They're getting much closer to the official figures in the real world. Come summer, I reckon I could get that 450 number.

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by kypez

There is a point of inflection when ICE start to drop as well.

Interestingly, my new Model Y is rated to 455kms and I got 425kms out of it on our first run. Its stupidly efficient. They're getting much closer to the official figures in the real world. Come summer, I reckon I could get that 450 number.

Tesla is probably one of the better examples......spose you get what you pay for

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by kypez

There is a point of inflection when ICE start to drop as well.

Interestingly, my new Model Y is rated to 455kms and I got 425kms out of it on our first run. Its stupidly efficient. They're getting much closer to the official figures in the real world. Come summer, I reckon I could get that 450 number.

That’s great to hear and goes further to moving beyond the perception of early short range BEVs.
I’ll be interested to see how well the Y holds its resale value, a good case for upgrading every three years.

The Y looks like a perfect fit for a lot of potential EV buyers, watching with interest over the summer.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by jpd80

That’s great to hear and goes further to moving beyond the perception of early short range BEVs.
I’ll be interested to see how well the Y holds its resale value, a good case for upgrading every three years.

The Y looks like a perfect fit for a lot of potential EV buyers, watching with interest over the summer.

Some comparisons with performance times:

Model S 75 (0-100 4.4sec) - 180wh/km
Model 3 Performance (0-100 3.4sec) - 180wh/km
Model 3 Long Range (0-100 4.4sec) - 165wh/km
Model Y (0-100 6.9sec) - 128wh/km

No surprise that the Y is so efficient when they have reduce the power (only 225kw now) for better efficiency.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by PooDog

Tesla is probably one of the better examples......spose you get what you pay for

To be fair, its a combination of better testing. The old NEDC was rubbish for EVs and Tesla numbers were equally out of sync with real world expectations. WLTP is much closer to real world testing.

Oh, and Model Y just set a record for the highest ever ANCAP test rating ever!

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by kypez

Interestingly, the warmer it gets, the more range you get as the batteries like warmer weather. Your range at 30 degress is considerably more than 20 degrees or less. Screens don't use the main battery, they run off the 12v like other cars.

Most newer EVs use Heatpumps that are stupidly efficient as well even in winter. In Australia, with our mild winters and warm summers, the country is perfect for EVs. You won't see much loss running the aircon, stereo, etc. The load on the 12v is much less.

Yes but the 12V has to to come from somewhere, it's not "free" energy.

In a full electric car (i.e. non-hybrid) ALL power is sourced from the main battery, so any 12V appliance will adversely effect range. Some items (screens etc.) don't draw much current, much an A/C unit or heater will. Heat-pumps are a bit more efficient though.

This is a major drama with EVs. If you fully load them, overly use the throttle, attach a heavy trailer, plus use the lights & a/cond to excess, the range will go down the tubes very quickly, far more so than with an ICE car.

Dr Terry

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Smoke Pursuit

If Ford can secure more Ranger & Everest supply they will make it to number 2. I however can't see them securing much more then they are now.

There will be more production increases next year. The plants have had significant upgrades and extra capacity was one of the end goals.

Orders haven't even tailed off the slightest, so it's just a case of being able to build as many cars as they can get enough parts for that will determine final sales numbers, but it's on the up. We saw that last month with the sales figures becoming very solid.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Yes but the 12V has to to come from somewhere, it's not "free" energy.

In a full electric car (i.e. non-hybrid) ALL power is sourced from the main battery, so any 12V appliance will adversely effect range. Some items (screens etc.) don't draw much current, much an A/C unit or heater will. Heat-pumps are a bit more efficient though.

This is a major drama with EVs. If you fully load them, overly use the throttle, attach a heavy trailer, plus use the lights & a/cond to excess, the range will go down the tubes very quickly, far more so than with an ICE car.

Dr Terry

It actually is free energy. Every time you brake, drive down a hill, etc, the system regenerates enough energy to charge the 12v battery several times over to be fair. An aircon uses 0.5kW or 0.5kWh for every hour it is on if that. The battery is 60-100kWh. Its a rounding error. The system will recoup the loss on a small decline.

Trailer, yes. Throttle, yes. Rest, no. Like I said, I don't see much of a drop due to accessories. I see more of a drop on colder days (even if not using the heating) or use of resistant type heaters (such as seat warmers). But they are looking to change that as well with the HVAC being used rather than resistance type seat heaters (if they can use the AC for seat cooling, they can do it for heating as well).

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

.

This is a major drama with EVs. If you fully load them, overly use the throttle, attach a heavy trailer, plus use the lights & a/cond to excess, the range will go down the tubes very quickly, far more so than with an ICE car.

Dr Terry

That's the issue with energy density of current battery technology, they need to do a generational leap in battery technology for this to not be quite the problem it is now.

Imagine if you could store 20x the current amount of energy in a battery the same size.

