Victorian Road Toll - 2023 Worst year for road deaths since 2008

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Yes, their parents.

Trevor, deadly serious.

It's been over 23 years since I worked as a drivet trainer, and longer than since I taught a L plater to licence stage, but thanks for thinking of me. I tend to stay out of those debates these days

[Trevor 57]

But I will say, and as far as I am aware car driver licensing is still done by a State Authorities in every State and Territory, different for heavy vehicle and motorcycle.

So regardless of who teaches a learner there is still a mimimum State/Territory standard that has to be achieved.

Whilst some are focussing on the person teaching but the ultimate responsibility for issuing a car licence sits with the Licensing Authority. Look there if there if there is a problem

And yes, I have sat through a Coroners Court case of the death of a person in a heavy vehicle crash where the VicRoads licence tester was absolutely grilled by lawyers about the licence test

[simon varley]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

It's been over 23 years since I worked as a drivet trainer, and longer than since I taught a L plater to licence stage

I just took both my daughters through to Ps in Vic. Eldest was at the end of Covid shutdown, so that was a real struggle getting the 120 hours in, and the youngest just passed her test last August. Both girls had a couple of instructor lessons paid for by nan, but the majority of the time in the car was with me. One of the things that really surprised me was that crossing arms is now allowed! Back in the stone ages, that was a massive fail.

Also - neither girl had to perform an emergency stop in the test. Maybe that explains a few rear-enders? (BTW they both did practise the stop with me )

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by simon varley

I just took both my daughters through to Ps in Vic. Eldest was at the end of Covid shutdown, so that was a real struggle getting the 120 hours in, and the youngest just passed her test last August. Both girls had a couple of instructor lessons paid for by nan, but the majority of the time in the car was with me. One of the things that really surprised me was that crossing arms is now allowed! Back in the stone ages, that was a massive fail.

Also - neither girl had to perform an emergency stop in the test. Maybe that explains a few rear-enders? (BTW they both did practise the stop with me )

Mine was drive around Sunbury for 50 minutes, they gave me the 3 point turn instead of the parallel park - that was in 2010.

[Trevor 57]

50 minutes is long test, I think they are either a 20 or 30 minute test now

Mind you, back in 1975 when I got mine at the Cowes Police Station, I did 3 right turns, the policeman (not my dad) took me to a local garage to look at a car that 3 local kids had died in the night before, then back to the Station, no reverse park, no handbrake start, no 3 point turn, just a drive to the garage and back. My dad had my licence written up for me when I got back

I always laugh (and challenge) at old people when they whinge about young people and how they get their licences. I ask them how they got theirs, funny how they shut up straight away and then smile

My point received loud and clear lol

[Citroënbender]

Originally Posted by simon varley

Also - neither girl had to perform an emergency stop in the test. Maybe that explains a few rear-enders? (BTW they both did practise the stop with me )

What was your “trigger” for the stop? Just curious - have seen a few ways.

[Trevor 57]

I taught all my 4 kids emergency stopping, I also took them on rural roads up to 100km/h and got them to put 2 wheels in the gravel on the side, then got them to gently steer it back, emphasising that there is no need to panic if they drop off the side of the road.

So many roll their cars over-correcting in that situation

[lra]

Originally Posted by simon varley

One of the things that really surprised me was that crossing arms is now allowed! Back in the stone ages, that was a massive fail.

That is a big surprise.
I thought the hand shuffle was the only allowable method now.
When I queried that with one of my learner driver grandsons, he had been told that air bags had made the crossed arm method dangerous.
I still do the crossed arms, so maybe one day I will get a face full of elbows.

[Trevor 57]

Learners are not required to do pull-push steering on a licence test

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

True, but are harsher laws actually going to change that? I can’t see it making much difference to people who habitually drive unlicensed and have no great respect for the rules generally. If they are significant contributors to the road toll (whether by killing themselves or causing deaths of others) then the law-making approach is doomed to failure.

Agree. Stricter rules only affect those who already do the right thing.

Bringing in additional rules is pointless if you are trying to punish those who break the rules.

