Was it 149km/h or 76km/h? Biker's barrister father wins $60,000 battle to beat speed - Page 2

flappist · 27-10-2011, 12:00 PM

Conversely I have won one of these without going to court which resulted in cancellation of the TON as well as suspension of the officer's qualification until he repeated all the training.

As far as the "don't fight it" mentality, that is what they want you to do, just accept that they are always right and the law is always just.

Laws are made by politicians but perverted by bureaucrats in all levels of government and THEY are the ones who get so upset at the general population not doing what THEY tell them to. Of course when a law or its execution is found to be incorrect THEY are also the ones who will immediately blame everyone else, after all they are just following orders.....

Corzza · 27-10-2011, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr smith

29 year old spoilt rich kid gets off because he has a barrister dad with money and its a win?
Get real, this bloke will continue to be a menace and maybe even kill someone. Gee that would be a win.

Mate have you read the article?

He won because there were so many inconsistencies no one could prove he was doing the speeds claimed. It seems fair enough to me. If it can’t be proven officially then who is to say he was doing the speeds claimed.

Angeldust · 27-10-2011, 02:52 PM

Quote:

I've said it before...speed camera, LIDAR, and radar guns are apparently the only scientific measuring instrument in the world of any sort that doesn't have a known "plus or minus" error that the operator must take into consideration when doing the measurement. They are supposedly 100% accurate, at all times, in all conditions, in all measuring situations...a premise that any scientist would laugh at. If you told any other expert to measure something, he would want to take several measurements to get a good average, but before that he would want to ensure a stable measuring platform, known environmental surroundings to allow them tio be taken into consideration, and make sure all other possible variables are known and taken into account for a reasonably accurate reading.
Ask a scientist to measure something, and he won't just chuck open a window, glance at the sighting part of the measuring apparatus for a second or two, and gravely pronounce a measurement that is absolute and inargueable and not to be questioned at all in the slightest.

Radar and LIDAR guns though, can apparently do this...they are truly amazing devices...

this... im a scientist and also work with instruments that take measurements.
i totally agree with your statement.

mr smith · 27-10-2011, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corzza

Mate have you read the article?

He won because there were so many inconsistencies no one could prove he was doing the speeds claimed. It seems fair enough to me. If it can’t be proven officially then who is to say he was doing the speeds claimed.

You really think a 29 yr old with a 1000cc bike is sticking to the speed limits?It seems that if your a clown you can use some technicality to get off. I and most people I know stick to the limits and have never had issues with mistaken speed readings.
You idoiots on here who think its cool to speed and have some sort of agender on bagging out speed limits need to spend a night in the trauma ward in any large city hospital. You will see injuries that you could never imagine, and it comes from people being [fools] and more often than not putting the foot down when in is not required. Maybe when one of yours is a victim you will wake up.
If you can afford to play on the track with the big boys then give it up because you look like an idiot [fooling] around on the road.

prydey · 27-10-2011, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr smith

I and most people I know stick to the limits and have never had issues with mistaken speed readings.

so that means it doesn't happen then? you don't know of any cases so therefore there is none??

yeah, i can see how that logic works.

Supercharged · 27-10-2011, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matty4

All those who peddle the same old line of "Obey the law and you'll be fine" should also be peddling that same line to those who enforce it.

Great win BTW!!!!

Got that right, here is a link to an off duty police officer that blew .232 http://www.police.tas.gov.au/news/po...ficer-charged/

Aussie XB12SS · 27-10-2011, 06:54 PM

Equipment was used incorrectly - end of story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr smith

You really think a 29 yr old with a 1000cc bike is sticking to the speed limits?It seems that if your a clown you can use some technicality to get off..

Naughty bike rider, yep always the bikers fault.
Been riding for 20 years on bikes over 1000cc & spend most of the time watching for idiot cage drivers & cameras in case I'm doing 4 k's over the speed limit.

& yes mate I've been in the trauma unit with my brother who was on a bike & two weeks later we buried him.

Bossxr8 · 27-10-2011, 08:40 PM

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty.

