Taurus vs Falcon specs

[whales]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yes it was the one that went round corners.......


The vast majority of people on here have not even sat in let alone driven most of the vehicles they have strong opinions on so all they are doing is repeating other people's repeating of other people's made up stories.

There might even be people repeating what you say....... God help them

[Majestic]

LMAO HAHAHAHAHAH

Originally Posted by CRYHSV

I liked dressing up in a big bird outfit on every 3rd Tuesday of the month because it makes me feel sexy, you can’t be annoyed or anything else for that matter because it my opinion...

[Bossxr8]

The dynamics of RWD vehicles is inherently superior to that of FWD vehicles, the steering is pure and uncorrupted and power down is also superior, especially in wet conditions.

The most powerful FWD is have driven was a Nissan Maxima and it only had around 170 kw I think and the steering was twitching around in my hands like crazy under strong acceleration, not thrashing it either. Total rubbish. I'd hate to have driven it in the wet.

FWD might have its place but in a large vehicle thats not it. Its ok for small cars with lower torque levels where it doesn't have as much effect on the steering. In saying that though Ford have some excellent FWD cars that have been tuned to handle very well, as do the RenaultSport models.

[ToCo]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yes it was the one that went round corners.......

The comment was about handling and a Renult Megane did 8.08 on the Nürburgring Nordschleife recently which is quicker than most RWDs short of supercars.

The points I am making are:

1) Just because something is RWD does not make it handle well or quick and just because something is FWD does not make it slow.

2) People tend to bias their opinions on cars with their favorites being perfect in every way and anything they don't personally like being hopeless, just ask anyone on street commodores how good a FG2 GT is.

The vast majority of people on here have not even sat in let alone driven most of the vehicles they have strong opinions on so all they are doing is repeating other people's repeating of other people's made up stories.

1) Please point me to the post where someone stated this??

2) So you actually know this or are you "Just repeating rubbish you have read on the internet/magazine that in most cases was written by someone else who had no idea and was just repeating rubbish they read on the internet/magazine.........." /end sarcasm

[Tokyo Geoff]

In Nov last year I drove this Taurus for 2 weeks and loved it bar one thing. In the rear you couldn't get your feet under the front seats so there wasn't as much room as you would expect. In fact the interior didn't seem as roomy as my FG but nicely appointed.



But then we bumped into the couple that owned this. V6 Twin turbo AWD oh yeah that sounds awesome. I'd drive one tomorrow.

Cheers
Geoff

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The dynamics of RWD vehicles is inherently superior to that of FWD vehicles, the steering is pure and uncorrupted and power down is also superior, especially in wet conditions.

The most powerful FWD is have driven was a Nissan Maxima and it only had around 170 kw I think and the steering was twitching around in my hands like crazy under strong acceleration, not thrashing it either. Total rubbish. I'd hate to have driven it in the wet.

FWD might have its place but in a large vehicle thats not it. Its ok for small cars with lower torque levels where it doesn't have as much effect on the steering. In saying that though Ford have some excellent FWD cars that have been tuned to handle very well, as do the RenaultSport models.

what year was the maxima made? i'm sure new FWD cars have come a long way as far as driving dynamics is concerned.

you also contradict yourself regarding power + FWD.


not to mention 99% of the driving/car buying public don't drive like tools or like they are on a race track. guarantee 99% of them will never experience push or understeer, or torque steer for that matter.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by prydey

what year was the maxima made? i'm sure new FWD cars have come a long way as far as driving dynamics is concerned.

you also contradict yourself regarding power + FWD.


not to mention 99% of the driving/car buying public don't drive like tools or like they are on a race track. guarantee 99% of them will never experience push or understeer, or torque steer for that matter.

The Maxima was maybe 4 or 5 years ago, not that old. Not a prime example I know but from others opinions the Aurion is the same.

Good dynamics can show at any speed, nowhere did I mention I was racing it. Some cars with excellent dynamics just feel great to drive at any speed, others don't.

Its pretty clear a large size car with engines that make bulk torque like the Falcon are better suited to RWD.

I may have contradicted myself a little with the comment that there are some good handling FWD cars but I should have added that once the power levels get up to and over 150kw, double that when power goes over 200kw, thats where it starts corrupting the car. Thats what I meant to say.

Try to fit an engine with GT335 power and torque levels to a FWD car and see how that feels to drive.

[In Focus]

http://www.rsownersclubaust.com.au/?page_id=220



Focus RS500: 260kw/460nm and by all accounts handles well enough...

