2008 Paris Motor Show: Falcon put on hold

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by fmc351

49 million* cars sold worldwide in 06 and again in 07. Somehow I think Ford shareholders will care more about how to get 1% more of that (490,000 additional units), than keep a RWD in Australia because enthusiasts think its awesome.
http://www.metrics2.com/blog/2006/12...es_no3_re.html


I voted no, but Ford dont give a rats what I or you think.


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


*some of the numbers include light trucks, but you get the picture.

That’s not the issue. The issue is will a large front wheel drive sedan and Ute sell in this country. The answer is an unequivocal no.

They can go for their global sales increase but here is the tip. It won’t come from this segment and on the numbers there is no point considering importing the platform here. A Falcon FWD will not be able to compete with a rear drive Commodore.
This business is like match racing. The only alternative is to withdraw from the market because the business case to import these cars won’t be supported for such a low volume

Like I have said. The only way there will be a case to import a large Front wheel drive sedan and call it a Falcon is if Holden have dropped their RWD platform.
Mondeo sold around 440 units. How is a Falcon badged car going to increase volume on this model?

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by Buzz Box

Wheres the Magna/380

Not being made any more.


If Ford kill off the RWD Falcon, I'd just get a Commodore. Simple.

FWD = Death by driving wheels.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by HSE2

That’s not the issue. The issue is will a large front wheel drive sedan and Ute sell in this country. The answer is an unequivocal no.

They can go for their global sales increase but here is the tip. It won’t come from this segment and on the numbers there is no point considering importing the platform here. A Falcon FWD will not be able to compete with a rear drive Commodore.
This business is like match racing. The only alternative is to withdraw from the market because the business case to import these cars won’t be supported for such a low volume

Like I have said. The only way there will be a case to import a large Front wheel drive sedan and call it a Falcon is if Holden have dropped their RWD platform.
Mondeo sold around 440 units. How is a Falcon badged car going to increase volume on this model?

As I said, I voted no, but that is just personal preference. I just qualified that remark, and vote.

In the end, Ford wont make a large car then. Ford wont pump money into further developing something simply for Aus unless it offers not simply a positive return, but the best return. If it has world appeal, then they will, its about best returns on the investment. Sure, if Ford is making a profit on a RWD Falcon in Aus, an argument can be made that its worth it, it has a positive return on investment. But when you consider in order to do that Ford has to pump funds in, those same funds could deliver a better return invested elsewhere. Ford, like all companies have limited resources, it may be a large resource, but it isnt endless.


To make it easier, lets say you have $100k, and you have a choice to earn a return on one investment of say 10%, or another investment with no more risk and get 25%. Which would you choose to pump your money into? Ford shareholders are no different.

[GTP290]

Ford should look at the Holden product and ask why is it selling. Most people couldnt give a stuff about alloy front suspension parts and 5 star safety ratings, if it looks good theyll buy it. Look at the VE Sportswagon, its slower, thirstier, has less space and payload than the Falcon, but it looks hot, thats why there selling!! Make the Falcons look in proportion, give them nice rims, fill out the guards more, put bigger rubber on the things, and give them a bit more of a harder look around the back of the car.
Dont get me wrong what Ford have done with the FG is fantastic, but its no good having all this technology and safety features if no one likes the look of the car because most people would buy a better looking car over a better product, thats the way it is!

[XR Martin]

Id rather they kill the Falcon off and call it something else than turn it into a FWD/AWD car.

Ive said before, i think the base models will be FWD, and the upper spec and performance models will be AWD. There wont be a V8 as the drivetrain will be Eastwest.
Only engines will be the 3.7L N/A and Ecoboost.

[Rock ape]

I will never buy a fwd Falcon....................................

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by fmc351

As I said, I voted no, but that is just personal preference. I just qualified that remark, and vote.

In the end, Ford wont make a large car then. Ford wont pump money into further developing something simply for Aus unless it offers not simply a positive return, but the best return. If it has world appeal, then they will, its about best returns on the investment. Sure, if Ford is making a profit on a RWD Falcon in Aus, an argument can be made that its worth it, it has a positive return on investment. But when you consider in order to do that Ford has to pump funds in, those same funds could deliver a better return invested elsewhere. Ford, like all companies have limited resources, it may be a large resource, but it isnt endless.


To make it easier, lets say you have $100k, and you have a choice to earn a return on one investment of say 10%, or another investment with no more risk and get 25%. Which would you choose to pump your money into? Ford shareholders are no different.

Not in question. That is simple business economics.

It’s also still not the point.
The only question with a decision like this is will a global fwd platform sell in this country? The business case takes care of itself thereafter. In a global market bias is apportioned to demand and size.

