Ford chief says future product will disprove Holden promise to ‘out-engineer'

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Paxton

JEM is no more.

Don't go looking either. Ford found and silenced him a wile back.

They still love him; he's got a nice "Nitro Signature" Series XR8 with some special 'numbers' under the hood.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

They still love him; he's got a nice "Nitro Signature" Series XR8 with some special 'numbers' under the hood.

I noticed.

We live in interesting times

[ReVd_uP]

this XR8 hasnt got a unique set of bonnet stripes on it has it????

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by ReVd_uP

this XR8 hasnt got a unique set of bonnet stripes on it has it????

No. Why do you ask that?

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by yanknbank

....and what did they have to say about it?

Rumor has it that when stepping out of the G6ET, Mulally said "Holy Crap, that is a fast car........."

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Rumor has it that when stepping out of the G6ET, Mulally said "Holy Crap, that is a fast car........."

The article from motortrend.com.au 20FEB2008:

CEO so impressed with FG Falcon - he wants one!
Feb 20th, 2008Print1 commentComment

It seems the head honcho at Ford, Alan Mulally has a thing for our new FG Falcon. The Ford CEO recently got behind the wheel of an FG Falcon G6E Turbo at an Australian test facility and came away mightily impressed. In fact he declared, “I want one”!

There is a general world-wide consensus that Ford Australia build a better four-door sedan than Ford North America, so it is not hard to believe that Mulally would prefer the FG Falcon over the alternative at home – a Taurus.

Will he ship one over? Who knows… We do know that there was at least one pre-production FG shipped to the States last year for evaluation.




Once again there are rumours on the internet that the FG Falcon platform will underpin future rear-wheel-drive models in the U.S. but at the moment, they remain just that, rumours.

Suffice to say, if you spend anytime on the internet you will know that Americans and Australians alike have a real respect for the Ford Australia product. All that is required now is that the FOMOCO listen to what the people want and follow GM’s lead with Holden.

If the CEO likes the FG Falcon so much that he wants his own, he should logically assume that the average punter in the U.S. might just feel the same.

[yanknbank]

Yanknbank -
Quote:
According to my sources out Lara, Kuzak's exact words were:

"This is the best car in the world. Bar none."

Thanks Paxton. I knew that both Alan Mullally and Derek Kuzak were in the country early last year to sample the local product, but hadn't heard any real knowedgable feedback from those in the know about what was actually discussed and how the local cars came across.
I did read and see some positive comment attributed to Mullally, but I was interested, particularly, in what Kusak had to say.

[ReVd_uP]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

No. Why do you ask that?

Saw an FG nitro XR8 outside FoMoCo a few times with 2 thick silver stripes that when up the bonnet and down the rear of the front guards, actually looked pretty good, looked to be a staff members car

[500SEC]

Is there an existing thread regarding the 4cyl power plant for the Falcon, or can questions be asked here? Won't be a chopped Barra will it (a la Starfire) ? Whatever they do, hope they do it well.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by 500SEC

Is there an existing thread regarding the 4cyl power plant for the Falcon, or can questions be asked here? Won't be a chopped Barra will it (a la Starfire) ? Whatever they do, hope they do it well.

Information you are after.....

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...&page=1&pp=100

[ILLaViTaR]

I don't understand why Ford never fight back with crucial facts.
The 3.0 POS is over 100nm of torque down over the ford, drastically inferior at towing, yet Holden use it as a key argument on their behalf.

[owl]

Originally Posted by mr smith

And build quality and refinement and...............

After spending some time in a VE Calais and a G6E only a fool would pick the Calais.

it helps if you have 1 blue eye!!

[ltd]

Originally Posted by ILLaViTaR

I don't understand why Ford never fight back with crucial facts.
The 3.0 POS is over 100nm of torque down over the ford, drastically inferior at towing, yet Holden use it as a key argument on their behalf.

I expect that anyone test driving the commonbore with the woeful V6's will be unimpressed by its torque, and its need to redline to produce any performance. Honestly, Holden is backing itself into a corner with these engines, and as long as everyone believes in global warming, only a fool would dismiss the "4 cylinder only" fleet sales. Ford have it sussed and have found engines with snails on them go much better than anything Holden has to offer. Whatsmore, Holden has 6.2 litre V8's that are outpaced by fords turbo 6's; they really haven't got any engineering prowess to crow about.

