If the Opel Commodore fails to sell can the Elizabeth plant be switched back on?

[mr smith]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

I think I'm still not over a wealthy country like ours with stuff all manufacturing , not just cars . WE ARE IDIOTS LED BY A BIGGER BUNCH OF IMBECILES IN CANBERRA ...for letting us sell out our country .

We wont be wealthy for ever..the end of manufacturing sees us living off the previous fruits of our labour that will run out.
Australia has a false economy built off the ponzi population growth.

[simon varley]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

I think I'm still not over a wealthy country like ours with stuff all manufacturing , not just cars . WE ARE IDIOTS LED BY A BIGGER BUNCH OF IMBECILES IN CANBERRA ...for letting us sell out our country .

if we weren't so strongly unionised. If we were prepared to work for less. If we were more flexible and accepting of change....

...perhaps then we'd still have a manufacturing industry. can't blame the pollies for this - it's us!

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by simon varley

if we weren't so strongly unionised. If we were prepared to work for less. If we were more flexible and accepting of change....

...perhaps then we'd still have a manufacturing industry. can't blame the pollies for this - it's us!

I thought labour costs weren’t much of a factor?

[Maka]

Originally Posted by superyob

I have it on good authority that the site will be turning out locally produced Fender Stratocasters and Fender Twin amps with awesome clean tones but packed with a killer overdrive when needed.

Ok, I'm lying...

Ahh damn, we wish lol! I'll have to settle instead for a Indonesian built Fender Strat (afaik built in the Cort factory incidentally) which by most accounts are very good SY.

cheers, Maka

[mike_nofx]

Originally Posted by simon varley

if we weren't so strongly unionised. If we were prepared to work for less. If we were more flexible and accepting of change....

...perhaps then we'd still have a manufacturing industry. can't blame the pollies for this - it's us!

Ah yes. And so what do you do, and for how much per hour do you do it for?

And what does your equivalent Chinese counterpart in China do it for? Would you be prepared to match his wage?

I do not believe the shop floor workers in ford and Holden plants were overpaid. Do you think they were?

[simon varley]

not necessarily, but there's no doubt they were paid significantly more than overseas workers.

if us as consumers want only the cheapest product, then it won't be made here will it?

[Maka]

Originally Posted by simon varley

if we weren't so strongly unionised. If we were prepared to work for less. If we were more flexible and accepting of change....

...perhaps then we'd still have a manufacturing industry. can't blame the pollies for this - it's us!

Sorry but what a load of bollocks,

cheers, Maka

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by simon varley

not necessarily, but there's no doubt they were paid significantly more than overseas workers.

if us as consumers want only the cheapest product, then it won't be made here will it?

Funny the Aussie stuff was good value for money. Plenty of cars out there that are sold cost more then an Aussie built car.

Perhaps buyers didn't really want the vehicles.

[mike_nofx]

Originally Posted by simon varley

not necessarily, but there's no doubt they were paid significantly more than overseas workers.

if us as consumers want only the cheapest product, then it won't be made here will it?

It kind of was the cheapest product. Was there a cheaper family sedan, particularly with V8 option available, imported?
Us aussies are apparently prepared to pay $60k and even more, for cars out of Korea. Or $60k for utes made in Thailand. We’re hardly saving much by buying vehicles made by the hands of third world workers, it’s just that the company fat cats are pocketing the manufacturing savings.

Look, if Australian companies could get away with paying us the same wages they pay Chinese and Indian workers they would. The only thing stopping them is unions.

[turbo4]

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

Look, if Australian companies could get away with paying us the same wages they pay Chinese and Indian workers they would. The only thing stopping them is unions.

I don't think that is necessarily true.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

It kind of was the cheapest product. Was there a cheaper family sedan, particularly with V8 option available, imported?
Us aussies are apparently prepared to pay $60k and even more, for cars out of Korea. Or $60k for utes made in Thailand. We’re hardly saving much by buying vehicles made by the hands of third world workers, it’s just that the company fat cats are pocketing the manufacturing savings.