If there is no demand, no global scale of economy will make the figures look better.
This decision will be simply do we wish to remain in this segment in this country?

Ford already competes in FWD markets and does rather poorly at it. Improved profitability through rationalising is a sound and well practised business. No one is arguing the business economics of global rationalisation.
An example is the retirement of the inline 6. Volume has dropped to the point where imports are more economically viable. The volume is now so low any argument to maintain local production would be doomed before a word was spoken. It’s all about numbers.

However


The direction is clear. Ford Australia is set to become a global team player in the Ford world. We aren't a large enough market to dictate terms. We are the toughest market in the world when it comes to buying habits and we have already been acknowledged as having a love affair with RWD that is possibly second to none in the developed world.

In this country it doesn't matter how much the rest of the world buys into the global fwd platform. That’s going to happen like it or not. It’s also not going to be competitive here. Not while Holden have a RWD platform. The key to such a switch is that they both go FWD. If everyone is front wheel drive, the market will have no choice. Give them a choice and you are committing suicide.

The only question the FMC have to contemplate is do we withdraw from the Australian market altogether and hand the large car segment to Holden in a similar way that Ford handed the lwb segment to Holden.

History and the numbers suggest that if Ford drop RWD from their global structure there won’t be a business case for the alternative. Just because it is global doesn't mean it will make a case for import and that will be the only issue here. The message will be for the last person at Ford to turn the lights out. Ford will withdraw from the Australian large car market. They won’t have a choice. The global business case would have decided against RWD and our state of mind will have decided against FWD. There is no alternative.

Economies of scale are generally well understood. Rationalisation is well understood. The need to remain in business and to make a profit is well understood.

You can’t achieve any of that unless you have a market for said product. It’s all very simple. If you don’t have a market for your product you generally don’t compete in it.

There is no point Ford even discussing this option. Harry saying we are still deciding and Bill saying things are on hold. The Falcon can be RWD AWD or FWD. Clearly it can’t.
People won’t buy it. If it doesn’t sell, you don’t make a profit. If you don’t make a profit you withdraw competition in it. The global FWD platform won’t exist in this country.

[Ghiadude]

Please tell me this is a horrible dream and ill wake up tomorrow and theyll have approved the next design and we can go back to bagging the crap out of holden.

I voted No - there should have been another option faaaarrk NO~!

[Auslandau]

Do you read what you write before pushing the button?????

Originally Posted by GTP290

Most people couldnt give a stuff about alloy front suspension parts and 5 star safety ratings, if it looks good theyll buy it.

Yep agree ..... Have a look at what Toyota are doing with there boring cars and how badly they are doing as everyone wants big rubber, nice rims, and a harder look? :

Originally Posted by GTP290

but its no good having all this technology and safety features if no one likes the look of the car because most people would buy a better looking car over a better product, thats the way it is!

The Corolla is such a great looking car ..... and the Camry! Total Porn! AND the Volvo! Always been regarded as the safest and ugliest so they must be cactus!

Its not Holden they should be looking as a role model in the car industry ....... its the boring daily drivers that make up over 90% of whats on the roads today .......



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[Daymoe]

If it MUST be FWD, kill it off and replace it with the Mondeo.

[XD 351 Ute]

I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that we may not even get the FG V6 Falcon scheduled for 2010......

If the FG isn't selling now, a whole new donk isn't going to make much difference, is it?

Ed

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by XD 351 Ute

I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that we may not even get the FG V6 Falcon scheduled for 2010......

If the FG isn't selling now, a whole new donk isn't going to make much difference, is it?

Ed

I think you will find that there will be a Falcon up till 2013.

They would have already spent a great deal of money engineering the V6.

It's the best selling Ford in this country, they really don't have choice.

[XR Martin]

I6 isnt emissions compliant post 2010 anyway i dont think.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by HSE2

If you don’t have a market for your product you generally don’t compete in it.....

.... The global FWD platform won’t exist in this country.

Thats exactly what Im saying, is there a large enough global market for a large RWD to make it attractive for Ford to retain it so we get one? I dont know the answer to that.

Chrysler, Nissan, Mitsu, all left our shores. Dont think Ford wont, they will if it comes to it.

[xr8ted]

There is no chance that I would but a FWD falcon...if this eventuates...looks like I might have to drive a holden (shock horror). Doesnt matter how good a FWD car is...it will never feel like a RWD car.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by fmc351

Thats exactly what Im saying, is there a large enough global market for a large RWD to make it attractive for Ford to retain it? I dont know the answer to that.

Chrysler, Nissan, Mitsu, all left our shores. Dont think Ford wont, they will if it comes to it.

