Manual or Auto?? XR6T - Page 2

MITCHAY · 05-01-2007, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colossus

Bit of a false comparison - a starter has a proven undeniable advantage over a crank handle.

Auto's still have their own brain that dosnt do what you want when you want, cant dump revs, sometimes holds revs, sometimes dosnt, sometimes changes down to what you want, sometimes dosnt, are still heavier and more complex than a manual box, no control around a track or even twisties on the road, about their only advantage is a poofteenth of a second for drag racers. I am a car enthusiast who enjoys driving (an integral part of which is a clutch pedal otherwise you are just steering) therefore never again for me until they can improve them much more - I'll stick with the manuals.

What he said. My car is 100% street driven and 0% 1/4 or track driven

xbgs351 · 05-01-2007, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC

All those that like manuals - would you also like the old crank handle instead of a starter?

Can you please explain how you match the revs to avoid compression locking the rear when downshifting in an auto?

JC · 05-01-2007, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xbgs351

Can you please explain how you match the revs to avoid compression locking the rear when downshifting in an auto?

The newer autos (which is what we are talking about) have software that does this for you. You can zoom along at 100 and chuck it into 1, but the electronics won't let it happen - it will choose 3 or 2 instead.

Your question shows that you (and a lot of other people) have no idea how truly good the new autos are, and just go with manual because it is the "real driving option", and the comparison made between auto and manual is based on the old C4 vs toploader etc.

To me, a manual is outdated and old technology, but an SMG or Semi-auto on the otherhand, (ie a manual that doesn't have a clutch) are clever bits of kit and in the next 10 years will probably replace true manual gearboxes in new cars.

Do I enjoy driving a manual car? Yes. Do I enjoy driving an auto car? Yes. Do I drive my auto like a manual? Most of the time - in the AU it's not the same as the SSS in the BA+ range, but you can still change down, hold revs etc and it's still fun.

**Polyal** · 05-01-2007, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC

The newer autos (which is what we are talking about) have software that does this for you. You can zoom along at 100 and chuck it into 1, but the electronics won't let it happen - it will choose 3 or 2 instead.

Your question shows that you (and a lot of other people) have no idea how truly good the new autos are, and just go with manual because it is the "real driving option", and the comparison made between auto and manual is based on the old C4 vs toploader etc.

To me, a manual is outdated and old technology, but an SMG or Semi-auto on the otherhand, (ie a manual that doesn't have a clutch) are clever bits of kit and in the next 10 years will probably replace true manual gearboxes in new cars.

Do I enjoy driving a manual car? Yes. Do I enjoy driving an auto car? Yes. Do I drive my auto like a manual? Most of the time - in the AU it's not the same as the SSS in the BA+ range, but you can still change down, hold revs etc and it's still fun.

Mate if you think a BTR is a good gearbox then you need to get into a ZF.

The 4SA is a POS, no matter how "tough" it is.

There is no substitute for a conventional manual. Do we really need to revist the poll results of the whole manual vs auto thing?

You steer an auto, you drive a manual.

We are comparing the 4SA to the T5 to the T56. Both manuals are nothing to right home about, and that 4SA has been around for donkey's years. The only reason the T56 is better is because its a bit stronger than the T5 and its a six speed.

SSS is a crock aswell (in 4SA form), its not that often it actually gets it exactly right, where as a manual you can pluck any gear you want, at any time.

My GF's Barina is manual and that car is infinitely more enjoyable to drive than my car. Mine is good for highway cruising and thats about it.

JC · 05-01-2007, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colossus

I am a car enthusiast who enjoys driving (an integral part of which is a clutch pedal otherwise you are just steering) therefore never again for me until they can improve them much more - I'll stick with the manuals.

Maybe ideas/misconceptions like this is why so many P platers (and other drivers too, I guess) die. Do you really think that driving is all about changing gears, and steering/braking. That part of it is actually only the interface between driver and car - the real skill in driving is judgement and timing, spacial awareness, and knowing what other cars/people/hazards are around you, etc. The actual mechanical part of driving is not a skill - the proof of this is that an 80 year old can drive a manual, but they are usually as slow as a wet week because the rest of the skills required to actually drive are lacking (poor eyesight, slow reactions, etc).