It really was the cheapest product, and a good one at that. Try shopping for full time AWD wagon with a punchy longitudinal petrol 6 that handles well and has generous space and get back to me with the price. Similarly what price a RWD V8 large sedan, particularly one that has had bespoke tuning house treatment? It was like being at uni, joining the student guild and benefiting with $2 jugs all year. Only the cost was estimated at a coffee and the benefit was a $100K X5 for $45K. If you take the badge snob glasses off, it was a fantastic deal.

Originally Posted by roddy1960

I think I'm still not over a wealthy country like ours with stuff all manufacturing , not just cars . WE ARE IDIOTS LED BY A BIGGER BUNCH OF IMBECILES IN CANBERRA ...for letting us sell out our country .

Check out the Aussie debt clock Roddy. You can find it online. Thank goodness we came off a sound base - by 2007 Howard and Costello had reduced the national public debt to a surplus, before it began to grow again after the gfc. Its now still at a manageable level - above 90% is toast time. Of course they reduced said debt by selling off the nations assets: telecom, commonwealth bank, nations gold, etc - not ideal. But neither was Keatings debt in the first place. We must value add if we want to be a first world nation, replacing this productive ability with continued asset bubbles in housing/construction strips out the economys diversity and resilience.

Originally Posted by mr smith

We wont be wealthy for ever..the end of manufacturing sees us living off the previous fruits of our labour that will run out.
Australia has a false economy built off the ponzi population growth.

Basically this.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by simon varley

not necessarily, but there's no doubt they were paid significantly more than overseas workers.

if us as consumers want only the cheapest product, then it won't be made here will it?

Well, if we automate the production and have supportive legislation then yes, it will...

[Maka]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

We must value add if we want to be a first world nation, replacing this productive ability with continued asset bubbles in housing/construction strips out the economys diversity and resilience.

I agree with this part wholeheartedly though it wont happen any time soon until both sides in Camberra sit down & simply put, work together on all facets of a very complex jigsaw puzzle Sprintey.

cheers, Maka

[commodorenutt]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Funny the Aussie stuff was good value for money. Plenty of cars out there that are sold cost more then an Aussie built car.

Perhaps buyers didn't really want the vehicles.

Both are reasons for the demise.

Whilst it was good value for money for consumers, the profits were well below international "standards" from other plants owned by the parent companies, so it was inevitible.

And the market for those vehicles had shifted. Proof of that point is that they didn't send the manufacturing of rear-drive 6 & V8 sedans & utes offshore - they simply stopped building them.

They weren't replaced with an equivalent because the car makers know they they won't sell enough volume to generate enough profit return, at the price points needed to sell volumes.

Look at the V8 Mustang - it works as a business case priced at $65-70K, but how many BA XR8s would they have sold at that price point back in the day?

But if they can sell them for not a lot more than a Camry, and have 10x the sales, it can work - albeit at a reduced profit.

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

It kind of was the cheapest product. Was there a cheaper family sedan, particularly with V8 option available, imported?
Us aussies are apparently prepared to pay $60k and even more, for cars out of Korea. Or $60k for utes made in Thailand. We’re hardly saving much by buying vehicles made by the hands of third world workers, it’s just that the company fat cats are pocketing the manufacturing savings.

As per my response above.

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

Look, if Australian companies could get away with paying us the same wages they pay Chinese and Indian workers they would. The only thing stopping them is unions.

No, it's not the unions stopping them. The federal government sets minimum wage standards, so we'll never drop to 3rd-world levels. And it's the government that fines companies breaking the law by underpaying workers. https://www.fairwork.gov.au

The unions are responsible for driving up the wages over a period of time, until they became disjointed with the rest of the working class.

Think back to the 80s.
Factory workers and storemen lived in 3 bedroom houses on the outskirts of the metro area, drove a 2nd had car, and the annual holiday was perhaps interstate to theme parks & the like. That's all they could afford for their family, even with both adults working full time.
Someone doing an accounts payable role earnt more than a factory worker or storeman. Nurses earnt a lot more again.

Now look at 2015
Factory workers (some appearing on the bleeding heart news) and storemen are living in McMansions, with 2 near-new cars in the driveway, a boat for playtime, and go to Bali every year for a holiday.
A factory worker or storeman is now earning more than a nurse, and nearly double an accounts payable person.

