VFACTS November 2014

[LoudPipes]

Originally Posted by happyrock

63 manufacturers to sell 1.1 million vehicles per year. does not make economic sense. America has just 30 manufacturers to sell 16 million vehicles per year. we need a rationalisation of manufacturers selling in Australia so that the motor vehicle industry and all supporting business may be able to grow and prosper rather than being marginal. The new car franchise as we know it in Australia is unsustainable in its current state and if left to continue we will see many more dealers close than the few we have witnessed in the previous month.

I agree with what you are saying from a local manufacturing point.
But if the import businesses are unsustainable then why are they still in the market?
Common sense business practice says if they are making a loss they would be the first to pull out.
It’s not like they have to be here, it makes no different to their success in other nations.

[buggerlugs]

Originally Posted by happyrock

63 manufacturers to sell 1.1 million vehicles per year. does not make economic sense. America has just 30 manufacturers to sell 16 million vehicles per year. we need a rationalisation of manufacturers selling in Australia so that the motor vehicle industry and all supporting business may be able to grow and prosper rather than being marginal. The new car franchise as we know it in Australia is unsustainable in its current state and if left to continue we will see many more dealers close than the few we have witnessed in the previous month.

Welcome aboard Happyrock You may not last long on here thou, as you speak common sense

[happyrock]

the manufacturers in an effort to maintain their volumes have been forcing the margins down at dealer level. this leaves the dealer with no option but to sell the vehicle at the reduced margin to stay competitive with both his competitors pricing as well as advertised manufacturers price. The end result is good for the retail consumer as it allows them to buy the latest model vehicle with all the advanced safety features and creature comforts at a price that is probably cheaper than what the same vehicle was selling for several years earlier. The Australian new vehicle market has been around the one million mark for several years now and no manufacturer wants their slice of the available pie to be any less than it was last year. This leads to further price pressures at dealer level so that the manufacturers can meet their own internal volume targets at the expense of the dealers profitability.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

Welcome aboard Happyrock You may not last long on here thou, as you speak common sense

Whaaaat. I guess now that theres two of you with wild perceptions, the next step is to form a political party. In case you havent noticed, we live a capitalist society. If a car manufacturer wants to come to Australia and sell their cars cheaper than the competitor, then its great for the economy and even greater for the consumer. 1 million cars being sold thru so many dealers aint gonna change, its just that every so often a manufacturer who is selling cars that people dont want, will close a few dealers, but those that are selling more will tend to open more dealers (and alot of the times, they just change the signage over from one manufacturer to the other).

Manufacturers have every incentive to see their dealers thrive, as they are the customers main point of contact with the Manufacturer. They may every so often put pressure on badly performing ones, but thats just the nature of the capitalist beast. The arguement defeats itself anyhow, in that I beat you cant name a manufacturer that is in the top 10 or 20 in any country in the world, without a dealer network.

[Falcon_Crazy]

top Selling Ford is the Australian designed and engineered Ranger - only 4k behind Dunnydore.

Cant wait for Everest to launch and revised Ranga....

[arronm]

It's the wagon that boosts the commodores sales. Ford has no similar product

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Whaaaat. I guess now that theres two of you with wild perceptions, the next step is to form a political party. In case you havent noticed, we live a capitalist society. If a car manufacturer wants to come to Australia and sell their cars cheaper than the competitor, then its great for the economy and even greater for the consumer. 1 million cars being sold thru so many dealers aint gonna change, its just that every so often a manufacturer who is selling cars that people dont want, will close a few dealers, but those that are selling more will tend to open more dealers (and alot of the times, they just change the signage over from one manufacturer to the other).

Manufacturers have every incentive to see their dealers thrive, as they are the customers main point of contact with the Manufacturer. They may every so often put pressure on badly performing ones, but thats just the nature of the capitalist beast. The arguement defeats itself anyhow, in that I beat you cant name a manufacturer that is in the top 10 or 20 in any country in the world, without a dealer network.