The actual act of driving has nothing to do with the ability or otherwise to change gears, and how pressing a clutch in 20 times between sets of traffic lights can be called enjoyable is beyond me.

xbgs351 · 05-01-2007, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC

The newer autos (which is what we are talking about) have software that does this for you. You can zoom along at 100 and chuck it into 1, but the electronics won't let it happen - it will choose 3 or 2 instead.

Your question shows that you (and a lot of other people) have no idea how truly good the new autos are, and just go with manual because it is the "real driving option", and the comparison made between auto and manual is based on the old C4 vs toploader etc.

So if I'm driving along at 100km and I put it into 2nd I might get 3rd? Doesn't sound too reassuring to me. Does it blip the throttle at the same time like I can with a manual?

colossus · 05-01-2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC

Maybe ideas/misconceptions like this is why so many P platers (and other drivers too, I guess) die. Do you really think that driving is all about changing gears, and steering/braking. That part of it is actually only the interface between driver and car - the real skill in driving is judgement and timing, spacial awareness, and knowing what other cars/people/hazards are around you, etc. The actual mechanical part of driving is not a skill - the proof of this is that an 80 year old can drive a manual, but they are usually as slow as a wet week because the rest of the skills required to actually drive are lacking (poor eyesight, slow reactions, etc).

The actual act of driving has nothing to do with the ability or otherwise to change gears, and how pressing a clutch in 20 times between sets of traffic lights can be called enjoyable is beyond me.

You make a valid point about "driving" being all those things you listed above. However I thought our discussion about "driving" was regarding the performance or 'fun' side of driving which is what my quote was in reference to. Honestly autos just annoy the hell out of me and will never match a manual for control and enjoyment - I dont care how fast an ZF18 speed SMG3 auto can hit 100, its more about the pure control and skill you can extract out of a manual for me - just my opinion though, I respect yours too.

WINDSR · 05-01-2007, 10:23 AM

If the auto box is so good, why do all production race cars run manual boxes. I know, because autos are slow and dont show in engine at it full potential. this is a fact for track racing! They dont have as much engine breaking and theres no pedal engine control except for the loud pedal.

xbgs351 · 05-01-2007, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC

The actual act of driving has nothing to do with the ability or otherwise to change gears, and how pressing a clutch in 20 times between sets of traffic lights can be called enjoyable is beyond me.

Your not serious are you? An inability to change gears correctly = an inabilty to drive, and that applies to both automatics and manuals.

XRchic · 05-01-2007, 11:30 AM

Peak hour traffic doesnt bother me. At the moment, I am driving a total of 180 km to and from work (about an hour and a half each way) 5 days a week. Some of that is country driving, some is freeway driving but the most time consuming part is full blast peak hour traffic driving in the city and surrounds.

I have a broken left foot and ankle which has never healed. It hurts like hell when I am in peak hour traffic. However, I will never buy auto.

I have driven A LOT of autos, by the way. From old school stuff through to brand new stuff, including XR6Ts and XR8s (B series) and I have driven all of them in manual form too. No comparison. There is nothing like changing gears in the XR6T when its flat out, or hearing that V8 noise on the manual shift.

Often in town I will sit at the lights next to an XR8 or a GT or something that sounds awesome just idling. Then it takes off with a bit of enthusiasm and what do I hear? Awesome engine note, until the first auto gear change when the sounds sort of blend into each other. Nothing like the sound of a V8 manual changing, with a bit of chirping between 1 and 2, and even 2 and 3....

I grew up driving on a track, in big manuals, with my Dad and his mates. I never wanted to be like my Mum and her secretary/hairdresser friends all driving around in pretty little autos... Its just a mentality thing for me, an image perception that I grew up with. The racers drove manuals and the secretaries drove autos. I never liked the secretaries that much...

GTP owner · 05-01-2007, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRchic

Peak hour traffic doesnt bother me. At the moment, I am driving a total of 180 km to and from work (about an hour and a half each way) 5 days a week. Some of that is country driving, some is freeway driving but the most time consuming part is full blast peak hour traffic driving in the city and surrounds.