[Brazen]

I dont think anyone will ever honestly think that FWD is better than RWD from a dynamics perspective (all things being equal).

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I dont think anyone will ever honestly think that FWD is better than RWD from a dynamics perspective (all things being equal).

IMO, Falcon having less impact of FoA's sales allows buyers to embrace Ford's other products
and to a great extent restricted supply has caused headaches, I'm hoping that Ford works harder
on shortening the supply lines by whatever means to better fill customer's orders.

Falcon and Territory sales may well improve but they won't dominate like the past,
I'm hoping Figo, Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo all stand tall and start delivering the goods.

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The Maxima was maybe 4 or 5 years ago, not that old. Not a prime example I know but from others opinions the Aurion is the same.

Good dynamics can show at any speed, nowhere did I mention I was racing it. Some cars with excellent dynamics just feel great to drive at any speed, others don't.

Its pretty clear a large size car with engines that make bulk torque like the Falcon are better suited to RWD.

I may have contradicted myself a little with the comment that there are some good handling FWD cars but I should have added that once the power levels get up to and over 150kw, double that when power goes over 200kw, thats where it starts corrupting the car. Thats what I meant to say.

Try to fit an engine with GT335 power and torque levels to a FWD car and see how that feels to drive.

I agree with you about good dynamics showing at any speed. The same applies to communicative steering.

However, the Maxima and Aurion aren't exactly the cream of the crop when it comes to large FWD cars. Both are known for their lacklustre dynamics and ever-present torque steer. However, drive a Mondeo (149 kW) and you may think differently about larger front wheel drive cars. No rough as guts V6 either (some people say they would never own a FWD car, but I would personally never own a V6 car).

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I dont think anyone will ever honestly think that FWD is better than RWD from a dynamics perspective (all things being equal).

Not necessarily. I wouldn't want a RWD/AWD Focus or Mondeo. It adds weight, and I couldn't even begin to imagine what a shocker a rear wheel drive implementation of Control Blade IRS would be (oh wait).

[Nic85]

I personally bought recently a 2005 Mitsubishi 380 LX. Top of the range model, full cream leather interior, sports suspension, the works. 60,000kms for $14k. Bargain of a thing. The dynamics of the car are great. I've recently been looking back through a bunch of online tests with the car, and found a heap of technical data regarding suspension etc, and the suspension setup on these cars is quite advanced and very solid. It has a fantastic balance between ride/comfort, very Euro like - I liken it to the Lexus IS250. In a real world application, pushing too hard through a corner will induce mild understeer, then into slight oversteer - very neutral and easy to control.

It's amazing what a large FWD car is capable of with proper chassis dynamics and a good suspension setup.

I just think for 99% of the time, FWD is very capable in a large sedan, and all you guys who are afraid of it and say you will never buy a FWD Falcon, I would really encourage you to have a drive of a properly setup FWD car, not a Maxima or Aurion (I have driven a few Aurions myself - Nice ride, but woeful dynamics due to a poor chassis and suspension setup).

[Mackspower]

A totally unbiased car tester like Joshua Dowling?

Or Jeremy Clarkson?

Don't forget Toby Hagon or Jez Spinks . . . :-(

I've just made the switch from Falcon to Mondeo Hatch. Price wise I could get the best Mondeo (Titanium) or the G6 Falcon.

From a fuel economy point of view it's 8.5L/100KM (Mondeo) vs 12.8L/100KM (Falcon) - real world based on my own log books. It still have the blue oval on the steering wheel and the Red book position is 66% resale after three years (Mondeo) vs 43% (Falcon).

The two things I miss in the Falcon; the awesome off-the-line urge of the Falcon's sweet six motor and the superior turning circle (the Mondeo is awful here).

Would happily go back to Falcon once they add WAY more equipement levels and fix that resale problem. Owned many Falcons overs thirty years of driving . . . love them dearly.

[madmelon]

This has gone way off track so here's something to bring it back. I was just yesterday comparing the mass between the Falcon and the Taurus.

FG kerb mass 1710kg for XT through to about 1870kg for GT-P

Taurus kerb mass: 1818kg for base model though to 1980kg for the SHO.

That is an absolute disgrace no matter how you look at it.

Also, I've said it before and I'll say it again, FWD really has VERY LITTLE IF ANY efficiency advantage over RWD. What it does have is manufacturing simplicity and lower costs- you can just bolt the entire power train in in one go and stick the bumper on. This is a bigger reason for using FWD than all the efficiency BS.