Doesn't seem to apply to speeding fines where it is guilty until proven innocent.

The whole systems a joke.

gtxb67 · 27-10-2011, 08:49 PM

i wonder if the "equipment was used incorrectly" line would be rehashed by anyone here, if they had their car stolen (or worse) and the criminal responsible was let off on a technicality

EDManual · 27-10-2011, 09:02 PM

They are not always right, I have been done three times with wrong speeds, and after fighting one real hard found I have no chance and havnt even bothered with the 2 other ones. Usually the courts take the side of the govt to save problems with revenue raising activities.

Example of some I havnt bothered about : was done doing 110 (3 points) (after they took off 2 for error) in a 100 zone, I was doing 108 by a few gps with cruise control. And have been past many many cops without a problem. This one however said i was speeding in the 3 point range, and not only that but I was going 115 before they locked on me, when I didnt deviate one bit from my 108. Was a dead flat road and had cruise control on.
They showed me that their equipment had been calibrated days before. Obviously some error. What can you do though!

Another time i got done doing 122 in a 110 zone and was doing more like 115. Was absolutley no way it could be possible. But what can you do!

They only bother to pull you over for a 3 pointer I find, and I ALWAYS drive just under that. Now I have to make my money back off the theives in some way....

SteveJH · 27-10-2011, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EDManual

They are not always right, I have been done three times with wrong speeds, and after fighting one real hard found I have no chance and havnt even bothered with the 2 other ones. Usually the courts take the side of the govt to save problems with revenue raising activities.

Example of some I havnt bothered about : was done doing 110 (3 points) (after they took off 2 for error) in a 100 zone, I was doing 108 by a few gps with cruise control. And have been past many many cops without a problem. This one however said i was speeding in the 3 point range, and not only that but I was going 115 before they locked on me, when I didnt deviate one bit from my 108. Was a dead flat road and had cruise control on.
They showed me that their equipment had been calibrated days before. Obviously some error. What can you do though!

Another time i got done doing 122 in a 110 zone and was doing more like 115. Was absolutley no way it could be possible. But what can you do!

They only bother to pull you over for a 3 pointer I find, and I ALWAYS drive just under that. Now I have to make my money back off the theives in some way....

Sounds like they are just making up for the times they don't pull you over for doing <10km/h over.

I'm sure you'll get over it.

Corzza · 27-10-2011, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr smith

You really think a 29 yr old with a 1000cc bike is sticking to the speed limits?It seems that if your a clown you can use some technicality to get off. I and most people I know stick to the limits and have never had issues with mistaken speed readings.
You idoiots on here who think its cool to speed and have some sort of agender on bagging out speed limits need to spend a night in the trauma ward in any large city hospital. You will see injuries that you could never imagine, and it comes from people being [fools] and more often than not putting the foot down when in is not required. Maybe when one of yours is a victim you will wake up.
If you can afford to play on the track with the big boys then give it up because you look like an idiot [fooling] around on the road.

I don’t know he may very well have been. If he was a 16years old or a 80year old who is to say he was or wasn’t?! If the equipment used to measure his speed was inaccurate then how the heck can they prove it right?! Its for the cop to prove he was doing 1km over the limit or 80km over.The courts proved them wrong. No one is questioning your ability to judge speed. So im not sure who you are referring the rest of your post to.

EDManual · 27-10-2011, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Sounds like they are just making up for the times they don't pull you over for doing <10km/h over.

I'm sure you'll get over it.

But the radar is meant to be accurate to +/- 2km/h. They are not all this accurate. There should not be any variance above this. Can mean the difference between 3 point or 1 point, or worse, lose your licence or not.

ozpacman · 27-10-2011, 10:25 PM

I don't know how the LIDAR equipment is set up in NSW, however I know that the units used by Qld Police will not give a speed readout until they have been locked onto the subject vehicle for the required time frame.

The LIDAR works by measuring the time that it takes for the light pulses to travel from the unit to the subject vehicle and then return to the unit. Obviously as the vehicle drawers closer the time decreases and this is what calculates the closing speed of the vehicle.