I have a broken left foot and ankle which has never healed. It hurts like hell when I am in peak hour traffic. However, I will never buy auto.

I have driven A LOT of autos, by the way. From old school stuff through to brand new stuff, including XR6Ts and XR8s (B series) and I have driven all of them in manual form too. No comparison. There is nothing like changing gears in the XR6T when its flat out, or hearing that V8 noise on the manual shift.

Often in town I will sit at the lights next to an XR8 or a GT or something that sounds awesome just idling. Then it takes off with a bit of enthusiasm and what do I hear? Awesome engine note, until the first auto gear change when the sounds sort of blend into each other. Nothing like the sound of a V8 manual changing, with a bit of chirping between 1 and 2, and even 2 and 3....

I grew up driving on a track, in big manuals, with my Dad and his mates. I never wanted to be like my Mum and her secretary/hairdresser friends all driving around in pretty little autos... Its just a mentality thing for me, an image perception that I grew up with. The racers drove manuals and the secretaries drove autos. I never liked the secretaries that much...

I think I am the direct opposite here. I grew up at the drags where all the fast cars were autos, and the tow cars were manuals. I have driven heaps of manuals, including some 650hp beasts, but I now find myself wanting to drive the auto turbo for the ease of it. They just suit the turbo better in my books.

Green X · 05-01-2007, 01:10 PM

Well I asked a similar question in the turbo forum about whether to go T56 or ZF just about everybody said got the ZF why even look at the Manuel.

I have driven manuals in car’s, busses and trucks; it’s fun for a wile but it wears a bit thin.

The same augments go on out 4Wding, Manuel or Auto, The Traditionalists are all Manuel is the only way, then they actually get behind a auto 4WD a realise how unbelievably better they are at everything except steep hill descents, Manuel you are juggling 3 pedals and a gear stick, auto you can control everything from the accelerator.

Lazy, no, Smart, yes.

Me I will be getting the ZF 6 speed over the T56 if that was the right option I don’t know yet but I will find out.

Deadman · 05-01-2007, 01:18 PM

After my experiences with a ZF auto, I doubt I will never consider manual again

But back on topic, if you're mate can stretch for a BF XR6T so that he can get the 6sp auto, i'd say that would be the move I would suggest and well worth the extra $. In the BA it'd be 50/50 I guess, and go down to preference, however I chose the auto.

but that's just my opinion!! not based on techincal stuff or anything, that's just me.

**Polyal** · 05-01-2007, 01:19 PM

But the question has nothing to do with the ZF!

And thats the first ive heard towing or 4x4ing being better with a manual.

Morpheus · 05-01-2007, 01:21 PM

just out interest, which is better suited to an N/A BA XR6 (Series I)? Might have a choice between two models: a Man model (thats done approx 115k), and an 4sp auto model (that has done approx 90k)

Deadman · 05-01-2007, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

But the question has nothing to do with the ZF!

Yeah I realised that after I posted and eddited a bit. But to say it has "nothing to do with the ZF" is a bit of a stretch. If someone is looking at an XR6T, and went for an auto, you're telling me you wouldn't strongly suggest they spend the minimal extra $ if they could to get a BF model and take advantage of the ZF? Esspecially if they plan to mod it?

GTP owner · 05-01-2007, 01:25 PM

Tou are right about the 4 wheel drive argument. I always thought they were rubbish for offroad work, but after having used an auto cruiser for serious offroad work I became a convert.

**Polyal** · 05-01-2007, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadman

Yeah I realised that after I posted and eddited a bit. But to say it has "nothing to do with the ZF" is a bit of a stretch. If someone is looking at an XR6T, and went for an auto, you're telling me you wouldn't strongly suggest they spend the minimal extra $ if they could to get a BF model and take advantage of the ZF? Esspecially if they plan to mod it?

I made the same mistake at the start of the thread.

Yeah of course I would recommend the ZF, its the greatest thing to happen to Falcons since I can remember (maybe the turbo itself), but we are talking BA or BA2 here, not BF.

I reckon manuals will have better resale too.