The counterpoint to your argument is that every year since Ford Australia was founded, thanks to competition, Fords need for many customer contact points and the never ending needs of the capitalist beast, Ford dealers have gotten better and better, to the point now of near perfection.

Presumably some have closed recently as they have as entities evolved beyond our plain of existence.

[Giant Cranium]

Originally Posted by Gadgetman

And i suppose in the coming years, the Holden offerings will remain the same will they? Do some of us on this forum know the deepest secrets of Holden and Ford's product planning department? Get a grip please!

going by recent trends i.e. the last ten years, has holden had a market leading car besides the commodore? safe to bet that the trend will continue.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by Giant Cranium

going by recent trends i.e. the last ten years, has holden had a market leading car besides the commodore? safe to bet that the trend will continue.

For years Ford and Holden fans argued who would be the best in sales and finish in the top three. Now Ford and Holden fans argue who will be the most irrelevant to the Australian car market. As in mostly irrelevant or very irrelevant.

Apparently we can't all agree no matter which way both companies are heading. Seems some fans liked to argue on the way up the sales chart and now want to argue on the way down.

[happyrock]

BOBTHEBILDA, you are absolutely correct. No manufacturer can survive in a capitalist society with out its functional dealer network. My point is that Australia is over-represented by manufacturers in relation to our population. By the manufacturer driving down dealer margins to such an extent that they have over recent years, we will continue to see dealership closures as the return on investment does not cover operating costs. My apologies if this is off the current topic.

[LoudPipes]

It won’t affect the Euros.
Their prices here and the Dealer’s new car charges treat Aussies as a joke.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Bluey-GT

Without knowing the margins - its difficult to call that one
Remember that GM spent a lot less than Ford did locally in having to develop local engines for their 6 and 8 - they basically used crate engines didnt they ?

There was also a lot of money put into the VF so that need to be recouped.
Also they will be making more commos in pant as well as Cruze....which has really died in the ***.

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by happyrock

the manufacturers in an effort to maintain their volumes have been forcing the margins down at dealer level. this leaves the dealer with no option but to sell the vehicle at the reduced margin to stay competitive with both his competitors pricing as well as advertised manufacturers price. The end result is good for the retail consumer as it allows them to buy the latest model vehicle with all the advanced safety features and creature comforts at a price that is probably cheaper than what the same vehicle was selling for several years earlier. The Australian new vehicle market has been around the one million mark for several years now and no manufacturer wants their slice of the available pie to be any less than it was last year. This leads to further price pressures at dealer level so that the manufacturers can meet their own internal volume targets at the expense of the dealers profitability.

Welcome Happyrock, the other major change to car dealers is what they actually sell, years ago they sold a car, made a margin and paid the bills. Today they make minimal margin on the sale, relying on manufacturer rebates, but also sell Finance, Insurance, Spares and servicing. The sale of the motor vehicle is almost incidental to the rest of where they make money.
Further to the reduced margins, the actual cost of running the business has skyrocketed, so in order to survive they must become car supermarkets, pumping out as many sales as possible. Its the same reason why big box Masters and Bunnings stores work when all the little old hardwares have fallen away, the car selling industry is the same.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Bluey-GT

Without knowing the margins - its difficult to call that one
Remember that GM spent a lot less than Ford did locally in having to develop local engines for their 6 and 8 - they basically used crate engines didnt they ?

Holden spent I think about $500 million on VF, Ford only spent $103 mil and half was from the government, so in theory Holden spent 10 times more than Ford did, and they aren't selling 10 times as many Commo's.

[arronm]

Yeh well it definitely isn't 10 times better

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Holden spent I think about $500 million on VF, Ford only spent $103 mil and half was from the government, so in theory Holden spent 10 times more than Ford did, and they aren't selling 10 times as many Commo's.