[mr smith]

Originally Posted by GT69

Lucky there's about 3600 fools per month for Holden then hey

True, put a Holden badge on a and it would sell.

A Holden dealer I know was telling me back when GM got hold of Daewoo and they changed the Barinas from Opel sourced to rebadged Daewoos he was surprised that people were buying them compared to the fact that they didnt sell when badged as Daewoos and what a substandard car it was.
I would say more than 50% of private GM sales go to buyers who wouldnt have looked at any other brand.
My take on GMs buisiness is they rely heavily on styling and marketing. There is no denying the VE is not a bad looking car and their advertising hits the mark.

But my original statement stands, to drive a Calais and G6E back to back and pick the Calais would be crazy.
And as I've owned over 30 cars in 20 years and not all Fords I am not a one eyed Ford fan.

[Bossxr8]

Even with a billion dollars Holden couldn't engineer a brand new platform to perform better than one that was going on 10 years old.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I thought they'd been gluing the firewall in there since the VR days??

I think they have been, why are people surprised about glue used in cars? Its the norm now...

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Nikked

I think they have been, why are people surprised about glue used in cars? Its the norm now...

I think people are just surprised that glue would be used in an area of the car that readily receives high temperatures. Even when the engine is malfunctioning or being driven hard, there are some very hot surfaces inside the engine bay and vapours from glue can cause a fire risk, as has been the case in some fires.

[GT69]

That's right ltd. Its like using glue to hold the sub-framework together. There's places for glues, Even good glues. But a engine bay? I mean its called a firewall for a reason..... Its only job in life is to keep the stuff in the engine bay out of the cabin area. Knowing that and only that, I wouldn't buy a VE. Granted im not going to sit in a car that's on fire, But there's a chance the flames will be coming through the cab before they start coming out the bonnet.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by GT69

That's right ltd. Its like using glue to hold the sub-framework together. There's places for glues, Even good glues. But a engine bay? I mean its called a firewall for a reason..... Its only job in life is to keep the stuff in the engine bay out of the cabin area. Knowing that and only that, I wouldn't buy a VE. Granted im not going to sit in a car that's on fire, But there's a chance the flames will be coming through the cab before they start coming out the bonnet.

Right on mate. Doesn't another car, the Lamborgini Murcielago have a firewall that is glued together? Haven't they experienced a whole bunch of fires?

[Wally]

Originally Posted by GT69

That's right ltd. Its like using glue to hold the sub-framework together. There's places for glues, Even good glues. But a engine bay? I mean its called a firewall for a reason..... Its only job in life is to keep the stuff in the engine bay out of the cabin area. Knowing that and only that, I wouldn't buy a VE. Granted im not going to sit in a car that's on fire, But there's a chance the flames will be coming through the cab before they start coming out the bonnet.

I think the term firewall could only ever be coined loosely. It is really a bulkhead between the cabin and the engine bay. Insofar as resins, well they've been used for a long time and with advances in techology they are being used a lot more frequently. A couple of things that stand between death and a blazing inferno in a modern building is intumescent mastics and intumescent fire dampers.

[GT69]

Originally Posted by Wally

I think the term firewall could only ever be coined loosely. It is really a bulkhead between the cabin and the engine bay. Insofar as resins, well they've been used for a long time and with advances in techology they are being used a lot more frequently. A couple of things that stand between death and a blazing inferno in a modern building is intumescent mastics and intumescent fire dampers.

Your correct wally, unfortunately many many buildings have burnt down, with fires having been started by something that was once considered the latest and greatest state of the art scientific marvel.

As you say, with technology these materials will see wider and wider usage. Unfortunately technology evolves when problems are found. So maybe they are at there peak right now, maybe all the burning vt's where the original test cases, or maybe the technology is 3 disasters away from perfection. In short, I want the thing welded in thanks. Im sure the increased weight of welds over glue isn't substantial enough to warrent unnecessary risk.