Dont worry about what one is quicker, go with your heart and what you like. But if you want to take the soft option then thats fine

flappist · 05-01-2007, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xbgs351

Can you please explain how you match the revs to avoid compression locking the rear when downshifting in an auto?

It is almost impossible to compression lock a T6, they have no compression to speak of. This is the first thing you have to get used to coming across from a V8, when you back off the DO NOT SLOW DOW (much).

As far as BA (4 speed) auto vs manual. Ignoring the alledged fragility of the T5 and the ION, the factors you should concider:
1) If you like drag racing on either private roads or tracks, the auto will be the go.
2) If you like to play on circuits or drive "enthusiasticly" on windy stuff the manual is the go. The auto will NOT change down exactly when you want it to at will bite you. I have seen BAs go grass cutting due to this.
3) If you will spend 0% doing anything "enthusiasticly" (why are you buying a T?) then concider your driving conditions. If you live in a city and play in slow traffic all the time then the auto is the go. If you live in the mulga then it is much of a muchness. N.B. You cannot push start a BA with a flat battery.
4) Why are you asking this question? If you have to ask why you should concider a manual then you are not a "manual driver" and will not enjoy it to its fullest extent.

My 3 BA1/2 FPVs have all be manual but then almost all of my cars over the last 30 years have been manual. When I no longer drive "enthusiasticly" or I move to a city then I will concider an auto.....

merlin · 05-01-2007, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morpheus

just out interest, which is better suited to an N/A BA XR6 (Series I)? Might have a choice between two models: a Man model (thats done approx 115k), and an 4sp auto model (that has done approx 90k)

Personal choice really.

But in the BA's (with the old 4 spd auto) the difference in the 0-100 time was 1 second, manual was low 7's, auto was low 8's.

xbgs351 · 05-01-2007, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

It is almost impossible to compression lock a T6, they have no compression to speak of. This is the first thing you have to get used to coming across from a V8, when you back off the DO NOT SLOW DOW (much).

I actually thought of that after my post. You can get away with murder with a low compression motor.

In these new automatics, if you hold the auto in a particular gear will it hold that gear regardless of the revs or will it overide the driver and shift up a gear?

GTP owner · 05-01-2007, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

N.B. You cannot push start a BA with a flat battery.

I push started my XR6T (manual) on the weekend. Are you referring to the auto, or all BAs?

xbgs351 · 05-01-2007, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP owner

I push started my XR6T (manual) on the weekend. Are you referring to the auto, or all BAs?

I roll start my BA all the time.

05-01-2007, 03:51 PM

Manual or auto; try and get a 6sp.

mowog · 05-01-2007, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xbgs351

In these new automatics, if you hold the auto in a particular gear will it hold that gear regardless of the revs or will it overide the driver and shift up a gear?

I have tried manual mode in my Territory and it holds the selected gear.

Smoke Pursuit · 05-01-2007, 03:59 PM

will hold and bounce off the rev limiter, its happened a few times to me lol.

**Polyal** · 05-01-2007, 04:26 PM

ah yes but how long does it take to actually do what you want, and why would you take it to the limiter?

xbgs351 · 05-01-2007, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

ah yes but how long does it take to actually do what you want, and why would you take it to the limiter?

You take it to the rev limit if you are about to enter a corner that requires that gear. Doing an up shift shortly before doing a downshift can be slower or not practical. I can't speak about the XR6T, but my cars pull to or past their rev limits. The rev limiters are my insurance policy.

**Polyal** · 05-01-2007, 07:58 PM

But just about every I6 I know makes the majority of its power well before the cut out point.

needfordspeed · 05-01-2007, 08:14 PM

I personally wouldn't get the T5 if I wanted to go for 300rwkw in a XR6T, with that much power you'd always be worried about breaking the box and you couldn't drive it like it's meant to be driven (with 300rwkw).

The auto can be strengthened, with some auto builders offering a reliable box which can handle 330rwkw with a warrenty. I'd personally go the auto box if you'r comparing it to a T5(Z) if you want high power, but i'd go the T56 over the auto.

But honestly you really shouldn't be asking us, go for a drive in both and see what you like best.