No, but they are selling. And selling is the operative word. Not to mention the revenue stream from parts and after sales service from a much bigger number of cars.

If ford had spent the coin and the shoe was on the other foot with falcon selling 2500 units per month and commodore only 400 odd, we'd all be ****ing ourselves laughing and be real smug.
I don't particularly like the commodore , but I applaud what holden have been able to do with it. Top 5 in a tuff market is commendable. It has continued to do this month after month after month. Supposedly better cars from ford with better economy and a larger demographic and arguably better margins ( focus / fiesta ) didn't even come close to commodore. Why ? Methinks its becoming clear its a ford stigma of sorts. I dunno.....

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Bluey-GT

No, but they are selling. And selling is the operative word. Not to mention the revenue stream from parts and after sales service from a much bigger number of cars.

If ford had spent the coin and the shoe was on the other foot with falcon selling 2500 units per month and commodore only 400 odd, we'd all be ****ing ourselves laughing and be real smug.
I don't particularly like the commodore , but I applaud what holden have been able to do with it. Top 5 in a tuff market is commendable. It has continued to do this month after month after month. Supposedly better cars from ford with better economy and a larger demographic and arguably better margins ( focus / fiesta ) didn't even come close to commodore. Why ? Methinks its becoming clear its a ford stigma of sorts. I dunno.....

Too bad Holden were estimating sales would be over 3500 a month for VF. Talk it up as much as you want but in pure numbers it's a failure, and it will continue to drop month to month. It just hasn't taken off the way they planned it too when they started the program. Not the cars fault, just the markets. As others have said it's all downhill from here, it's just 2 years behind where the Falcon is.

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by Bluey-GT

If ford had spent the coin and the shoe was on the other foot with falcon selling 2500 units per month and commodore only 400 odd, we'd all be ****ing ourselves laughing and be real smug.

No we wouldn't, because (both) factories would still be closing down.

2500 sales a month still isn't enough to keep any auto manufacturer in Oz.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by Bluey-GT

Without knowing the margins - its difficult to call that one
Remember that GM spent a lot less than Ford did locally in having to develop local engines for their 6 and 8 - they basically used crate engines didnt they ?

2004 VZ SS was $50990 - 2014 VF SS $41990

I don't reckon their margins are super. Add to that the dollar losing 20% against the greenback adding cost into to engine supply, and they just cannot be making money on them.

The only reason both companies are still here is it would cost too much to close earlier/government handouts have to be honoured

It hurts but that is the truth. If they are not selling 10,000 a month minimum they are going out of business. They can keep going now because they do not have to invest in a new model.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by tempted

Poor comparison. VZ SS was equivalent spec to an SSV.

Correct. What was the price of the VZ CV8...which is what an SS is?

[deadfish2]

Cv8 was a Monaro model... Only other ss model in the vz range was a last run ssz to clear them out as the ve was coming in....

There was a sv8 which was the poor mans v8, which would be closest to a ve/vf ss

[borough]

Originally Posted by deadfish2

Cv8 was a Monaro model... Only other ss model in the vz range was a last run ssz to clear them out as the ve was coming in....

There was a sv8 which was the poor mans v8, which would be closest to a ve/vf ss

According to redbook the price of a 2004 VZ SV8 was $41990, the same price as a SS today. Using the RBA inflation calculator based upon the 2004 VZ SV8 price the SS would cost $53,786.70.

[russellw]

The first set of graphical stats is uploaded now in the Tech Portal.

Cheers
Russ

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

ASX and IX35 out of nowhere.
Did some fleet buy up big or something?

Originally Posted by danzvtil

I see ASXs on the road EVERYWHERE, they must be the in thing right now. I must say the latest facelift with LED DRLs and machined alloys always makes me look twice.

Originally Posted by Struggo

Couldn't give me one, they have to be one of the worst cars I have driven. Pure rubbish.

The ASX is very keenly priced at the moment. Base model 2WD petrol can be had for around $24k.