Someone has to pay for that - the consumer.

But the unions will bleat on about "highly skilled workers" - really? When stuff is put together on jigs, and QA checks have been designed & implemented by engineers, there's not a huge amount of skill required to bolt things together. And lets face it - the guy walking in the door for day 1 is not a "highly skilled" worker, nor have they completed a 3-4 year degree to look after a patient, yet they can still demand those pay rates. Not really a "level" playing field, or value for the employer.

It's funny how you look at wage rates for the southern states in the USA vs the north. In Kentucky, a car-assembly line worker earns about $14/hr as the minimum wage. Now houses near the plant are only $150K, so yes it's all relative, but at the same company, the plants up north are close to $28. Minimum wages are set at each US state level, and you can even look them up on some of the state government websites. The difference is because of the unions in the north, compared to the south. This is why so much of the US car industry is no longer in Detroit.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

I thought labour costs weren’t much of a factor?

They were one of the major factors.

Dr Terry

[mike_nofx]

Originally Posted by commodorenutt

No, it's not the unions stopping them. The federal government sets minimum wage standards, so we'll never drop to 3rd-world levels. And it's the government that fines companies breaking the law by underpaying workers. https://www.fairwork.gov.au

Its like a case of which came first, the chicken or the egg. Did the government only set minimum wage standards because they had first been raised by unions who set a standard?

I'd argue the same point with safety. How many new safety standards did unions set by stopping the job and striking over unsafe work practices? You could say that safety standards are set by workcover, but how did work cover come up with these required safety standards?

Think back to the 80s.
Factory workers and storemen lived in 3 bedroom houses on the outskirts of the metro area, drove a 2nd had car, and the annual holiday was perhaps interstate to theme parks & the like. That's all they could afford for their family, even with both adults working full time.
Someone doing an accounts payable role earnt more than a factory worker or storeman. Nurses earnt a lot more again.

Now look at 2015
Factory workers (some appearing on the bleeding heart news) and storemen are living in McMansions, with 2 near-new cars in the driveway, a boat for playtime, and go to Bali every year for a holiday.
A factory worker or storeman is now earning more than a nurse, and nearly double an accounts payable person.

I'd argue that these are the same people. The factory worker from 1985 who was 20 could actually afford a 3 bedroom home and a used car, car paid for in cash. That 20 year old in 1985 is 50 in 2015 and and sold his outskirts house to pay for the mcmansion.

I'd like you to show me how a 20 year old factory worker today can afford a McMansion. Infact, show me how todays 20 year old factory worker can buy an outskirts 3 bed home, and pay cash for a used car? Most 20 year olds either drive a run down car, or have a newer car that is near on 100% financed. Forget McMansions, they'd probably be satisfied if they can buy a 2 bed apartment.

Compare factory wage in 1980 to average house price in 1980.
Now compare factory wage of today to house price of today.

Another curiosity I have is how is it that when you talk to any old car enthusiast they have a story of "Back when I was an apprentice I had a GT Falcon / XU1 Torana / Monaro etc" are they just bogus stories, or could young people back then actually afford nice muscle cars? Do todays youth have the means to buy a GTS Commodore?

My uncle bought a 2 year old HZ Monaro on apprentice wages - in cash. This I know to be a true story.

[Maka]

^^^Plus how many storeman & factory workers are fulltime now compared to back then? Then there's the casual or part time wages & loadings those workers are on these days etc..

Its complex as i said previously but tied up together along with 457 visa's & other cheap labour schemes thats come along lately.

cheers, Maka

[mick taylor]

If we never had Tariffs we could of never had mads cars in Australia in the first place, once the Tariffs were gone that spelt the end of our car industry regardless of what anyone may think.

It's the government who created our car industry here and it's is them who got rid of it and that's the facts.

The New World Order is coming and that's why we gave it up, if a product can be made cheaper that's were business will have to go, end of story.

Nations governments does not work for the people who vote them in anymore to serve such, it's a one world government who tells other governments what they can do.
That's going on now and it is going to be the future regardless of what the people my think or vote..

