NSW consider fines for 4 kp/h over the limit

[Bearman]

Just a matter of time before the NSW Gov't mimicked the muppets down here.

It's just easy money for the State Government. That's it. Nothing else matters. The long running campaign of misinformation that doing 63km/h in a 60 zone will cause society to crumble, anarchy to reign, baby seals to die en masse and the worlds fresh water to turn to vinegar has succeeded.

It's all about money. Your money and the State Government trying to grab it. End of story.

Can't wait until November........

[ELGT4me]

Great reply Bearman, the whole deal in a nutshell. I would be asking the not for long sitting member of my electorate, just how much of this "windfall" will be diverted back into the NSW road system. We all got burnt years ago with the petrol levy, it was only supposed to run for 3 years & all monies raised were to be returned to road constuction funding. I can't believe I fell for that one!!!

[danny2482]

In the ACT we have had mobile speed check vans for years now. it was only a matter of time before others cottoned on. There are definitely hot spots around which you come to know pretty quickly. worst is at night where you don't see the van until its too late and the big flashes go off to take a picture..

[Seduce XR6]

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...ID=69825&vf=26

I wonder if we will see people buying radar detectors once again or if they even make them to detect these types of radar?

Yes I know they are illegal

[SpoolMan]

Vic 3 klm grace is a joke, NSW get 4 klm grace lucky buggers...lol.
I have been pinned a few times in Vic all under 10 klm.
I have also written letters saying I have a safe and good driving history, if you get caught not doing more than 10klm over the speed limit and have not had a ticket in the last 2 years (from the last ticket date) they will withdraw the fine but the point still counts.
Twice I have had the the fine withdrawn by Vic Police.

[FalconXR6]

http://www.stopphotocops.com/howitworks.html

[ivorya]

Being in the scientific game, the NSW Gov and their mobile contractors had better have all their paperwork up to date with calibrations etc. or can see this costing the Gov money in court costs. Bloody Jerks.....!!!

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by ivorya

Being in the scientific game, the NSW Gov/ and their mobile contractors had better have all their paperwork up to date with calibrations etc. or can see this costing the Gov money in court costs. Bloody Jerks.....!!!

They will I am sure ... just as Vic does. And with the bonus in tax revenue, it will still be worth it for the coffers if they have to defend any action. From here it only gets worse as more and more go on the road ..... least these stand out with signs and a specific type of car. Its all about a lower limit and stealth down here!

[GT-E]

Originally Posted by Seduce XR6

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...ID=69825&vf=26

I wonder if we will see people buying radar detectors once again or if they even make them to detect these types of radar?

Yes I know they are illegal

From the small amount of research I have done on these specific cameras, RD will not detect them until you are right upon them.
In NSW they are using the Redflex Radarcam that uses a very low powered K Band. This same unit is being used in NZ and is almost undetectable with units like the BEL STI and Valantine V1.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by flappist

You have an election coming up.

Instead of whinging on an internet forum why not actually do something about it.

Contact your local member and each of your upper house members and let them know how you feel about this and how it will affect your vote.

They all want to be re-elected and will do ALMOST ANYTHING to ensure it (just look at the last few weeks in the federal sphere)

excactly right they will (like the clowns before them) be voted out from trying to introduce this crap.

crap; i mean the tenex type speed fine's (private) and less than accepted tolorance (variation)

[capri280]

they all go on about speed being the problem, well its not. Exsesive speed, yes that is, but 4ks over? get real.
the motorist is the easiest way to raise revenue without having to worry about the real problem, driver education/training or fixing the roads in the first place.
and untill they tackle the real problem we can just expect the fine process to keep costing us all more, why do you think that they put so many different speed signs on one road? makes it easier to catch unaware drivers $$$$$$$$$

[King Nothing]

Guys, there is an election coming up. Write to your local member, the roads minister and the shadow roads minister.

Roads minister: minister@borger.minister.nsw.gov.au
Shadow roads minister: oxley@parliament.nsw.gov.au

A copy of my letter is below. Feel free to copy/paste/reword, but keep it civil.

Dear Mr Borger

I am writing in regards to the story on the Sydney Morning Herald website
on the 11th of July 2010 regarding the NSW RTA considering lowering the
tolerance for speed limits to 4km/h.