I'm only a copper and definitely not a scientist, but given that the speed of light is a constant, I can't see how the unit would 'read wrong'.

Maybe operator error.

Cheers,

Russ

EDManual · 27-10-2011, 10:31 PM

Ozpacman : how does the radar and laser go with cars coming round a corner? I guess if they are not straight on to the cop car or hand held unit the unit would read a percentage less from straight on 100% speed, for example, at a 5 degree angle, would read 5degree/90degree= 5.55% less than 100% and so on? So the driver doing 105.55km/h would read 100 at an angle of 5 degrees from straight on.

ozpacman · 27-10-2011, 10:45 PM

That's right ED. It's referred to as the cosign angle. Obviously it favours the subject vehicle as you say. It might be travelling at 100kph but because of it's direction of travel it will be actually closing toward the LIDAR unit at a lesser speed. As soon as it starts travelling straight towards the LIDAR the measured speed will become much closer.

I've always found the LIDAR a pretty accurate device as it relies on light pulses and not a doppler signal. The way ours are set up they just come up with an error code unless you're getting the light beam onto the subject vehicle successfully

LIDAR is just an acronym for Light Infrared Detection And Ranging.

Hope I made sense!

Russ

fmc351 · 28-10-2011, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty.

Doesn't seem to apply to speeding fines where it is guilty until proven innocent.

The whole systems a joke.

Pretty much anything with a fine is that way. If youre not guilty, the system assumes you will contest it and that is your chance to make them prove your guilt. After police lead their evidence, you will have to prove your innocence. A murder trial is not much different. The system makes allegations, leads evidence and your lawyer has to explain it away or provide alternative explanations for the evidence. At the end, a decision is made on whether youre guilty or innocent.

However, with a traffic offence, since youre not going to jail, a fine is issued in order to free up the courts and yourself to deal with other matters. Imagine if you HAD to go to court for every ticket you received. And you can contest the fine which does maintain your right to the assumption of innocence. When you pay the fine, you just plead guilty. And that goes for every person who drives, the fine would all of a sudden be much larger (lost pay for that day too, plus the fine and court costs) and the cost to society in other court time would be astronomical. I mean the system right now gives you a choice which avoids the costs of a legal battle, but still entitles you to choose the court system if you want to contest it.

The problem is the cost, but that is not the fault of courts or police. Thats lawyers who can charge an arm and a leg because we live in a society that allows each of us to get paid what we are worth. Why shouldnt a lawyer have the right to charge an arm and a leg while someone else can go mining or work on a oil rig and make a motsa? Might not help someone in need, but then again I dont see builders offering to build for cost to help the less fortunate. Why should a lawyer give up his right to earn what he can?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozpacman

I don't know how the LIDAR equipment is set up in NSW, however I know that the units used by Qld Police will not give a speed readout until they have been locked onto the subject vehicle for the required time frame.

The LIDAR works by measuring the time that it takes for the light pulses to travel from the unit to the subject vehicle and then return to the unit. Obviously as the vehicle drawers closer the time decreases and this is what calculates the closing speed of the vehicle.

I'm only a copper and definitely not a scientist, but given that the speed of light is a constant, I can't see how the unit would 'read wrong'.

Maybe operator error.

Cheers,

Russ

Im guessing here, but I would assume the mechanism that knows how long it took would need to calculate the difference in time. No matter what you spend on a watch for example they are never 100% accurate and thats in reference to seconds, not even a $20,000 Rolex. The only accurate timing mechanism is the atomic clock. The device we're talking about needs to be accurate to within timings related to the speed of light, milliseconds and nanoseconds are too large a measure to accurately time such speeds. If 1 ns is equal to 10km/h, then an error of 1 ms would have you well over the limit despite being under it in reality. Dont quote me on the figures, but the more delicate the device the more room there is for errors to occur. Thats why things like the Hadron collider or many other things in science have a hell of a lot more backups and checks and balances to ensure accurate results, than your average radar.

Id day there are countless opportunities for errors to occur. It is funny though, the same doubters of radar tech, rely on GPS as their evidence to counter it.