Yes I know you are and I wasn't arguing against you either. The justification part will have no bearing on us or more correctly we won’t have a bearing on that decision.

The part that gets me is that Ford management are talking like they have a decision to make. That they actually think a FWD Falcon would sell when the mondeo doesn't and the Taurus didn't. What sort of logic or indicators they are looking at to derive at such a conclusion is beyond me.

The fact they seem to think it’s possible to call a large FWD product Falcon is yet another example that the ship has lost its rudder.

Is there a large enough market for RWD to be retained?

I would say obviously not. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by portraying one’s own business as indecisive and not having a clear direction or at least a direction that is known and understood. In our market, right now, that sort of talk is hugely damaging, in much the same way as the rumours hurt the 380.

It’s one thing to have lost the confidence of the public with the product but another to have lost it as a brand and company.

To be questioning this sort of direction that are saying that their core brands like Mustang and Crown and anything else with rear wheel drive is able to be changed to FWD without sizeable consumer backlash.

If anyone in the world can work out America and Americans, nah scratch that.

It remains a competitive market. I would have thought that if the competition is in a market with a certain product it would nearly mandate similar exposure.

What we are probably seeing is the death of the industry for enthusiasts and purists. Traditional cars that have character and soul will be of yesteryear leaving modes of transport devoid of emotion. Toyota leads the world in Tupperware. If you can't beat em join em.

All you can do is make you intentions clear.

Upon such revelation by Ford I will be on Holden's doorstep before the sentence is complete. Ford will never again be a consideration on my shopping list and for me it is that simple. The strength of that sentiment and its impact on Ford has to be driven by the US and the products that are under question on their side of the fence.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Is there a large enough market for RWD to be retained?

I would say obviously not.

Probably should have explained that better.

Rationalisation is about cost cutting and increasing profit per unit.

In terms of units sold that are currently RWD yes there is a market for that volume. Obviously Ford think they can do more with a front wheel drive platform in terms of flexibility and cost cutting than they can with RWD, all with minimal backlash from the consumer.

We are essentially talking about a type of consumer product that has values in driver enjoyment and dynamics.

Have we reached the point where these elements are no longer a consumer consideration or have been outweighed by the current climate and future forecast?

Is a front wheel drive Mustang acceptable to the Mustang consumer?

In answering that we have to keep in mind that our future is in the hands of people that still employ rigid rear ends.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by seduced_xr

we better start stocking up on FG/BF falcons and storing them :P. once they make FWD thatll be it.

Have you been to a dealer lately? They are so full its not funny, they're doing the stocking for us!!

Anywho

As for the quote of Commodore is doing soo much better:
Ford Falcon 3,123
Ford Falcon Ute 1,149
Ford Territory 933
= 5205 Units

Holden Caprice 89
Holden Commodore 4,462
Holden Statesman 187
Holden Utility 4X2 914
= 5652 Units

Not that much better. And 1400 units of commo sales is apparently the wagon. They are getting along with exports but the recent high aussie doller hurt them there. Like stated earlier there is a worldwide market for RWD cars, let us design the platform (we can build in small units with the Focus) let the yanks do theirs, share the cost and see if FoA can export to the middle east.

Seriously just finish the Falcon off if its going FWD. They have already tarnished the model with the V6 dont turn it into a Camry wanna be.

If this forum was about the time Ford dropped the V8 in the Falcon I reackon we would be getting alot of the same responses.

[Swordsman88]

HSE has made some very logical, and totally believable comments above. While Ford will no doubt develop a large FWD/AWD platform (Mondeo, taurus, volvo etc.) for the new generation cars to move to, the suggestion that falcon will be FWD is ridiculous. HSE and others have provided many reasons but allow me to provide my two cents (in point form).

1. There will be a GRWD platform. Don't know when, where developed, dimensions etc, but it is inevitable. Falcon, mustang, crown vic, large SUV, these cannot be on a FWD/AWD platform and wouldn't make economic sense anyway (it wouldn't be big enough). Crown Vic buyers alone (which is the size of fairlaine) demand that much.
2. If a FWD large platform were forced on ford aus, it would just be a mondeo, which they would call just that. Build it here or not, it aint going to be called falcon (marketers can tell you that much, too much backlash). The falcon name would be consigned to history.
3. RWD sells cars, well in australia anyway. Ford Aus will make the simple case that falcon needs to be on a GRWD not GFWD platform....top hat with common engines etc. Much better return on investment, since it will actually sell.
4. Falcon ute and territory are part of the whole equation, and contribute, as noted above, 2000-2500 sales a month....so you can make a case for australian made and designed cars off the GRWD, as long as the changes aren't too extensive and common parts are used with overseas models (suspension, architecture, engines, gearboxes etc.).