Is the NSW RTA, or your office, aware of the Australian Design Rule
Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule 18/02 - Instrumentation) 2006
Legislative Instrument - F2006L02738? This regulation is applicable to all
vehicles manufactured up to June 2006, after which ADR 18/03 applies.

ADR 18/02 states the following in section 18.5.1.1.2.-

"[Speedometers] indicate the actual vehicle speed, for all speeds above 40
km/h, to an accuracy of ± 10 per cent."

How is it then, that the NSW RTA can expect a tolerance less than that the
vehicle was manufactured under? If a driver is travelling at an indicated
50 km/h, then under ADR 18/02 their vehicle may actually be travelling up
to 55 km/h and still meet requirements. Under the new tolerances reportedly
being considered by the NSW RTA and State Government, they would be
considered speeding and incur a penalty. Despite travelling at what they
understand is the speed limit.

Similarly, if a driver is doing what they believe is below the speed
limit, at an indicated 105 km/h in a 110 km/h zone, they may in fact be
travelling up to 115.5 km/hr and incur a penalty whilst the vehicle still
meets the ADR it was designed and manufactured under.

How then, is this reported proposal any more than a blatant cash grab from
NSW drivers, and how will it save lives? How can any penalties be
considered fair and reasonable when roadworthy cars will show displayed
speeds greater than the tolerance proposed?

I look forward to your reply

[motorcycles4eva]

i think it won't be long before nsw school zone's become 24 hour 40km/h everywhere zones

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by GT

The camera was in a vehicle on the other side of the road facing me and when the flash went off, I saw stars for a couple of minutes!

GT

so if you had crashed as a result you could've sued the operator?

[joolz]

So if its all about safety im sure the road toll will begin to drop the instance the 4km/h tolerance is applied. In Victoria we have had a 3km/h tolarance for almost a decade. The toll didnt really change but the revenue sure increased.....

[Bearman]

Elections are coming up here in the Nanny State.......... Roll on November!!

[GT]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

so if you had crashed as a result you could've sued the operator?

Interesting point - the flash was big enough and gave us quite a fright. It was so dark you couldn't even see the parked vehicle and the flash blinded me for some seconds. Auslandau had the same experience (as did many other people from what I can tell) so he may comment further but it was quite dangerous, in my opinion.

GT

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by joolz

The toll didnt really change but the revenue sure increased.....

The toll did change ... this year alone its up 10% with an increase of revenue from last year up some 40%.

So ...... it's working in Vic.

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

so if you had crashed as a result you could've sued the operator?

Of course you couldn't. I was speeding ..... but I suppose the collection of revenue on a dark night with a hidden flash camera facing you on a 100km/h Hwy is for a good cause. At 8 k's over I am a murdering menace to society and need to be dealt with any means possible.

[oceanwave54]

NOTE TO EVERYONE, as 'King Nothing' said, write to the Roads Minister, try to change it though, we don't want carbon copies. If the Government cops thousands of emails on the same topic, it's bound to have some sway. Show a committment to the other side if it is not considered, this should be posted on every car forum. I AM CONSTANTLY AMAZED AT WHY NO ONE STANDS UP TOGETHER THESE DAYS. Hell, bring the city to a halt if they want to take things further by ignoring the road user.

I'm emailing now.

Originally Posted by King Nothing

Guys, there is an election coming up. Write to your local member, the roads minister and the shadow roads minister.

Roads minister: minister@borger.minister.nsw.gov.au
Shadow roads minister: oxley@parliament.nsw.gov.au

A copy of my letter is below. Feel free to copy/paste/reword, but keep it civil.

Dear Mr Borger

I am writing in regards to the story on the Sydney Morning Herald website
on the 11th of July 2010 regarding the NSW RTA considering lowering the
tolerance for speed limits to 4km/h.

.....................................

How then, is this reported proposal any more than a blatant cash grab from
NSW drivers, and how will it save lives? How can any penalties be
considered fair and reasonable when roadworthy cars will show displayed
speeds greater than the tolerance proposed?

I look forward to your reply

[oceanwave54]

P.S These were my first few lines that I sent, followed by the well presented information by 'King Nothing'.

"I am writing in relation to the story on the Sydney Morning Herald website on the 11th of July 2010 regarding the NSW RTA considering lowering the tolerance for speed limits to 4km/h.