[383hq]

Originally Posted by simon varley

it's not so much the paid instruction, but 120 hours, while it may seem a good idea, is absolutely reliant on those 120 hours being with a decent supervising driver. There is anecdotal evidence that many Learners spend 120 hours doing the same route to school and the shops every week, and not getting the experience of different conditions they really need.

120 Hrs?

You are solo in a plane after 7-20 hours of dual instruction.
(although much fewer ****heads up there)

That's dumber then loosing your newly acquired P license in SA if caught doing 110 in a 110 zone twice in 2-3 years..

I'd have the kid "drive" Melbourne to Darwin and back if its 120 hrs in a log book.

Its the mobile phone attention that worries me, not lots of log book time.

[prydey]

Many of these threads the topic often turns to driving standards and then to current licensing.

Well, I do my fair share of driving around as well and from what I see, is not the young kids driving like idiots or disregarding road rules etc...

90% of failure to indicate would be older people... Impatience and lack of tolerance is also largely exhibited by those more experienced.

I think the younger crowd get singled out unfairly. I don't think feature any more or less than any other age group. And it's certainly not easier to get your licence now. My old man drove to the cop shop, drove the cop around the block and got given his licence. Many of his era tell similar stories.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by simon varley

it's not so much the paid instruction, but 120 hours, while it may seem a good idea, is absolutely reliant on those 120 hours being with a decent supervising driver. There is anecdotal evidence that many Learners spend 120 hours doing the same route to school and the shops every week, and not getting the experience of different conditions they really need.

Agreed 100%.
It is absurd that learners are able to 'learn' their parents bad habits for 100odd hours before they are required to be shown the correct methods of car control by a licensed instructor that'll have them for less than a 10th of that time.
It could and should be the other way round but that would require common sense applied.
Infact I'd suggest that if a learner who undertakes say 10hrs with an instructor prior to commencing the balance of their hours with a friend/relative goes on to fail the test it shows they didnt take on board or continue to practice those correct methods and dont deserve to drive until they do.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by prydey

I think the younger crowd get singled out unfairly. I don't think feature any more or less than any other age group. And it's certainly not easier to get your licence now. My old man drove to the cop shop, drove the cop around the block and got given his licence. Many of his era tell similar stories.

Unfortunately statistice prove you wrong, they do **** loads of things wrong, die in crashes and kill others in crashes

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Agreed 100%.
It is absurd that learners are able to 'learn' their parents bad habits for 100odd hours before they are required to be shown the correct methods of car control by a licensed instructor that'll have them for less than a 10th of that time.
It could and should be the other way round but that would require common sense applied.
Infact I'd suggest that if a learner who undertakes say 10hrs with an instructor prior to commencing the balance of their hours with a friend/relative goes on to fail the test it shows they didnt take on board or continue to practice those correct methods and dont deserve to drive until they do.

After being an insider for 13 years as part of licensing regime, VicRoads was never in favour of 'forced learning', although they did mandate it for a while but backed down when pressure was exerted from external forces

I can't comment on other States

[Ford17]

Wonder how much correlation there is between this and the roads filling up with 4wd utes?

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

Unfortunately statistice prove you wrong, they do **** loads of things wrong, die in crashes and kill others in crashes

What do the statistics prove?

Are these the same statistics that 'prove' speed kills?

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

I stand by my comments.

[Trevor 57]

Traffic convictions

I never took you for a conspiracy theorist

[jgmdat]

Do any of the driving instructors teach keep left unless overtaking? That could eliminate a decent amount of the issues on the road.

[ToryMikey]

Could any of this be down to the absolutely horrendous state of Victorian country roads? And how things are *still* not fixed after the October 2022 flooding?

[prydey]

Originally Posted by jgmdat

Do any of the driving instructors teach keep left unless overtaking? That could eliminate a decent amount of the issues on the road.

I agree it's an issue, but rarely is there an L or P plate in sight.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by prydey

Many of these threads the topic often turns to driving standards and then to current licensing.

Well, I do my fair share of driving around as well and from what I see, is not the young kids driving like idiots or disregarding road rules etc...

90% of failure to indicate would be older people... Impatience and lack of tolerance is also largely exhibited by those more experienced.

