All things Solar (merged threads)

[xtremerus]

Query.
There is no way that the solar credit of up to 3 times the retail price of the electricity, is sustainable.
What will happen when the rebates all expire?
Will Power Co.s only pay the wholesale price of the solar power generated in the future?

[ute83]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

Query.
There is no way that the solar credit of up to 3 times the retail price of the electricity, is sustainable.
What will happen when the rebates all expire?
Will Power Co.s only pay the wholesale price of the solar power generated in the future?

It expires in the year 2024.

[ute83]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

so do you leave it on all the time or just boost as necessary!

last I looked into it the price, from memory, was around the $3,500 gas boosted

the reason i'm asking is if we swap our power supply across to origin we will be able to pay for our gas bill and buy a solar hot water system from the infeed credits of the solar array

at the moment we will just have a useless credit (I think) unless i pay tax on it which I don't want to do.....may as well use the excess power generated to pay for something

It is not taxable here in Vic.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

Query.
There is no way that the solar credit of up to 3 times the retail price of the electricity, is sustainable.
What will happen when the rebates all expire?
Will Power Co.s only pay the wholesale price of the solar power generated in the future?

I don't know of anybody that is getting three times the cost of power (I wish) 90c per kilowatt would be VERY pleasing

but the feed in tariff of these prices are history as of the end of september 2011.....not sure what you would receive now, I've heard 18c per kilowatt, also heard a rumour of no money whatsoever which is a bit rich I feel

personally I think if the power is sold to consumers by suppliers at up to 30c per kilowatt then that is what should be paid to the array owner

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by ute83

It is not taxable here in Vic.

mongrels class it as income here (south aus.) unless you are a full time old age pensioner!

[mickyyyy]

Is it still worth it to get it installed now?

Also who is good in Sydney to supply and install?

[z80]

A few blokes in WA had the right idea...


No panels at all...charge batteries at 9c in the night time and dump the power back on the grid from the batteries at 66c during the daytime peak.

Not a solar panel anywhere....the govt quickly fixed that little trick...by cutting rebates...

[xisled]

Originally Posted by mickyyyy

Is it still worth it to get it installed now?

Also who is good in Sydney to supply and install?

If you go onto the GENR tariff in NSW the buy back is $0.00

[xisled]

Originally Posted by ute83

It expires in the year 2024.

Depending on what state and when you signed up.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by mickyyyy

Is it still worth it to get it installed now?

Also who is good in Sydney to supply and install?

all depends on what you are looking for and your power usage

assuming you use an average of 10 kilowatts per day and you buy an array that will cover MOST of that MOST of the time,

6 hours per day for average is what most experts agree on as the usable solar output

just say a 3 kilowatt system is around the $10,000 mark possibly less if you shop around.....this will generate ROUGHLY 18 kilowatts average per day, more than enough for your needs

I just went to the energy matters website that I bought mine through to get that price

then does it really matter if you do not get any feed in tariff if you don't have any more power bills EVER!!!!!!

[mytoolsupplies]

I have not gone solar, looked into it ,I wanted a stand alone system and use the grid as a backup Most companies,I contacted told me it was not possable to do this .Not true ,and now that the feed back in tarriff is 7c kilowatt hr you would never save anything unless I build my own panel at around $220 per 1.5kilowatt panel.
The total cost quted to me for a five kilowatt system was over $40,000

[poppa smurf]

ah! stand alone systems are a whole new ball game involving Battery banks (deep cycle and very expensive) and MUCH more electronic equipment

but very easily "do-able" I have done exactly this but on a much smaller system in my Hi-ace camper.....I'm totally self sufficient power wise for how ever long I wish to "sit"

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by z80

Yep...if the Govt puts a rebate on anything up goes the price.

Since when does it cost 5k to make a black bit of metal with pipes and a water cylinder when I can get a std hot water system for under $1k?

I work in Solar hot water and I can say that the cost of manufacture is correct. We would actually be making more money selling a 5 star gas hot water for $1500 than an adequate solar for $5k.

The extra cost is the copper and the installation. Copper pipe currently costs anywhere from $40 to $50 per meter for 1/4 inch pipe, and if you look at the solar panels they're absolutely choked with copper; manufacturing cost is about $600 cost to the manufacturer.

As for the tank, when solar is an uncontrollable heat source, water can and will boil inside that tank, the tank lining in solar is at least three times the thickness of a standard water heater to cope with the fluctuating water temperature, so the cost of manufacture of a vitreous enamel tank (let alone Stainless) is anywhere from $1500 to $3000.

Then there is the installation cost. If you have a standard hot water tank on the ground and it breaks, to replace it with a new one all you have to do is disconnect the old one and reconnect the new one. Whereas with solar, you have to disconnect the old one, run copper pipe to and from the roof then there is the extra cost of a gas booster, which is essentially a second hot water system.