[zipping]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

If we never had Tariffs we could of never had mads cars in Australia in the first place, once the Tariffs were gone that spelt the end of our car industry regardless of what anyone may think.

It's the government who created our car industry here and it's is them who got rid of it and that's the facts.

Yeh had nothing to do with mobility and embracing freedom was the government that did it.

Nothing to do with the demand for the car as a product and people meeting that demand to make a profit and improving their produtcs as they went.

Tell me did they have tarriffs for the first cars imported into Australia. Making cars was totally organic my grandfather had a workshop in Melbourne putting together model T's in the 20's

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by zipping

Yeh had nothing to do with mobility and embracing freedom was the government that did it.

Nothing to do with the demand for the car as a product and people meeting that demand to make a profit and improving their produtcs as they went.

Tell me did they have tarriffs for the first cars imported into Australia. Making cars was totally organic my grandfather had a workshop in Melbourne putting together model T's in the 20's

That may well be the case, but we have had quotas, tariffs, embargos etc. call them what you want, to protect our auto industry since WW1.

Dr Terry

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by simon varley

not necessarily, but there's no doubt they were paid significantly more than overseas workers.

if us as consumers want only the cheapest product, then it won't be made here will it?

Australian auto workers made less than German, Korean and US auto workers (the legacy ones anyway, new hires make less). Difference is their factories were twice the size and had much bigger economies of scale, making cars for massively bigger markets than ours.

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

They were one of the major factors.

Dr Terry

No they weren't. Wages accounted for less than 6% of production costs. Electricity, gas, ohs and epa compliance and all the other government red tape sucked up much, much larger %'s.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Electricity, gas, ohs and epa compliance and all the other government red tape sucked up much, much larger %'s.

Yep, now we get the products on the shelves and all the CO2, dangerous working conditions and environmental cost is just shifted somewhere else, with far lesser standards, to produce the goods.

NIMBY

Edit: just check out some of the pollution articles from China, they are mind blowing.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

No they weren't. Wages accounted for less than 6% of production costs. Electricity, gas, ohs and epa compliance and all the other government red tape sucked up much, much larger %'s.

That's all smoke & mirrors & accountant's trickery.

If you get the number of Holdens built per year & divide that number by the TOTAL wages, you would get a shock.

If you follow their logic & just work the number of hours a factory worker actually 'touched' a car that figure is much lower.

The problem with their calculations is that the security guards at the front gate, the forklift drivers & the guys working in the canteen still count in production costs, even though they don't actually 'build' the car.

I do agree however that Govt. oncosts are a big problem also. I've had my own business for 40+ years & I know this only too well.

Dr Terry

[zipping]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

That may well be the case, but we have had quotas, tariffs, embargos etc. call them what you want, to protect our auto industry since WW1.

Dr Terry

Ok then we were making cars before WW1. Explain that.

The first true cars made in Australia were steam cars. The first of these steam cars, the Phaeton, was made in 1896 by Herbert Thomson and Edward Holmes. harley Tarrant made the first petrol car in 1901.

The truth is tariffs or no tariffs it was more practical to make cars here because of our obvious isolation.

My point being tariffs did not create the market.

[danzvtil]

Tarriffs,high wages,unions.......all BS excuses. We no longer had viable VOLUME!
If you are loosing 10% of your sales volume every year, where are going to be in 10 years??
In 2018, the nations best selling car will move 45k units, not enough to keep a viable factory. As for the supposed “100s of thousands” of auto workers who will be suddenly living under a bridge, that’s BS too, it’s not 1985 anymore, the auto industry and connected industries have been winding down for the last 20 years, those workers have moved onto growth industries. Look at northern Adelaide, not far from Elizabeth, companies are investing in tech, food and logistics, none of these existed 20 years ago.
As for the meth heads and Centrelink queue at Elizabeth, they’ll be there because it’s elizabeth, not because Holden have closed down. END RANT

[commodorenutt]

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

I'd argue that these are the same people. The factory worker from 1985 who was 20 could actually afford a 3 bedroom home and a used car, car paid for in cash. That 20 year old in 1985 is 50 in 2015 and and sold his outskirts house to pay for the mcmansion.