While you can't gurantee the falcon will be made in aus, or that it will even exist beyond 2013, if it does it WILL BE RWD! This is its purpose, and as HSE noted without RWD it would be masacred in the market place.

I think people interpret the comments made by CEOs (who are really just doing due diligence to the US shareholders by considering all options) far too literally. In the end the options would most likey be:

1. GRWD developed in aus off the current Falcon to suit a range of RWD/AWD vehicles, from sports to suv. Falcon build either here or US, but retains basic architecure we have now.
2. Ford Falcon, Mustang, Crown Vic and explorer/territory onto FWD taurus/mondeo/volvo platform. Falcon built wherever.....

Option 1 saves money on current development dollars but retains or improves sales. Optoin 2 saves even more money than option 1, but almost certainly results in significant drop in sales particularly for crown vic (middle east) and falcon (australia).

Put like that i reckon the choice comes down to how much you can save. Given the cheap as chips development budget ford aus works with i reckon they can do option 1 for pittance.....its just what we have now. I dont' see what all the fuss is about......

[steamin63]

i voted no for a very simple reason. ford is the only company that sells an inline 6, RWD, large car that i can afford to buy. BMW is the only manufacturer that sells a car that is comparable but look how much they cost.
as for the comparison between the falcon and the mondeo, how many of you people who keep making mention of the mondeo have actually driven one. i have driven 3 and i'm sorry but in my 'opinion' they don't compare to the FG. they are a very nice car but they are not a falcon [nor are they a mazda 6]. cheers.

[Serial_Fool]

Motoring post 2013 just got a whole lot dimmer....

Eventually we knew this was going to happen folks. This isn't the 70's where we can go off and design our own car without any signicant outside influence. The Americans set Ford AUS on a journey through an endless desert with the styling of the AU and are coming back with a shotgun to finish it off. Falcon will die at the hands of the people who gave birth to it...the Yanks.

Falcon goes FWD, I go Holden.

[schnoods]

I'll switch or look to earlier models before i even contemplate let alone buy a fwd falcon.

[dreadly]

This ^%$T enfuriates me! This argument could go on for ever...... The simple answer is we tell Detroit to %^&$ off! And do something about Ford Australia.... Becoming just that.
A publicly listed compant on the asx, and have 1/4, or 1/2 yearly share holders meetings. With a appointed board of directors, ceo, chairman etc.
Held accountable only by us the shareholders of Australia! We vote and have some sort of control of the shaping and guiding of the cars we want and need..... Not some greedy bunch of pricks from the states telling us what to do!

[CAT600]

Once again we have to endure another attack on Ford at the expense of the AU Falcon, Steve Butler- where are you?

[Jayden]

im not business minded. but I can see a dumb corporate decision a mile off. FWD falcon = abysmal failure, the sort of idea I wouldn't even raise in a board-room as a joke.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Yes I know you are and I wasn't arguing against you either. The justification part will have no bearing on us or more correctly we won’t have a bearing on that decision.

The part that gets me is that Ford management are talking like they have a decision to make.

Is there a large enough market for RWD to be retained?

Sorry, originally i thought you were suggesting Ford Aus had some say over the matter. My bad. Lets hope there is a market for RWD in the US and Canada, as thats what will save RWD.

[LTDterri]

I voted No, The thing I love most about Aussie large cars is the RWD..............might have to buy a dunnydore.....Just kidding

[whales]

If Falcon goes FWD perhaps Commodore will follow then everybody will have to buy BMW's or Mercs

[Martyvan]

If Falcon's efficient driveline could be implemented in the US, there would be no drama's... the Yanks have set some average fuel consumption goal across all vehicles they manufacture... so that effects their future product planning.

Imagine, a FWD mustang... Oh, i would be the first in the queue to buy one of them (*cough*)

To be honest, more fleets would probably buy a FWD falcon, given it would have potentially lower running costs, and a cheaper purchase price, as it would have a globally designed platform, which should end up with cheaper manufacturing? Falcon would sell more than commodore to fleets, and private buyers who only give a toss about fuel consumption, or perceived fuel consumption, and total overall cost.

Basically, they would just rebadge a Mondeo, and call it a Falcon!

I for 1 am not a fan of the Falcon going FWD, but if its inevitable, we should stock up on a few cars now, and bubble wrap them in storage.

From another perspective, at least the Territory would be a CX9/Craptiva Clone with an East-West engine...!

[xe351]

i havn't read all three pages but.....

If Ford have one brain cell in management they will kill the falcon before FWD. I would rather NO falcon, than a fwd flowercan, ford would become the laughing stock of australia.