Xa gt-ho

[BENT_8]

Look, don't get the wrong idea, im not trying to devalue in any way the history of these cars, as I believe they are all wonderful examples of an exciting time in our history, however, it throws up more questions than it answers.
And fair enough too, it was 40 odd years ago, and who would have thought a few letters on a piece of tin would be so revered.

[Stefan]

HO3 is talking about the few Phase 3 that had had the correct H engine code but in the plate stamping process it had simply been forgotten to add "HO" on the plate, due to error or what ever. So now you have a genuine "H" code GTHO, with all correct GTHO bits, sold by ford as a GTHO....

There is no grey area at all there are lots of stampings errors, lots of early XR GTs that are stamped JG 34, a few GTs stamped JG 34, GTHOs not stamped with the HO.

To a collector some may be worth less, but the piece of tin does not make the car.

I'm not 100% sure but my bet is that when cars were inspected for racing by CAMS no-one looked to see if it had HO stamped on the compliance plate. I'm sure the tag could read Falcon 500.

[pottery beige]

Yep, lame arguments

Up there with $3.99kg snags

All filler, no killer

[HO 3]

Yeah things seem to have gone a bit quiet, only a few crickets in the background..........love to here the grey area version about Allan Moffats 1969 Boss 302 Coca Cola Mustang starting life as a M code 351w car along with 6 others I think, before it's transformation into a G code Boss 302 race car after some severe fettling from Kar Kraft in the US.

Cheers Mick

[HO 3]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Well there is.
The XY raced under series production, so too was the XA when under development.
It is accepted that Moffats 71 car was one of the 300 GTHO's produced for homologation. So why could the 72 cars under series production, be plated as GT's yet raced under the guise of GTHO's.
If we accept that they continued racing P2 GTHO's until production of the 300 XY's begun, why didn't they have to wait until some of the plated XA's were available.

Obviously once the plate is affixed at the factory its identity is complete.
The only factory XA GTHO carries a tag which says GTHO, they were in production, why not utilise one.

The 3 XA race cars should never be considered as part of the homologation batch as the calypso car would have been.

Obviously the rules changed and they continued racing the XY under improved production so its irrelevant really.

People on here have said the XA racers were legitimate under the improved production rules, but this change occurred after the XA's had been picked as series production cars.

There may be a perfectly plausible answer, but for me it is a grey area when considered in the context of 'Factory GTHO race cars'

Would it be fair to call a GT with full fruit RPO83 a GTHO even though it doesn't carry the plate.
Is that not the same as a GT plated XY being considered a GTHO as you've mentioned above.

Ford Au were keen to shake the shackles of producing hundreds of stand alone homologation specials to satisfy CAMS and gave both the XY GT and XY GTHO the same model code making the HO an option rather than a stand alone model, does that blur the lines enough for you?........yes several XWs were converted to XY specs and raced as such.

Cheers Mick

[BENT_8]

Oops, nurse get me some morphine, I think I've hit a nerve...

Calm down boys, your legend is intact.

Im just stirring, its been a long time since we've had a good HO banter.

[zoesgift]

Originally Posted by castellan

It's not my opinion it's a fact the 3 were just GT they came with 12 slots the HO came with mags and a plate GT-HO end of story.

If you were to buy a XW -Y GT-HO the plate tells the story that it is what it is, no one is going to pay big $ for no plate.

And any road the race cars were modded far more than the Phase 4 like panhard rod on one some have 4 bolt mains Phase 4 does not.

And all the hoo ha about the RPO83 it's just a 780 Holley and extractors and the winged sumps well who knows, some have a bigger cam some say maybe dealer fitted to you know etc.

When looking at the Holden LH torana L34 joh blow could not buy them you had to have a cams licence to get them and they came with extras in the boot. so it most likely was just people in the know who bought the RPO83 as well i don't think joh blow turns up and here we go sump exh carb no way !

look you are entitled to your own opinion and I don't think there is any doubt that the reason for this thread is inflammatory hence the use of in your opening post. from previous posts you seem to have read many books/magazines about ford and its motors hence your previous threads and the interest you have in casting dates etc. im surprised about your reference to winged sumps in the rpo its extremely unlikely any rpos got these which if you are into amc you should be aware of. SOME of the people replying here have lived through the era owned and still own the cars and seen documented many of them in their unrestored state. I have not seen anything posted by you to indicate you have at least documented proof of some of your claims otherwise we will continue to dance around the same mulberry bush. your post should have been started in the muscle car boom in order for you to get the responses you wish for. back then there were many more people on aff willing to comment constructively and in many cases get actual answers....I think the true answers are what you are REALLY after but you like to stir the pot as a means of getting to them!

[castellan]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

how many genuine matching numbers GTs do you own

Non !

But my XA Hardtop fairmont was matching numbers 250 2V now with 351 C4 T bar as a GT but fact is it was a 250 it still had the 2.92 B/W someone may say it's a GT now and yes it is sort of but no it's not truley.

But hey if someone is happy to believe it's a GT good on them but the fact is it's not.