So the extra cost isn't a salesman pocketing thousands of dollars, it's the engineering that goes into building a system built to cope with both summer and winter conditions. Unfortunately not enough people understand that and so I'm having to abandon all hope and leave the industry, it's a pity really.

[mytoolsupplies]

I must question the cost of copper pipe $40 to $50 a meter,where are you?
I have solar and there is not that much pipe ,And when mine was installed ,the panels faced west ,no good .I made a frame and reset them level east west and a 20% slope facing north and now have no problems .I tried to get the company that installed them to rectify the mounting but they refused telling me the system was working fine,Yes if you used cold water

[mytoolsupplies]

Re my comment on stand alone systems ,I know it is do-able I am from the country But try ringing solar companies and you will see what I mean ;
Tell them they are installed on caravans and mobile homes etc and they say thats different ,I told them OK i will jack up the house and put wheels underneath and vice versa with the caravan and I still got the same answer,Banging my head against a brick wall with most of them

[dave351cid]

one of the main reasons you cant get a stand alone system connected to the house is that if its conneted to the same circuits as the mains power then it can become a major safety issue.

if the standard mains feed in solar systems are set up to meet australian standards, when there is a problem on the mains supply side and there is a power outage the solar inverter shuts down to prevent power from the solar systems feeding back into the damaged lines.
eg - the HV conductors could be down in the street , the normal protection systems will quickly shut off power being supplied . if the solar systems are able to continue feeding into the mains (ie - from a battery bank) then the 230volts that leave your house roof can be converted to 11000 or 22000 volts through the street transformer and fed back to the broken cables with no isolation point creating a highly dangerous situation.

i am sure that the technolegy is out there to make battery back up sysems work with feed in but at the moment it probably is just not viable.

[dave351cid]

i have a 2.1 kw power system on my shed roof with the option to expand to 3.4 km when i save up for some more panels. it cost me $4300 fitted.

i havent had a full account period yet since it was hooked up with the new meter but i am guessing i should come out wit about a neutral account. i`ll be happy with that.


when i had the house built 18 months ago i opted for a solar hot water system. i went with a AAE convection tube type and since i moved into house october 2010 i have turned on the electric booster about 3 times when we have had a week or more of rain without seeing any sun. means that my showers are free = tank water from the rain on the roof and electricity free heating.

[z80]

Originally Posted by mytoolsupplies

I have not gone solar, looked into it ,I wanted a stand alone system and use the grid as a backup Most companies,I contacted told me it was not possable to do this .Not true ,and now that the feed back in tarriff is 7c kilowatt hr you would never save anything unless I build my own panel at around $220 per 1.5kilowatt panel.
The total cost quted to me for a five kilowatt system was over $40,000

Can't see your problem...i had a standalone system for years before getting sick of forking out for batteries every few years.

Here's your solution.....

Find an electrician to put a two way switch on just the lighting circuits of your house.

Position A is lights powered from the grid
Position B is lights powered from your standalone inverter
Position C all off from both sources.

Not hard at all mate.

have alook at a company that can supply everything, and made in australia ....... SELECTRONICS in Victoria.

$40k for 5kw? nahhhhhh.....


If you want a deluxe solution to standalone and grid then have a look at the Selectronics Pro solution.

It will probably do exactly what you want.

Originally Posted by dave351cid

i am sure that the technolegy is out there to make battery back up sysems work with feed in but at the moment it probably is just not viable.

Selectronics have solved the problems with battery based grid feed systems...by charging batteries and then running them down as far as possible in the afternoons they manage to extend the nett generation time of the panels and mitigate the peak grid draw on this type of system even after the sun goes down...so you aren't drawing power at peak rates until the batteries reach a predetermined minimum charge every night.

now isn't that a good idea?



.

[z80]

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

I work in Solar hot water and I can say that the cost of manufacture is correct. We would actually be making more money selling a 5 star gas hot water for $1500 than an adequate solar for $5k.

The extra cost is the copper and the installation. .

$1500 ??

I can buy a 5 star Rheem hot water 380L system for $1500 from Reece plumbing...and I did.

Local plumber quoted $1500 plus installation for identical unit.

As long as I cleaned up the mess, disposed of the old unit and made cups of tea......Phhtttt!

2 hours later, including to pickup the unit from Reece, a shifter and philips screwdriver a roll of thread seal tape and did the job myself.

Some guys reckon they are worth a thousand bucks a day for fitting two pipes and reconnecting three wires.


No sympathy from me if the industry goes bad....

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by z80

$1500 ??

I can buy a 5 star Rheem hot water 380L system for $1500 from Reece plumbing...and I did.

Local plumber quoted $1500 plus installation for identical unit.