I think the younger crowd get singled out unfairly. I don't think feature any more or less than any other age group. And it's certainly not easier to get your licence now. My old man drove to the cop shop, drove the cop around the block and got given his licence. Many of his era tell similar stories.

Come to Melbourne; you may change your tune.

[T3rminator]

Don't worry fellas. Give it another few years, and AI cameras will be able to tell if someone has no idea how to drive, and have their cars disabled. Road toll will be zero.

AI cameras can already detect fatigued, distracted and, I think, intoxicated drivers.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Don't worry fellas. Give it another few years, and AI cameras will be able to tell if someone has no idea how to drive, and have their cars disabled. Road toll will be zero.

AI cameras can already detect fatigued, distracted and, I think, intoxicated drivers.

Hahaha, go talk to truck drivers and see what they think of them, if they were introduced to everyone no one will be driving.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

Traffic convictions

VIC Magistrates also frown upon the 18-25 year old male cohort when they come through court on driving convictions.

There was a few of us going through together on driving offences, me with the highest score on the board

The guy who got done for 29 over got torn a new ******* by the magistrate, who was quite nice to me, solely because of his age falling in that 18-25 cohort, what he did was tame AF.

Road he got done on used to be 100, was recently reduced to 80km/h, he got done at 109 at around 1AM - super tame offence, he lawyered up, was dressed nice.

Magistrate tore him a new rectum, she went off her head about young men killing everyone else on the roads and speed being the biggest killer

The local drug dealer got treated way better than the kid on the 29 over in the 80 zone.

I got the rough end of the pineapple by the second magistrate when I had to get in the witness box when it came time to apply for my licence again.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Itsme

Come to Melbourne; you may change your tune.

Given statistics were mentioned earlier as a reliable metric, statistically more people over 25 die on the road than those under 25. Of course you can break it down in to age brackets and then analyse which ones might be over represented etc etc but that wasn't my point. My point is, on sheer volume, I see far more older drivers (open licence) being idiots and breaking laws than those P plate level or younger.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by jgmdat

Do any of the driving instructors teach keep left unless overtaking? That could eliminate a decent amount of the issues on the road.

In Victoria it is only a legal requirement to 'keep left when overtaking' where there is a sign advising that

However there it used to be written in the road law that vehicles had to keep as near left as possible, but that was before we went with the National Road Rules agenda back in 1999 so I am not sure now, I left that life in 2000

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

50 minutes is long test, I think they are either a 20 or 30 minute test now

Mind you, back in 1975 when I got mine at the Cowes Police Station, I did 3 right turns, the policeman (not my dad) took me to a local garage to look at a car that 3 local kids had died in the night before, then back to the Station, no reverse park, no handbrake start, no 3 point turn, just a drive to the garage and back. My dad had my licence written up for me when I got back

I always laugh (and challenge) at old people when they whinge about young people and how they get their licences. I ask them how they got theirs, funny how they shut up straight away and then smile

My point received loud and clear lol

You know you're doing well when the examiner takes you out longer than 10 mins. If its more than 20 mins, then they are trying to catch you out, according to my instructor att but then he was the barst*rd who directed me straight out onto busy Pennant Hills rd in $ydney for an hour each week.

Sort of glad he did now.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

In Victoria it is only a legal requirement to 'keep left when overtaking' where there is a sign advising that

However there it used to be written in the road law that vehicles had to keep as near left as possible, but that was before we went with the National Road Rules agenda back in 1999 so I am not sure now, I left that life in 2000

That's wrong, trev.

130 - Keeping to the left on a multi-lane road

Keeping left
When driving on any multi-lane road with a speed limit over 80km/h, you must keep out of the right lane unless:

you are overtaking or turning right, or
all lanes are congested.
If the right lane is a transit lane, this rule applies to the lane immediately to the left of the transit lane.

From the vicroads website here https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safe...rules/freeways

Altho I'm not quite sure why they have this detail under the heading 'freeways' when it applies to any multi-lane roads over 80. Plenty of roads over 80 that aren't freeway.

[Trevor 57]

I can't remember there being mention of a speed limited area when I responded to the post. I could be wrong on that point, but I doubt it