I should of sold it as a XA GT-HO someone would swallow it, but that is not only a lie but also unlawful.

No one could claim that the plated XA GT-HO is not a true GT-HO.

So i am talking about lawful facts not what people may want to believe.

And if you have a genuine XY GT-HO and the motor is not original etc she is not original but was and is in fact from factory but the engine could be just a std 302 now. so it is and was but is not the full real deal anymore. so one thing could be done is to do the engine up to GT-HO spec and then you have the real deal but not the original block. even if you had the original block and you put a 2V cam in it and 2V heads it's not correct and not the real deal.

I had a genuine LH SLR5000 650 DP Holley extractors extras but i sold it with a coarse spline diff so i would have to inform who bought it that it does not have the genuine fine spline diff anymore because the dude could come back claiming he was conned.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by zoesgift

look you are entitled to your own opinion and I don't think there is any doubt that the reason for this thread is inflammatory hence the use of in your opening post. from previous posts you seem to have read many books/magazines about ford and its motors hence your previous threads and the interest you have in casting dates etc. im surprised about your reference to winged sumps in the rpo its extremely unlikely any rpos got these which if you are into amc you should be aware of. SOME of the people replying here have lived through the era owned and still own the cars and seen documented many of them in their unrestored state. I have not seen anything posted by you to indicate you have at least documented proof of some of your claims otherwise we will continue to dance around the same mulberry bush. your post should have been started in the muscle car boom in order for you to get the responses you wish for. back then there were many more people on aff willing to comment constructively and in many cases get actual answers....I think the true answers are what you are REALLY after but you like to stir the pot as a means of getting to them!

The purpose is to debate.
If someone is serious they look into things in depth, now look at detective Lt Columbo he has to go through procedures to find out the truth the best he can. but some people have superficial interest and that's fine because most are like that.
But i am not superficial in my interest and search for the facts and truth and the fact is I never was ever superficial.
I love the 1969 to when perky won bathurst in the holden powered car but from then on i have no interest in what they were doing as to me that's got nothing to do with Fords and holdens at all so you can't debate because there is nothing to debate as they are not holdens and fords at all.
I loved them days going to the races and the passion that people had for the battle was fantastic you would see the fur fly waving their arms around jumping up and down swearing and abusing you because you were on the opposing team. it was great ! so i am only in my 50's bro and i know the cars when they were like new you know.

[Blue Roo]

[QUOTE=noflac52;5009802]It is all pretty straight forward really. The concept of the HO's was to win at Bathurst, and to be able to homologate any car for the series production race that Bathurst was, 300 needed to be built and sold as production cars. Everything else came after that concept so if there were no race cars there would be no HO's at all period!

Not quite true!
Ford was in the process of building the GTHO Phase 4's, when the program was cancelled. Even Howard Marsden laid claim to this. Ford was planning to build 200 Units (cars) over 2 months, June and July. And Ford had stockpiled the 200 homologated parts ready to go.
But, as history tell us. The Super Car Scare that happened at the end of June killed the program, and 20 plus Phase 4 car bodies were dumped and buried out at the Ford Proving Ground.
And if any Phase 4s made it down the Assemble Line. Some of the noticeable Phase 4 Parts would have been taken off and there Compliance Plate changed to a normal GT.

[zoesgift]

if ford say its a phase four then that's what it is......we should be happy that these 3 cars still exist let alone are in the hands of great custodians. for me personally I would have the low mile unrestored car that p c owns as I like the unrestored side of stuff. the issue of no compliance on these 2 red cars would not be an issue with me due to their well documented history.....with regards to matching numbers we all look for them, but there would not be too many race cars with their original motors in them. there are enough gt hos masquerading with their "original blocks".....x numbers anyone?!

[Burnout]

Originally Posted by HO 3

Yeah things seem to have gone a bit quiet, only a few crickets in the background..........love to here the grey area version about Allan Moffats 1969 Boss 302 Coca Cola Mustang starting life as a M code 351w car along with 6 others I think, before it's transformation into a G code Boss 302 race car after some severe fettling from Kar Kraft in the US.
Cheers Mick

[noflac52]

[QUOTE=Blue Roo;5010339]

Originally Posted by noflac52

It is all pretty straight forward really. The concept of the HO's was to win at Bathurst, and to be able to homologate any car for the series production race that Bathurst was, 300 needed to be built and sold as production cars. Everything else came after that concept so if there were no race cars there would be no HO's at all period!

Not quite true!
Ford was in the process of building the GTHO Phase 4's, when the program was cancelled. Even Howard Marsden laid claim to this. Ford was planning to build 200 Units (cars) over 2 months, June and July. And Ford had stockpiled the 200 homologated parts ready to go.
But, as history tell us. The Super Car Scare that happened at the end of June killed the program, and 20 plus Phase 4 car bodies were dumped and buried out at the Ford Proving Ground.
And if any Phase 4s made it down the Assemble Line. Some of the noticeable Phase 4 Parts would have been taken off and there Compliance Plate changed to a normal GT.

What you say is correct but I'm not quite sure of the point that you are trying to make here!