[Wally]

I think you'll find many of the buildings severely damaged haven't had the benefit of the newer materials and systems. The mastics used are self extingusihing, have zip spread of flame, zip smoke evolved index and sufficiently flexible to prevent cracking under related stresses.

A car's bulkhead is more to do with rigidity and fumes, than spread of flame. If a fire did start in the engine bay I would suspect the penetrations for cables, pipes, pedals and the like would be the flame travel path of choice.

[uranium_death]

Holden cannot afford to concede anything.
Do you think they can afford to say, "Our products are inferior to the competition, but we are planning to get there eventually"?
No, they have to BS their way through to create brand confidence.

[GT69]

Once again wally your reasonably correct. The galaxy follows the path of least resistance.

The product your talking about sounds very impressive but no doubt there is a slightly cheaper 'just as good' alternative. However good these products are now, 10 years time we'll be seeing just how good they really are. Its the same as glueing in the bulkhead (never in my life have I heard it called that, but lets roll with it) so what we are now discussing is glue v weld. And I have no doubt there are glues far superior to welds, but is that whats being used? Or is it a product 'just as good?'

Since you've bought up building materials im happy to travel this path. A builder I work for has moved to mdf archs and skirts. Which is fine in theory. Its only massive down side is when it gets moisture on it. The stuff swells 10 fold on itself. However its fine until then. People cut corners to save coin. Thats all this is for holden.

Like so many things, fine in theory and brilliant idea a the time (hindenberg anyone? Painted with, what is now today, rocket fuel.)

So until something is truely tested, it cant be disqualified right?

Would the glue be the catalyst? I highly doubt it. Once a fire has started it will burn everything (everything burns, given enough temporature) however if the glue is tested in a fire and found to be the weak spot, then you have a huge drama. Like I said before, I don't plan to sit in a burning car, but if the car im in catches fire, I would like enough time to pull over and get out. It just seems a completely unnecessary risk.

[eb2fairmont]

Actually VE's have a one piece welded steel firewall. From the VN to VZ they were glued in, as they could then make the instrument panel as one piece and feed it in through the windscreen hole.

The VE went back to the welded steel firewall, for torsional rigidity.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by GT69

Like so many things, fine in theory and brilliant idea a the time (hindenberg anyone? Painted with, what is now today, rocket fuel.)

The Germans did quite a lot of stupid crap back in the late 1930's it seems.

Originally Posted by eb2fairmont

Actually VE's have a one piece welded steel firewall. From the VN to VZ they were glued in, as they could then make the instrument panel as one piece and feed it in through the windscreen hole.

The VE went back to the welded steel firewall, for torsional rigidity.

Why then does the VE still have no split fold rear seat (has a main structural member behind the seat) if the firewall is a main structural member as well?

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Why then does the VE still have no split fold rear seat (has a main structural member behind the seat) if the firewall is a main structural member as well?

Yeah I heard that too, I think they were calling it a "Laminated Firewall" and trying to promote it as a USP when in fact, it was a comprimise.

[eb2fairmont]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

The Germans did quite a lot of stupid crap back in the late 1930's it seems.



Why then does the VE still have no split fold rear seat (has a main structural member behind the seat) if the firewall is a main structural member as well?

For the same reason. Wonder if the tooling is still the same as that used in the XF ski port. (They brought that for the VN)

And I work with a German and they are still doing silly things.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by GT69

Once again wally your reasonably correct. The galaxy follows the path of least resistance.

The product your talking about sounds very impressive but no doubt there is a slightly cheaper 'just as good' alternative. ......

Well the regulations being what they are, with State and Commonwealth agencies insisting on tested systems, compliance with BCA, etc, it's not so easy to substitute good for bad. Products like Bostik Fireban 1 swell in heat/fire and seal. This is much better than having mechanical parts that distort and jam. When you see those blue donuts around pipes in carparks, you are looking at a firecollars designed to squeeze the pipe shut in a fire, once again intumescent mastic at work... older buildings don't generally have that protection. Hidden away in ventilation shafts are fire dampers too, chances being they are plastic fantastic also and their reaction times are far superior to the age old lead fusible link and jamming curtain dampers.

[phillyc]

There has been some interesting information. BUT can we get back on topic?!