2011G6E · 28-10-2011, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angeldust

this... im a scientist and also work with instruments that take measurements.
i totally agree with your statement.

Yep, me too...spent a lot of time in labs doing fine measurements, and if you went to your superior with one figure and said you'd hastily done it on the spot without careful preperation, you'd be sent straight back to take a heap more measurements until you got a good spread of figures for an average, or at least several of the same result, and could account completely for all environmental variables at the time and note them all in a set of appendixes to the measurement table.
By the way, the comment that "the only accurate time measurement is an atomic clock" is only reasonably correct...even one of those has an error of plus or minus a small amount, even though it is over hundreds of years, so even an atomic clock has an error margin attached to it.

The point isn't whether the guy has a rich daddy, whether he was doing 79 in a sixty zone or something more...the fact is that two speed measuring devices were caught out giving two different readings at the same time (the one the cop had, and the one caught on camera in the car itself). This shows that one of the devices is wrong...which one? Who knows, but we can say that the hand-held device apparently wasn't used properly, so a good scientist (OK, let's drop that and say "anyone taking a measurement") would ignore the reading that has a small amount of doubt about it and go with the other figure which should be fairly constant...the one in a fixed car with no one operating it.
On that basis, he should be given the benefit of the doubt, and at most be given the lower of the two readings.

**Dave R** · 28-10-2011, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr smith

You really think a 29 yr old with a 1000cc bike is sticking to the speed limits?

I think some people need to look up Lady Wakehurst Drive on google maps and they will understand. It's one of the best driving roads in the country, possibly the world, 40+ km of twists and straights through the mountains with stunning scenery to match. There's only one reason a motorcycle enthusiast finds himself in the middle of the national park. And besides, they still clocked him at 16km/h over with the car's radar once the police car caught up to him. I'm all for beating tickets but this really is just a case of a rich kid getting off on a technicality. I can imagine how annoyed the officer would be, he's been made to look like a complete idiot when we all know that mr motorcyle enthusiast wasn't really putting along at 60 through the national park.. by his own admission he overtook someone on the wrong side of the road. Again, I wish my daddy was a barrister.

Aussie XB12SS · 28-10-2011, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtxb67

i wonder if the "equipment was used incorrectly" line would be rehashed by anyone here, if they had their car stolen (or worse) and the criminal responsible was let off on a technicality

Not sure what that has to do with? I suppose if it was a policeman who stole your car (or worse) while using his Lidar incorrectly & got let off then yes I’d be annoyed.

Story is about a motorcyclist who was booked incorrectly due to whatever.
He was speeding & admitted it. If he had of been booked at the correct speed then there wouldn’t even be a story.
Rich or not – so what.

prydey · 28-10-2011, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aussie XB12SS

Not sure what that has to do with?

this person is getting off on a technicality. chances are he was speeding. how would you feel if someone broke into your house or stole your car or whatever, and then got off on a technicality?

tweeked · 28-10-2011, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

this person is getting off on a technicality. chances are he was speeding. how would you feel if someone broke into your house or stole your car or whatever, and then got off on a technicality?

I would be angry at the Police for not following the law in prosecuting correctly

What are all the naysayers wanting, get rid of courts and have the Police as the sole judge. You really want that? You cant have it both ways.

Aussie XB12SS · 28-10-2011, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

this person is getting off on a technicality. chances are he was speeding. how would you feel if someone broke into your house or stole your car or whatever, and then got off on a technicality?

Get real.
He didn’t get off from speeding at 149 km/h as he wasn’t doing 149km/h
That’s not a “Technicality”.
He said he was speeding. He should have been booked for doing 76km/h then there wouldn’t be a ““Technicality”.

What the hell has someone breaking into a house & getting away with it got to do with someone being booked for the wrong speed?

FYI. I came home from work a few years ago & someone was in my house – he won’t do that again or he will get smarter & have two exit points. Suppose that was a Technicality issue on his behalf.

flappist · 28-10-2011, 09:34 AM

Keep it civil guys. You all have your opinions and positions and some here have more insight and experience but attacking the points and not each other will ensure that warnings don't appear.