[Road_Warrior]

This is because the current D3-based Toreass is based on an SUV platform which is inherently heavy anyway

CD4+ won't be so heavy, but yes you're right

[Cabbage]

Originally Posted by flappist

This is based on your experience driving RWD, FWD and AWD vehicles with various engine configurations in diverse environments?

Yeah a bit harsh, the kid can have an opinion without being shot down. I've driven rwd, fwd and awd with different engines, transmissions and in different environments and I agree with him. I prefer cars that are rwd or awd. Just my preference not to say fwd cars aren't comparable. Knowing this and without having driven the Taurus, if the taurus replaced the falcon, I would most likely not consider a fwd Taurus but would look at awd or rwd versions.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Nic85

I personally bought recently a 2005 Mitsubishi 380 LX. Top of the range model, full cream leather interior, sports suspension, the works. 60,000kms for $14k. Bargain of a thing. The dynamics of the car are great. I've recently been looking back through a bunch of online tests with the car, and found a heap of technical data regarding suspension etc, and the suspension setup on these cars is quite advanced and very solid. It has a fantastic balance between ride/comfort, very Euro like - I liken it to the Lexus IS250. In a real world application, pushing too hard through a corner will induce mild understeer, then into slight oversteer - very neutral and easy to control.

It's amazing what a large FWD car is capable of with proper chassis dynamics and a good suspension setup.

I just think for 99% of the time, FWD is very capable in a large sedan, and all you guys who are afraid of it and say you will never buy a FWD Falcon, I would really encourage you to have a drive of a properly setup FWD car, not a Maxima or Aurion (I have driven a few Aurions myself - Nice ride, but woeful dynamics due to a poor chassis and suspension setup).

But how much power and torque does a 380 make, about as much as a Maxima. If they tried to put as much power and torque into it as Ford get out of any of their new V8's or turbo 6's and it would turn into a mess. If Falcon went FWD then a stock V6 would be about as much as it could handle. Ford even proved that by having to stick AWD into the Ecoboost V6 versions of the Taurus. FWD couldn't handle it.

But anyway this has gone on long enough, back on topic.

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

But how much power and torque does a 380 make, about as much as a Maxima. If they tried to put as much power and torque into it as Ford get out of any of their new V8's or turbo 6's and it would turn into a mess. If Falcon went FWD then a stock V6 would be about as much as it could handle. Ford even proved that by having to stick AWD into the Ecoboost V6 versions of the Taurus. FWD couldn't handle it.

But anyway this has gone on long enough, back on topic.

No mention of power was ever made, though I do agree, the 380 wouldn't want much more power that's for sure. I personally don't see a problem with FWD as your base bread and butter seller, then AWD for your performance variations.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

But how much power and torque does a 380 make, about as much as a Maxima. If they tried to put as much power and torque into it as Ford get out of any of their new V8's or turbo 6's and it would turn into a mess. If Falcon went FWD then a stock V6 would be about as much as it could handle. Ford even proved that by having to stick AWD into the Ecoboost V6 versions of the Taurus. FWD couldn't handle it.

But anyway this has gone on long enough, back on topic.

if ford do eventually go down this path, i would assume the v8 or performance models will be based on mustang? mustang is still rwd.

[flappist]

One possible problem I see is that Falcon is positioned as an "ordinary person's car" yet the T6s and V8s are becoming far too powerful for the majority of drivers.

A G6ET would wipe the floor with a GTHO P3 in any competition even with the climate control on and the transmission in "economy" mode.

There are a lot of B and F series owners who do not realise that they have a tiger by the tail and are not capable of getting out of potential problems they can and sometimes do get themselves into.

I do not know the solution to this problem as the majority of drivers, especially performance car drivers, consider themselves above average when the truth is far from that and they get rather defensive and often aggressive when the extent of their abilities are questioned or explored.

Maybe Falcon should be toned down a bit and all of the performance cars branded FPV do create a definite line between family car and performance saloon i.e. The 20xx Falcon be FWD/AWD 4,6 & TDi with the 20xx FPV being not specifically Falcon based but RWD T6/S8 on another platform.

I am sure this idea will upset some as it means that future falcons will not be able to be made into "homebrew racecars" when they are 10 or 20 years old but surely that is better than no Falcons at all.

If you don't think and entire dynasty of Ford vehicles can be ended just go out and try to buy yourself a new Fairlane, LTD or Cortina......

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by flappist

One possible problem I see is that Falcon is positioned as an "ordinary person's car" yet the T6s and V8s are becoming far too powerful for the majority of drivers.