If you want to top spec 4WD Diesel XLS these can be had for $33k.

The ix35 starts a little dearer at around $25k for the base model. I think they have also been throwing in a $1000 gift card to sweeten the deal.

The Kia Sportage is the most expensive of the bunch, starting at around $26k for the base model. If you want 4WD diesel mid spec model you are looking at mid to high 30's.

The ASX also has quite a low consumption figure - MUCH lower than Sportage and ix35.

I hired a petrol ASX and agree that it was a slow, thirsty slug, the diesel XLS is outstanding value and would probably perform very well with its large capacity engine that isn't as high strung as the Koreans.

It also has better ground clearance and a more selectable AWD system.

Only issue I can see with the ASX is that it is a dated design and is probably due for an update some time next year.

[kevino]

Police in Qld buy IX35,s.
Maybe some fleet orders skewed the numbers.
I would not touch an IX35 or an ASX - cant see the point -high riding and heavier and slower and thirstier than a hatch, my view.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by kevino

Police in Qld buy IX35,s.
Maybe some fleet orders skewed the numbers.
I would not touch an IX35 or an ASX - cant see the point -high riding and heavier and slower and thirstier than a hatch, my view.

But they are not a hatch. Both have an optional AWD system combined with the extra ground clearance allows them to go a little further off road than your standard FWD hatch.

Think of them as a compromise vehicle...

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

But they are not a hatch. Both have an optional AWD system combined with the extra ground clearance allows them to go a little further off road than your standard FWD hatch.

Think of them as a compromise vehicle...

True. But many buyers are now not bothering with the AWD models, so most are just buying a jacked up hatch.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

True. But many buyers are now not bothering with the AWD models, so most are just buying a jacked up hatch.

We can't really tell, unless the info goes into further detail as to what specific model is being sold.

I got a test drive for the Diesel 4WD booked this Sat actually... I'm happy to fork out more for the diesel and the 4WD hardware, I wouldn't look at one if it were only fwd.

See what happens. If they allow me to twist their arm enough and give me a good trade it will be the second new Mitsubishi in our garage - I had a very good buying, after sales and warranty experience when buying a new Mirage for the better half last year.

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by happyrock

BOBTHEBILDA, you are absolutely correct. No manufacturer can survive in a capitalist society with out its functional dealer network. My point is that Australia is over-represented by manufacturers in relation to our population. By the manufacturer driving down dealer margins to such an extent that they have over recent years, we will continue to see dealership closures as the return on investment does not cover operating costs. My apologies if this is off the current topic.

Here is another thing. Manufacturers don't drive down dealer margins, customers who can save money by car shopping next door do.
As the car retail industry knows, advertising even 10 or 20 bucks (im talking DOLLARS not thousands) over a hot price point will mean you sell next to nothing.

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by Bluey-GT

No, but they are selling. And selling is the operative word. Not to mention the revenue stream from parts and after sales service from a much bigger number of cars.

If ford had spent the coin and the shoe was on the other foot with falcon selling 2500 units per month and commodore only 400 odd, we'd all be ****ing ourselves laughing and be real smug.
I don't particularly like the commodore , but I applaud what holden have been able to do with it. Top 5 in a tuff market is commendable. It has continued to do this month after month after month. Supposedly better cars from ford with better economy and a larger demographic and arguably better margins ( focus / fiesta ) didn't even come close to commodore. Why ? Methinks its becoming clear its a ford stigma of sorts. I dunno.....

while yes what Holden has done with the VF is impressive with all its gizmos (who the hell needs park assist thou??) Its still losing money as it isn't selling enough to make a profit. as many have said its nearly dead just like Falcon. Holden would be losing heaps of money at the moment on the Commodore, Ford however aren't losing as much, they are still losing money on every Falcon and Territory sold but it wouldn't be anywhere near what Holden has lost on in Commodore. I honestly think even the Holden badge will disappear in a few years time the way things are going