As long as I cleaned up the mess, disposed of the old unit and made cups of tea......Phhtttt!

2 hours later, including to pickup the unit from Reece, a shifter and philips screwdriver a roll of thread seal tape and did the job myself.

Some guys reckon they are worth a thousand bucks a day for fitting two pipes and reconnecting three wires.


No sympathy from me if the industry goes bad....

And that's why I'm about to get laid off....

Because Solar is a new industry, people are skeptical. It's the same with any industry though, that you get what you pay for.

Here is a picture of an installation that our plumbers did:



Notice the lagged pipes, colorbond capping and in roof pipework? that's all extra labour to make the system look good and work properly.

Now a gentleman said that he can get the same system for $1500 cheaper, and lo and behold he showed me the quote and it was $1500 cheaper.

2 weeks later, I get a call from the supplier to ask if we could have a look at a warranty job, and it was the same gentleman with the cheaper quote, and this was his job:



No lagged pipes, planks of wood used as a frame, two manifolds connected with a piece of hose pipe, and loose pipes running across the roof.

Essentially, you get what you pay for. Because people look for the cheapest solution, I cannot stay in the industry; as I said, it's really quite sad that people think that way.

[poppa smurf]

as for the question about the worthiness of investing in solar just let me say this

if, like I was, you are currently paying $150 per month for power bills (average 10 kilowatts per day x 30 days + supply charges

if, for instance you placed that money into an "interest free" payment scheme, remembering you have killed your power bill.

after 30 months you have paid for the solar array and you no longer have power bills

as for say $13,000 is too much to pay.....you are going to give the same amount or probably more to the power companies anyway so why not place that money into solar and reap the benefit yourself?

stand alone power is very achievable but expensive because of the batteries and other electronic paraphernalia that goes along with it to keep the sparks running along the wires....Z80 seems to have a solution that makes sense

I remember "free light" and it's big heavy truck batteries.....and of course the kero fridge and ice box then kero lights.....I guess we could go back to that if we really wish

HMMmm! wonder where i would get a kero, 60" plasma tv from???

can't comment on the cost of solar hot water, my son has it but his daily bathing rituals are different than mine, office worker so showers in the AM

cost of construction is unknown to me

[Matty4]

Without starting a new thread I thought I'd ask a couple of questions here.
Currently looking at a ~5kw system and one company (Energy Matters) as supplied a quote using REC235PE panels and a Sunny Boy SB5000TL inverter for around $13.5K.

Firstly, are these panels and inverters of sound quality?
Secondly, is this a fair price?

I have absolutely no idea when it comes to the technical side of solar, I just know that I need to try and reduce my bills. We currently average bills with between 35 - 40kWh average usage per day.

Cheers,
Matty

[ute83]

Originally Posted by Matty4

Without starting a new thread I thought I'd ask a couple of questions here.
Currently looking at a ~5kw system and one company (Energy Matters) as supplied a quote using REC235PE panels and a Sunny Boy SB5000TL inverter for around $13.5K.

Firstly, are these panels and inverters of sound quality?
Secondly, is this a fair price?

I have absolutely no idea when it comes to the technical side of solar, I just know that I need to try and reduce my bills. We currently average bills with between 35 - 40kWh average usage per day.

Cheers,
Matty

Try Solar Dynamics, They have advertised down here 5 kw for $ 10200

[poppa smurf]

mate I dealt with energy matters and the whole affair was not pleasant

I am well away from Melbourne but they made me jump through hoops to get my system in place...not once did they inspect the site apart from google maps

they made me do all the measurements and place the extra purlins

I had to submit more photographs than it would take to fill a magazine

because they didn't have an installer in our region I had to pay $2.50 per kilometre for the installers to come and do the job

my advice is to have a look at the energy matters forum, although it is heavily audited and complaints do not stay up there very long.

but have a look and then seek other quotes from elsewhere.....the employees on the end of the phones at energy matters are morons

the panels that they use are as good as any and the sunny boy inverters do the job but the service is *****!

[2011G6E]

Good time to be doing it too...they've been around long enough and had enough hiccups to start with that the shonky operators and dodgy installers are gone, and pretty much all that's left are the well-known trustworthy ones.

[z80]

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

And that's why I'm about to get laid off....

Because Solar is a new industry, people are skeptical. It's the same with any industry though, that you get what you pay for.

Here is a picture of an installation that our plumbers did:

image

Notice the lagged pipes, colorbond capping and in roof pipework? that's all extra labour to make the system look good and work properly.

.

I don't like that system.


With the storage tank at ground level...sure easy to install but..

The rocket scientist who designed it didn't realize that heat rises???

It relies on an electric motor to keep circulating the hot water from the panels to the tank.

The old fashioned units had the tank above the panels and used free thermo-siphoning to move the water.