I will strongly be circulating the below information on several high profile websites to prove the incompetency of this NSW Government to understand common sense relating to automotive manufacturers' tolerances and the particularly harsh, ill-thought out tolerances under review by the RTA."

Just to maybe get them to take a little notice.

And ended it with...

"Can you expect a torrent of court cases when drivers are awoken to the information and concepts contained in this email if these ridiculous standards are brought in, in addition to the already ridiculous standards of revenue raising, that is."

[burnz]

Originally Posted by GT-E

From the small amount of research I have done on these specific cameras, RD will not detect them until you are right upon them.
In NSW they are using the Redflex Radarcam that uses a very low powered K Band. This same unit is being used in NZ and is almost undetectable with units like the BEL STI and Valantine V1.

if they are going to use K band i have an old whisler that will pick them up..
they will allways shoot someone in front of me that will aleart me to their presence.

[Geeseman]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Ummm... ADR anyone???
The state cannot over-ride Federal rules.
The law they propose can not be enforced because tollerences in speedos are not that good.

Apparently they are 10% under the law. So any stupid fines giving to give you a ticket for 4ks over the limit you can just cite this law and say that the car was doing 4ks over the limit because your law allows it to.

[GT-E]

Thought people may be interested int he outcome of this court case:

A landmark court conviction using a car's "black box" has set a New Zealand precedent and police say data kept on car computers is likely to be used more often after crashes.

In a New Zealand first, Judge Ann Gaskell has accepted evidence taken from a car's airbag computer when convicting a man of dangerous driving causing injury.

It is the first time such data has been used in a New Zealand court. It was used last year in a crash investigation in Christchurch, but was not required in court.

Alan Hohaia, 50, of Levin, was convicted in Hastings District Court yesterday after pleading not guilty to injuring Peter Gilbert-Kerr in a collision in Hawke's Bay on January 25 last year.

Hohaia lost control of his high-performance V8 HSV Holden Clubsport on a corner, crossed the centre line and collided with a Mercedes driven by Mr Gilbert-Kerr, 55.

The judge accepted evidence from William Haight, director of the San Diego Collision Safety Institute, who had analysed data from the Holden's "black box" or SDM (sensing and diagnostic module).

The data showed Hohaia's Holden had been travelling at 150kmh 2.5 seconds before the collision and 98kmh 0.5 seconds before the collision

Judge Gaskell said there was enough evidence to convict Hohaia without the data, as it was clear he had crossed the centre line at a speed well over the maximum safe speed of 58kmh to 68kmh stated by crash investigators. He rejected Hohaia's claim that he was travelling at 50kmh to 60kmh around the corner and that he did not cross the centre line.

Hohaia will be sentenced on July 7. The judge called for an emotional harm report.

Police are seeking reparation of $801 for the video conference with Mr Haight.

Hohaia was remanded on bail. He did not wish to comment yesterday.

The police national adviser for crash investigations, Inspector Mark Stables, said at present data could be retrieved from Holden VE model Commodores and some Hummer and Chrysler vehicles in New Zealand.

Data could not be retrieved from any Japanese or European model vehicles, but this could change as the technology became more widespread.

In the US, data could be retrieved from about 40 per cent of cars and the number was increasing rapidly, Mr Stables said.

"General Motors and Ford have been very proactive in making the information available in America and Canada. It's very much a developing area for the Asia Pacific area."

All vehicles with airbags were likely to collect the data, but in some models the data could not be retrieved. The technology would become more common in New Zealand.

[PHATXR8]

I read in my FG owners manual that there is some sort of "black box" type of thingo in my F6E.... does anyone know what info it records, how long the data is kept for, etc

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by danny2482

In the ACT we have had mobile speed check vans for years now. it was only a matter of time before others cottoned on. There are definitely hot spots around which you come to know pretty quickly. worst is at night where you don't see the van until its too late and the big flashes go off to take a picture..

We've had them in NSW for years as well. Not that hard to spot as there aren't many Terror-Tory owners that have roof racks ('cept in ski season)

Originally Posted by glavas

if no one went over the speed limit the government would have no money

Yes they would, they'd pick on hardened criminals like me, who drive around with the 'Long Vehicle' signs on the back of a B-Double 35cm too high!

Originally Posted by burnz

if they are going to use K band i have an old whisler that will pick them up..