CarTooner:-) · 28-10-2011, 09:47 AM

Interesting discussion. I think one of the problems associated with road use, law enforcement and the daily defiance of some speed-limits is the inconsistent or inappropriate application of 'speed-limits'.

If this motorcyclist was even capable of doing 149kmph on that particular section of Lady W Rd in a National Park, then is the 60kmph limit really appropriate?

Was that cop waiting at that particular spot because anybody exceeding 60kmph (+ a miniscule 3kmph tolerance) is at high risk of causing serious trauma or fatality or was it because he's guaranteed of getting a quota and making some revenue for his employer (the State Gov)?

I'd rather see Police patrolling and getting dangerous drivers off our roads than setting traps and handing out fines for infringements as low as 3kmph over a designated limit.
Would a 70kmph or 80kmph limit be more appropriate/logical for this road?

z80 · 28-10-2011, 04:01 PM

I chose to fight a speeding ticket once where a young bloke changed lanes in front of me and then changed back and I got the ticket and he was waved on.

I got my *** kicked clear across the courtroom even though the copper did not have the accreditation for the LIDAR, did not have his glasses on that night, could not remember the side street he was hiding in...etc etc etc.

When he pulled me over i knew i wasn't doing 60, it was downhill, i was doing about 65....and he asked "what is your reason for speeding?"

I have none I said, the he wrote a ticket for 90 in a 60 zone...(the speed the other driver had done)

I pleaded innocent after admitting roadside that I had travelled over the posted limit.

Big mistake.

The judge knew the point of law and ignored everything else.

I was furious, so I saw a solicitor and barrister and was advised thus in these exact words by them....

"You can put around 4k into our accounts and that will cover the first day"

"But....just remember, it will be the County Court, you just might encounter another ******* judge who decides to lock you up overnight in the holding cells while he deliberates on his decision"

He then said, very emphatically...."trust me, you do NOT want to spend a single night in the holding cells with the wrong cell mate, not even for an hour, it can be a life changing experience"

I then just paid the money and walked away.....

gtxb67 · 28-10-2011, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aussie XB12SS

Not sure what that has to do with?.

it has everything to do with it, but you need to read my post - not make assumptions on whether i think the rider was guilty or not

some people are happy for technicalities when it suits them, and unhappy when it doesn't

b0son · 28-10-2011, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr smith

You idoiots on here who think its cool to speed and have some sort of agender on bagging out speed limits need to spend a night in the trauma ward in any large city hospital.

Sure, and I'll see countless people there being treated for alcohol-related violence etc. Following that logic, lets ban alcohol.

But no, you'll then tell me we shouldnt because you can drink responsibly ... in which case, why cant someone speed responsibly?

Why is so much time and effort spent enforcing speeds within 10kmh of the limit? Thats not safety - thats fund raising.

gtxb67 · 28-10-2011, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweeked

What are all the naysayers wanting, get rid of courts and have the Police as the sole judge. You really want that?

i just want people to take responsibility for their actions
i do not know he was doing 149 kph just as no one here knows he was not. however, "if" he was, he should have accepted it. if he t-boned a car at that speed, the consequences would be much bigger than a license suspension and fine

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweeked

You cant have it both ways.

maybe, but some believe a speedster getting off on a technicality is ok, yet the guy stealing their car, belongings or the innocence of someone close to them getting off on a technicality is wrong . . . "they" can't have it both ways

dimka100 · 28-10-2011, 05:00 PM

The worst thing about all this situation is that tax payers have spend a lot of money on police resources who only spend their time booking speeding drivers (Instead of solving actual crimes and making us feel safe), then on top of that the tax payer has spend more money on the court system that is flooded with silly speeding offenses infringements and then the tax payer is asked to pay damages to the “offenders” who prove innocent in court …

If our government had at least one operational brain cell, they could possibly see the inefficiency in the current system … but anyways what I’m thinking … an arts degree only gets you so far (that is if they even have one …)