So you're saying every factory worker in 1985 was 20. Right.....
See my highlighted comments you conveniently ignored. It's acbout wage comparisons across roles, and how disjointed it became.

You know, they did have 50 year old factory workers in the 80s too, and those in their 30s, 40s & 60s too. They weren't living in McMansions on credit - they lived in housing that was within their means.

Almost every new house on a torrens-title block these days seems to have 4 bedrooms and a double garage as a minimum starting point, but that's an even bigger can of worms to do with generous credit and self-entitlement.

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

I'd like you to show me how a 20 year old factory worker today can afford a McMansion. Infact, show me how todays 20 year old factory worker can buy an outskirts 3 bed home, and pay cash for a used car? Most 20 year olds either drive a run down car, or have a newer car that is near on 100% financed. Forget McMansions, they'd probably be satisfied if they can buy a 2 bed apartment.

Where TF do you come from with this 20 year olds crap when I never mentioned 20 year olds at all?? Did you ever look at a vehicle production line in Australia? If you had, then you'd know you probably had a higher chance of winning lotto, as most of the workers were way, way older than 20. Late 20s at the youngest, and many were 40 & 50 years old.

The actual person I'm using as the bleating example was featured on the news, complaining about Holden closing, and losing his job. They went onto say how his wife only worked part time, and couldn't support their family when he finishes up. When the camera panned out to show the house, cars, and boat, I had no sympathy - this was a 40 odd year old couple with kids, living on credit, beyond their means.

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

Another curiosity I have is how is it that when you talk to any old car enthusiast they have a story of "Back when I was an apprentice I had a GT Falcon / XU1 Torana / Monaro etc" are they just bogus stories, or could young people back then actually afford nice muscle cars? Do todays youth have the means to buy a GTS Commodore?

Anyone who was around then will tell you this is utter bull****. Insurance companies wouldn't let young people finance performance cars, and few had the "cash" to buy them outright.

Ask honest people who were born 1945-1955 what their first car was - 99% of them would be 2nd hand basic transportation, and you'll be very lucky to find one or 2 V8s out of 20+ people.

Very, very few had the means to finance a performance car (or insure it).
But the media only features those stories about the young bloke who buys a GTHO because it's a sensationalist story, then all of a sudden everyone assumes it's the same story across the board.

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

My uncle bought a 2 year old HZ Monaro on apprentice wages - in cash. This I know to be a true story.

I know a 3rd year who bought a $32K Walky in 1991 - in cash. Lived at home with his parents, saved every dollar, and never went out. It can be done, but you don't have a life.
Everyone else at the time was driving Geminis, Escorts, XBs, and the odd early Commodore or XD. They were what was affordable to the regular 19-20 year olds in the day.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by zipping

Ok then we were making cars before WW1. Explain that.

The first true cars made in Australia were steam cars. The first of these steam cars, the Phaeton, was made in 1896 by Herbert Thomson and Edward Holmes. harley Tarrant made the first petrol car in 1901.

The truth is tariffs or no tariffs it was more practical to make cars here because of our obvious isolation.

My point being tariffs did not create the market.

Tariffs didn't create the market, demand created the market. Tariffs ensured that at least the bodies were built here, otherwise we would just imported fully built cars from day 1 to today.

Car building in Australia prior to WW1 was virtually a cottage industry, each car being hand made most often built on an imported chassis. Proper assembly began with the likes of Holden Motor Body Builders & TJ Richards (which became Chrysler). I think Holden built their first body in 1917 & Richards around 1912.

Dr Terry

[mike_nofx]

Originally Posted by commodorenutt

So you're saying every factory worker in 1985 was 20. Right.....
See my highlighted comments you conveniently ignored. It's acbout wage comparisons across roles, and how disjointed it became.

You know, they did have 50 year old factory workers in the 80s too, and those in their 30s, 40s & 60s too. They weren't living in McMansions on credit - they lived in housing that was within their means.

I purposely chose the age of 20 as it means that the person has only worked within that decade, and the real estate they would be looking at buying is within that same decade. What I mean is, a 20 year old in 1985 for example has only worked in the 80's and is only looking for real estate prices in the 80's.