Likewise, they worked well until the advent of radar detector detector's.

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by King Nothing

Guys, there is an election coming up. Write to your local member, the roads minister and the shadow roads minister.

Roads minister: minister@borger.minister.nsw.gov.au
Shadow roads minister: oxley@parliament.nsw.gov.au

A copy of my letter is below. Feel free to copy/paste/reword, but keep it civil.

Dear Mr Borger

I am writing in regards to the story on the Sydney Morning Herald website
on the 11th of July 2010 regarding the NSW RTA considering lowering the
tolerance for speed limits to 4km/h.

Is the NSW RTA, or your office, aware of the Australian Design Rule
Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule 18/02 - Instrumentation) 2006
Legislative Instrument - F2006L02738? This regulation is applicable to all
vehicles manufactured up to June 2006, after which ADR 18/03 applies.

ADR 18/02 states the following in section 18.5.1.1.2.-

"[Speedometers] indicate the actual vehicle speed, for all speeds above 40
km/h, to an accuracy of ± 10 per cent."

How is it then, that the NSW RTA can expect a tolerance less than that the
vehicle was manufactured under? If a driver is travelling at an indicated
50 km/h, then under ADR 18/02 their vehicle may actually be travelling up
to 55 km/h and still meet requirements. Under the new tolerances reportedly
being considered by the NSW RTA and State Government, they would be
considered speeding and incur a penalty. Despite travelling at what they
understand is the speed limit.

Similarly, if a driver is doing what they believe is below the speed
limit, at an indicated 105 km/h in a 110 km/h zone, they may in fact be
travelling up to 115.5 km/hr and incur a penalty whilst the vehicle still
meets the ADR it was designed and manufactured under.

How then, is this reported proposal any more than a blatant cash grab from
NSW drivers, and how will it save lives? How can any penalties be
considered fair and reasonable when roadworthy cars will show displayed
speeds greater than the tolerance proposed?

I look forward to your reply

Here's my reply, and it is by way of a question to the mods.
1) How many members does this forum have
2)How many members does this directly affect
3)How many of these members find it so easy to scream "revenue raiser" when an issue affects them directly
4)How many members will cut/copy King Nothings response and send it to the appropriate address
5)Can we get an indication of how many members actually do something about the issue in a quantitive way
6)Can that number of members who have actually voiced an opinion, other than on this forum ,be quantified?
Big ask ,I know, and final question....
After the election , how many people will be asking the same questions when nothing has changed???
Here is a perfect opportunity to actually affect some change!!
Well done King Nothing.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

Here's my reply, and it is by way of a question to the mods.
1) How many members does this forum have
2)How many members does this directly affect
3)How many of these members find it so easy to scream "revenue raiser" when an issue affects them directly
4)How many members will cut/copy King Nothings response and send it to the appropriate address
5)Can we get an indication of how many members actually do something about the issue in a quantitive way
6)Can that number of members who have actually voiced an opinion, other than on this forum ,be quantified?
Big ask ,I know, and final question....
After the election , how many people will be asking the same questions when nothing has changed???
Here is a perfect opportunity to actually affect some change!!
Well done King Nothing.

I have actually just sent an email to the mods requesting some kind of approval for this kind of thing...

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by glavas

if no one went over the speed limit the government would have no money

If no one went over the speed limit, the speed limits would continue to be reduced until someone was.

It's not like the RTA would have a problem with it.

[Lukeyson]

i got pinged saturday morning here in coffs, got a call at 6am from my then preggers wife who was in hospital overnight saying to get in there straight away as they were going to do c section asap. Headed in not (our place is 30 odd mins from the hospital) Me with my mind on other things ofcourse on the way in, went through a newly rezoned strech (70kph down to 60) at 82kph. Had a nice looking FG with these pretty red and blue lights fly up behind me (albeit it was missing a buldge), i explained to the cop it was my own fault and should have paid more attention, and let him know why i was in a rush, he was nice enough to only ping me for 10kph over. I now know that area is 60kph. lol

[Yellow_Festiva]

Alan Jones from 2GB has just interviewed the roads minister David Borger. He has questioned a lot of the stuff we are talking about in the Pub. There will be no 4km tolerance and he got a hammering re the speed cameras. Will try to post the interview.