A G6ET would wipe the floor with a GTHO P3 in any competition even with the climate control on and the transmission in "economy" mode.

There are a lot of B and F series owners who do not realise that they have a tiger by the tail and are not capable of getting out of potential problems they can and sometimes do get themselves into.

I do not know the solution to this problem as the majority of drivers, especially performance car drivers, consider themselves above average when the truth is far from that and they get rather defensive and often aggressive when the extent of their abilities are questioned or explored.

Maybe Falcon should be toned down a bit and all of the performance cars branded FPV do create a definite line between family car and performance saloon i.e. The 20xx Falcon be FWD/AWD 4,6 & TDi with the 20xx FPV being not specifically Falcon based but RWD T6/S8 on another platform.

I am sure this idea will upset some as it means that future falcons will not be able to be made into "homebrew racecars" when they are 10 or 20 years old but surely that is better than no Falcons at all.

If you don't think and entire dynasty of Ford vehicles can be ended just go out and try to buy yourself a new Fairlane, LTD or Cortina......

You could even have a locally made Mondeo taking over family car duties, alongside the more bespoke Falcon which is focused on that performance aspect you talk about.

[OffRoadFalcon]

My opinion has only been affectly by what I have read. And there isn't much to read because not many good car testers have tested both. I have also read good things about the Taurus. I like the Taurus, but for me to buy one, I'd like it to be as good as a Falcon or better. And I'd much prefer AWD or RWD, going on what experience I have had in different cars and what I have read/watched. In what I wrote in the first place I did indicate that I was writing according to what I'd read. If some aren't happy, fine. I wrote what I know and what I reckon.

I'd love to go and try out a Taurus... see how it really is, unfortunately not many of us here really know... I do like most of the styling though, I reckon it's a nice looking car, especially the 2013 ones...I only hope now that if the Falcon isn't to be the same again, whatever comes next will be a great car.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by flappist

One possible problem I see is that Falcon is positioned as an "ordinary person's car" yet the T6s and V8s are becoming far too powerful for the majority of drivers.

A G6ET would wipe the floor with a GTHO P3 in any competition even with the climate control on and the transmission in "economy" mode.

There are a lot of B and F series owners who do not realise that they have a tiger by the tail and are not capable of getting out of potential problems they can and sometimes do get themselves into.

I do not know the solution to this problem as the majority of drivers, especially performance car drivers, consider themselves above average when the truth is far from that and they get rather defensive and often aggressive when the extent of their abilities are questioned or explored.

Maybe Falcon should be toned down a bit and all of the performance cars branded FPV do create a definite line between family car and performance saloon i.e. The 20xx Falcon be FWD/AWD 4,6 & TDi with the 20xx FPV being not specifically Falcon based but RWD T6/S8 on another platform.

I am sure this idea will upset some as it means that future falcons will not be able to be made into "homebrew racecars" when they are 10 or 20 years old but surely that is better than no Falcons at all.

If you don't think and entire dynasty of Ford vehicles can be ended just go out and try to buy yourself a new Fairlane, LTD or Cortina......

base falcons and commodores and aurions are 200kw give or take. AU falcon was 157kw. obviously the extra power has also enabled the car makers to improve economy even though weight has increased.

i wonder if there was a way to see how often the full 200kw was used, whether the percentage would even be in double figures. even if you bury your foot in to the carpet, the ecu generally steps in all in the name of driveline protection. the majority of drivers don't bury the foot into the carpet often and many rarely, therefore the large cars could quite easily get away with much less powerful engines and re calibrated software.

if a large car was released now with a 0-100 time of 9-10 seconds, it would be the laughing stock on here, but if it had useable torque from 1000rpm, it would quite comfortably fulfill nearly every persons need in a motor vehicle.

i think what you propose flappist is probably very close to how it will look in 5 - 10 years time. performance cars will be produced by smaller outfits or be a very small niche of the larger manufacturer. small capacity 4cyl turbo's and 6cyl will be the norm.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by flappist

One possible problem I see is that Falcon is positioned as an "ordinary person's car" yet the T6s and V8s are becoming far too powerful for the majority of drivers.

A G6ET would wipe the floor with a GTHO P3 in any competition even with the climate control on and the transmission in "economy" mode.

There are a lot of B and F series owners who do not realise that they have a tiger by the tail and are not capable of getting out of potential problems they can and sometimes do get themselves into.