Just more to go wrong and I'll bet you i won't be able to get the little re-circ motor after a few years when it craps itself...

Not for me....sorry.

[z80]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

mate I dealt with energy matters and the whole affair was not pleasant

I am well away from Melbourne but they made me jump through hoops to get my system in place...not once did they inspect the site apart from google maps

Yeah...me too...but mine was a win..

Took them 8 months to start my job....I had paid a 30% deposit...

By the time they came to install it the SMA inverter had changed to a transformerless model and they gave me the newer model at no extra cost.


But the best bit? It was a holiday house, and I had signed the contract to sell it 30 days before...

They installed all the panels, I got my rebate and the house was demolished three months later and shops built on the site.

Dunno where the panels ended up...just dunno.......but new owner said to grab anything i wanted off it...doors, windows, carpets...etc

[poppa smurf]

hell mine didn't take 8 months but it sure felt like it.......I ordered and paid for mine in july 2011.......install was to take place by august at the latest

august rolled around and nothing done....contact made by me to service personnel (1).....oh we need site pictures,..a photo of the house roof at 40 mtrs, a photo of the house at less than 20 mtrs, a photo of the distribution box and two photos of the internal purlins also measurements between purlins and precise roof measurements, I said well dont you do that and the answer was oh no that is up to you

this I reluctantly did and waited..2 weeks later I phoned again only to be told my original "handler" had quit and no-one was on my case,....photos were lost please submit a second set....not happy but I did so

this was repeated twice up to and well after the september deadline for the lower feed in tariff which is why I kept on with them...anyway a lot more problems including not being able to physically fit the panels on the roof even though I had given them the measurements

a lot of to-ing and fro-ing and sacked answering personnel and more lost paperwork it was decided that the panels would fit on the garage, after me upgrading the house distribution box at a cost of $3,500 the system now was to be placed on the shed......photos please

so photos submitted and measurements taken they say that two extra purlins need to be placed and the distribution box in the shed is no good

I had to place the purlins at my cost and the distribution box upgrade cost me an extra $1400

I measured the shed and found that I could place two extra panels up there so I rang the mob up and asked if i could purchase two more panels......they would sell me one at $700 but the inverter would not take the extra power from the requested extra panel.....I offered to pay for the upgraded inverter and panel but the answer was a simple "no".....I could not understand why not as they advertised "upgrades" but would not sell me an "upgraded" system

time comes for etsa to upgrade the meter to a smart meter and I was told that the pvseg numbers were not submitted and it could not be done.....quick phone call to ask for the numbers and I was told that the pvseg numbers could not be allocated until the meter was upgraded....etsa would not upgrade without the numbers.......I spat it and ordered all off my property and cancelled the solar, I'd had a gutfull,

within seconds I had the pvseg numbers.......then the feller from etsa said he shouldn't really install the meter as the numbers don't match....GRRRrrrr!!!

spat it again and a quick phone call from him and the meter was installed......

my neighbour got a 2.5 kilowatt system installed a month after mine was finished.....phoned on a wednesday....installed and finished by the following monday......he didn't have to do a thing

what a difference a company makes

but all finished now and producing free power with no more power bills for me!

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by z80

I don't like that system.


With the storage tank at ground level...sure easy to install but..

The rocket scientist who designed it didn't realize that heat rises???

It relies on an electric motor to keep circulating the hot water from the panels to the tank.

The old fashioned units had the tank above the panels and used free thermo-siphoning to move the water.

Just more to go wrong and I'll bet you i won't be able to get the little re-circ motor after a few years when it craps itself...

Not for me....sorry.

Mate your thinking like I am, any one in the industry with half a brain always buys the close coupled system, and they are still around (in fact I sold two this past week).

I agree with you that it seems almost pointless to design a system where the hottest point is at ground level, but it allows for flexibility. With any split system, if it uses a Grundfos pump, expect the pump to break every five years and cost about $350. If it's not a Grundfos, expect about 2.5 years and the same cost.

People want the tanks on the ground because they don't like the look of the tank, or think it's too heavy, or don;t have enough roof etc... just depends on the customer, really.

[Stagg]

Everyone has to realise that Solar PV and Solar Hot Water are two investments that everyone will either buy through realising it's good for the environment, or eventually be forced to buy one.

Electric hot water systems are about to be made redundant, along with the rebate to replace them, which means if you have an electric hot water with no gas available after they are no longer available and you need to replace it, your only choice will be solar hot water AND you'll have to pay more because there would be no rebates available.


When customers say to me that it's not worth it because the payback period is too long, I say to them: Name 6 investments you can make in your life where the investment will pay for itself. If any one on this thread can name 6 items that pay for themselves, I will personally give you a bottle of wine

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.

just for fun, see if you can name 6 things to buy that pay for themselves!