At the moment you basically need 20kg of battery to store the same amount of energy as 1kg of diesel.

I reckon a battery out of a crashed Tesla would be awesome a house battery for off grid usage, but I'm not sure how nicely inverters would play with something that's 450V DC instead of the more common 48V DC an off grid house uses for its battery bank.

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by kypez

It actually is free energy. Every time you brake, drive down a hill, etc, the system regenerates enough energy to charge the 12v battery several times over to be fair. An aircon uses 0.5kW or 0.5kWh for every hour it is on if that. The battery is 60-100kWh. Its a rounding error. The system will recoup the loss on a small decline.

Trailer, yes. Throttle, yes. Rest, no. Like I said, I don't see much of a drop due to accessories. I see more of a drop on colder days (even if not using the heating) or use of resistant type heaters (such as seat warmers). But they are looking to change that as well with the HVAC being used rather than resistance type seat heaters (if they can use the AC for seat cooling, they can do it for heating as well).

But the regeneration always runs at a loss at the moment you can't regenerate more power braking than you use getting up to speed the same for down a hill you still use more climbing the hill.......maybe in the future, sure the power use of ancillary equipment has been decreased by efficiencies but its still going to eat away at the range while it's charging the 12v battery there's less charge going into the main battery

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by kypez

To be fair, its a combination of better testing. The old NEDC was rubbish for EVs and Tesla numbers were equally out of sync with real world expectations. WLTP is much closer to real world testing.

Oh, and Model Y just set a record for the highest ever ANCAP test rating ever!

With the model Y finally Tesla has built something that looks OK IMO

[kypez]

Originally Posted by PooDog

But the regeneration always runs at a loss at the moment you can't regenerate more power braking than you use getting up to speed the same for down a hill you still use more climbing the hill.......maybe in the future, sure the power use of ancillary equipment has been decreased by efficiencies but its still going to eat away at the range while it's charging the 12v battery there's less charge going into the main battery

True. I was getting that the 12v charging would be handled with the amount regenerated. At the end of the day, ICE simply loses this energy. The losses are tiny in the scheme of things. I was surprised as I expected on a hot day with the Aircon going, for the range to drop. Only to learn that driving with the windows open saw the car use more energy (10% more) than driving with the windows open and aircon going in warm weather.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by PooDog

With the model Y finally Tesla has built something that looks OK IMO

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I love my Model S. I think its the best looking Tesla IMO. I don't really care for the 3 and Y in the looks department.

[Vekgib]

Can someone explain what regeneration of electricity has to do with the numbers of cars sold in September ?

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Vekgib

Can someone explain what regeneration of electricity has to do with the numbers of cars sold in September ?

Simple. Ranger and Hilux have second and first Sown up so there is not much news here. We are discussing why a particular car is now the 3rd highest selling car in Australia a month after its launch. All these things discussed are why they're number 3. Stick around, you might learn something new.

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[prydey]

Originally Posted by jpd80

So in roughly 18 months, Tesla has gone from insignificant sales to roughly 6% of new vehicle sales,

Originally Posted by kypez

. We are discussing why a particular car is now the 3rd highest selling car in Australia a month after its launch.

Let's not get too carried away. 6% of new vehicle sales would be around 60000/yr. How are they going year to date?

Also, model Y isn't the 3rd highest selling car in Australia.

It will be a long time before EV's are sold in meaningful numbers in Australia.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by prydey

Let's not get too carried away. 6% of new vehicle sales would be around 60000/yr. How are they going year to date?



Also, model Y isn't the 3rd highest selling car in Australia.



It will be a long time before EV's are sold in meaningful numbers in Australia.

I thought it was understood given we are talking September V Facts that my comment was about the month of September. If you prefer, 3rd highest selling car in Australia for September. Happy now?

Meaningful numbers mean different things to different people it would seem. I find the result quite meaningful for a single model when even Hilux and Ranger only make up 70,000 to 80,000 units themselves which are backed by huge tax incentives.

By end of the year, they should be around 25,000 units sold which is great considering they had several months of zero shipments due to COVID issues and demand for LHD. That's double their 2021 YTD and have already gone past that number for this year with 3 months to run.

Most people said they'd never generate 1,000 sales a year. It's quite remarkable.



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[Franco Cozzo]

Price for a 2.7L povvo spec Workmate Hilux seems like drug money, second hand examples going for OVER $30K?

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Price for a 2.7L povvo spec Workmate Hilux seems like drug money, second hand examples going for OVER $30K?

Tax benefits. Just like the first home buyers grant saw the prices of homes adjust by that amount, people will pay for the depreciation schedule and other benefits.

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[prydey]

Originally Posted by kypez

Meaningful numbers mean different things to different people it would seem.

Sure do. I'm not against electric vehicles. Just commenting on the picture as a whole. Around 1million vehicles are sold each year. How many are electric?