If you want to consider a 60 year old factory worker today in 2018, he has worked through the 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's and 10's and has had access to the wages of each decade, and options to buy a house in any of those decades too. Similarly, a 60 year old in 1985 worked through the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's and had options of real estate when it cost mere pounds to buy.

a 20 year old today is on todays wages and must face todays real estate.

Almost every new house on a torrens-title block these days seems to have 4 bedrooms and a double garage as a minimum starting point, but that's an even bigger can of worms to do with generous credit and self-entitlement.

Have you noticed the houses are getting bigger yet the land is getting smaller? The majority value of real estate is in the land, not the bricks you put on top of it. When blocks were once a quarter acre block, now new suburbs have blocks of 350m2. You are buying 1/3 the land size.

As for the mansions put on top of them? Well go price new homes to be built. Theres not a huge amount to be saved by going a smaller single level home over a larger 2 story one.

Where TF do you come from with this 20 year olds crap when I never mentioned 20 year olds at all?? Did you ever look at a vehicle production line in Australia? If you had, then you'd know you probably had a higher chance of winning lotto, as most of the workers were way, way older than 20. Late 20s at the youngest, and many were 40 & 50 years old.

The actual person I'm using as the bleating example was featured on the news, complaining about Holden closing, and losing his job. They went onto say how his wife only worked part time, and couldn't support their family when he finishes up. When the camera panned out to show the house, cars, and boat, I had no sympathy - this was a 40 odd year old couple with kids, living on credit, beyond their means.

See both of my points above.

There were factories and industries other than Car Manufacture.

But ok, the guy has a nice home presumably near the factory in Elizabeth which is where he worked? From all I hear about Elizabeth, it is a completely undesirable place to live. So best house in the worst suburb?

Anyone who was around then will tell you this is utter bull****. Insurance companies wouldn't let young people finance performance cars, and few had the "cash" to buy them outright.

Ask honest people who were born 1945-1955 what their first car was - 99% of them would be 2nd hand basic transportation, and you'll be very lucky to find one or 2 V8s out of 20+ people.

Very, very few had the means to finance a performance car (or insure it).
But the media only features those stories about the young bloke who buys a GTHO because it's a sensationalist story, then all of a sudden everyone assumes it's the same story across the board.


I know a 3rd year who bought a $32K Walky in 1991 - in cash. Lived at home with his parents, saved every dollar, and never went out. It can be done, but you don't have a life.
Everyone else at the time was driving Geminis, Escorts, XBs, and the odd early Commodore or XD. They were what was affordable to the regular 19-20 year olds in the day

Hard to comment on this since I didn't live through this era, other than knowing my father had many V8's as a younger man. As did my uncles.

But a quick comparison:
HJ GTS Monaro new price $6,500 when the average wage was $7,600.

2017 HSV GTS new $100,000ish? when the average wage is under $75,000.

In that same 40 year period - Wages increased by ten times. Real estate increased by THIRTY times.



As for your convenient example of comparing a factory worker to a Nurse. Its well known that nurses are grossly underpaid.

[Maka]

Originally Posted by danzvtil

Tarriffs,high wages,unions.......all BS excuses. We no longer had viable VOLUME!

But successful Australian companies export to the world right?

We are whinging about the demise of the Falcon & Commodore which were orphan cars because..

If the full range of those two were exported around the globe in their own *niche & if they were wholly owned by Australian corporate entities, they would be alive today imo. Its all ifs & buts now dohh..

*This is the all important bit.

cheers, Maka

[Blue Roo]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

If we never had Tariffs we could of never had mads cars in Australia in the first place, once the Tariffs were gone that spelt the end of our car industry regardless of what anyone may think.

It's the government who created our car industry here and it's is them who got rid of it and that's the facts.

The New World Order is coming and that's why we gave it up, if a product can be made cheaper that's were business will have to go, end of story.

Nations governments does not work for the people who vote them in anymore to serve such, it's a one world government who tells other governments what they can do.
That's going on now and it is going to be the future regardless of what the people my think or vote..