I do not know the solution to this problem as the majority of drivers, especially performance car drivers, consider themselves above average when the truth is far from that and they get rather defensive and often aggressive when the extent of their abilities are questioned or explored.

Good post.

Maybe Falcon should be toned down a bit and all of the performance cars branded FPV do create a definite line between family car and performance saloon i.e. The 20xx Falcon be FWD/AWD 4,6 & TDi with the 20xx FPV being not specifically Falcon based but RWD T6/S8 on another platform.

I am sure this idea will upset some as it means that future falcons will not be able to be made into "homebrew racecars" when they are 10 or 20 years old but surely that is better than no Falcons at all.

IMO, Ford should be focusing more on the fuel economy side of the equation with addition of diesels and perhaps the V6 Ecoboost......
The use of corporate engines and and global resources is the only way forward for Falcon to survive

If you don't think and entire dynasty of Ford vehicles can be ended just go out and try to buy yourself a new Fairlane, LTD or Cortina......

Unless Falcon changes and adapts to the future, it will be gone...
Big changes are coming......

[Nic85]

Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but if Territory can accomodate a diesel now, is it possible Falcon can too? They're on the same platform are they not? Do they share the same front half, structure wise? Surely it can't be too hard to drop that diesel engine into the Falcon?

They would sell mullions n mullions. But seriously, with a combined fuel economy of around 7L/100km (for arguments sake) it makes a fairly bold statement. Some people said no one would buy a diesel Territory - Well, they were wrong. Diesels now account for the majority of sales. About 80% if I'm not mistaken? The same would happen with Falcon.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Nic85

Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but if Territory can accomodate a diesel now, is it possible Falcon can too? They're on the same platform are they not? Do they share the same front half, structure wise? Surely it can't be too hard to drop that diesel engine into the Falcon?

They would sell mullions n mullions. But seriously, with a combined fuel economy of around 7L/100km (for arguments sake) it makes a fairly bold statement. Some people said no one would buy a diesel Territory - Well, they were wrong. Diesels now account for the majority of sales. About 80% if I'm not mistaken? The same would happen with Falcon.

Strictly speaking, Falcon and Territory are on different platforms, they're close cousins
that share around 40% of the important parts and yes, a V6 diesel Falcon is possible
but knowing Ford, they will hold off until certain that's what buyers want and ask the
government for funding to help developing it, I suspect they will give Ecoboost I-4
every chance first as this is a much more logical and effective way of reaching buyers
at the moment without incurring the almost $3500 diesel premium...

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Strictly speaking, Falcon and Territory are on different platforms, they're close cousins
that share around 40% of the important parts and yes, a V6 diesel Falcon is possible
but knowing Ford, they will hold off until certain that's what buyers want and ask the
government for funding to help developing it, I suspect they will give Ecoboost I-4
every chance first as this is a much more logical and effective way of reaching buyers
at the moment without incurring the almost $3500 diesel premium...

That's really... strange. Speaking as someone who just bought their first diesel car, I can honestly say I don't think I'll buy another petrol powered car. The ability to cruise at 5L/100km on the highway is brilliant, and even when you're up it, the economy is still fantastic (worst I've seen in our ASX for a tank full is 6.8L/100km)

Reading through the Territory forums, the guys in there are getting 10L/100km at WORST. For a 2.3 tonne SUV, that's pretty impressive. Just imagine what would be achievable in Falcon. It never made any sense to me why local manufacturers aren't really trying to get diesel powertrains into their cars.

[nickdl]

Originally Posted by csv8

Its needed..people are getting wider!!!! Taurus Maccas Special Edition.

And at 194cm wide, we'll need an American-sized drive thru for a Taurus to fit!

[2011G6E]

The thing with Top Gear is that it's entertainment, not objective car evaluation most of the time...their main criterion for most cars is whether the you can hang the rear out in a corner, as you do every single day on the road going to work. They bitterly complain when a car has such good road manners and such a well setup chassis that it simply digs in and corners sweetly, instead of getting all loose and squirelly in the bends. I take what they say about car handling with a huge grain of salt...

The Taurus has an amazing amount of standard kit, but the comment about it being to big is probably right. We just got back from a couple of days in Rocky, and you really notice the extra size of a Falcon compared tothe average size of a car park spot nowadays...

U.S fuel economy figures have to undergo some conversions first...not only the usual one of converting from miles per gallon to liters per hundred kilometers...but if you, like me, still mostly think in miles per gallon, you have to remember the fact that a US gallon is only 3.8 liters instead of an imperial 4.545 liters...