None of that changes the fact that the concept of the HO winning at Bathurst inspired the first xw HO's to be built and if that didn't happen PH2, 3 and four would probably never have existed at all. The concept and the race cars came first and everything that happened after that is now history. How can the race cars be just GT's when they are the whole reason for HO"s existing at all.

[Blue Roo]

[QUOTE=noflac52;5010545]

Originally Posted by Blue Roo

What you say is correct but I'm not quite sure of the point that you are trying to make here!

None of that changes the fact that the concept of the HO winning at Bathurst inspired the first xw HO's to be built and if that didn't happen PH2, 3 and four would probably never have existed at all. The concept and the race cars came first and everything that happened after that is now history. How can the race cars be just GT's when they are the whole reason for HO"s existing at all.

Not really making a point. Just adding on to what you have said.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by castellan

Non !

But my XA Hardtop fairmont was matching numbers 250 2V now with 351 C4 T bar as a GT but fact is it was a 250 it still had the 2.92 B/W someone may say it's a GT now and yes it is sort of but no it's not truley.

But hey if someone is happy to believe it's a GT good on them but the fact is it's not.

I should of sold it as a XA GT-HO someone would swallow it, but that is not only a lie but also unlawful.

No one could claim that the plated XA GT-HO is not a true GT-HO.

So i am talking about lawful facts not what people may want to believe.

And if you have a genuine XY GT-HO and the motor is not original etc she is not original but was and is in fact from factory but the engine could be just a std 302 now. so it is and was but is not the full real deal anymore. so one thing could be done is to do the engine up to GT-HO spec and then you have the real deal but not the original block. even if you had the original block and you put a 2V cam in it and 2V heads it's not correct and not the real deal.

I had a genuine LH SLR5000 650 DP Holley extractors extras but i sold it with a coarse spline diff so i would have to inform who bought it that it does not have the genuine fine spline diff anymore because the dude could come back claiming he was conned.

well youve lost me with that little rant

put the ******* crack pipe away stat

[HP-0351]

Originally Posted by bigwil

Agree 100% Roy did a brillant job with all the research and tracing all the previous owners on the only plated XAGTHO. So good I bought 5 copies of each issue of street fords that contained the Phase 4.

Cheers

[HP-0351]

Originally Posted by stefan

i reckon it might look like this if you do

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfqz1zgvnhc

lol

[HP-0351]

Originally Posted by Blue Roo

What we need is to get the Legendary 4V man and the Editor of Street Fords Roy Velardi together on this subject.

I have had many a 'discussion' about the XAGTHO Phase IV here with 4V man. He has made a few claims, one of which is that he knew a guy that was there when the sole production car rolled down the line.

See here http://fordforums.com.au/showthread....fords+xa+gt+ho

Naturally when he mentioned this YEARS ago I was interested in chatting to this person in order to verify the process and to ask questions about the Calypso Green car.

I'm still waiting but I don't think it will ever happen (and I'm not phased about it at all) because the person probably doesn't exist...however the sole production Calypso Green XAGTHO Phase IV does exist and so does the tooth fairy - 'The Dentist'

[RedHotGT]

Originally Posted by castellan

I have to only gen Phase 5 XB GT-HO Hardtop ?

You mean these ones??



This subject always intrigues me... The facts are the facts, and they've been documented and brought up so many times it is actually hard to believe....

What about the 'Phantom' GT-HO cars that Ford produced? Cars that rolled down the production line, have compliance plates and 54H body, everything checks out, and yet Ford themselves have no record what so ever of the cars being produced? I suppose they are not 'original' or 'genuine' even though they certainly exist.

What about the export cars like the South African XY GT-HO Phase III (yes I said GT-HO not GT... If you don't know about it then do some more homework) they are as 'original' and 'genuine' as all the others.

How about Bill Bourke's one-off masterpieces (XR, XT, XW) ?? Or his Australian Delivered Mustang Fastback GT that nobody knows about?? Or Wayne Drapers big block coupes?? The list goes on.

There were lots of examples of unusual cars that left the factory, lot 6, and other 'sections' of Ford.... some were more official than others...

And this is where provable history is paramount when people make claims to the origin of vehicles.

In any case, the discussion lives on and I'm sure we'll be here again some time soon..........

[zoesgift]

nice pics but I thought the thread was about the "validity" of the 3 non complianced xa prototypes and whether they should be considered phase fours....

[castellan]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

well youve lost me with that little rant

put the ******* crack pipe away stat

I thought you would understand that a car has to be what it is, not what someone made it into, to be the real deal.
I don't give a toss about the, because it's now 40 years ago makes it any different. it's about what it was new.

When i sold my genuine SLR5000 it was genuine but for the diff as it did not have fine spline as it should because i changed it when it as i snapped an axle. the dude that has it now must put a fine spline back in to sell it as a genuine real deal.
For people who do not know the difference the diff i am referring to now in it is rubbish, you must understand that ? the original fine spline is better. and you don't run a banjo coarse spline behind a 308 4 sp if you can, it's just not the thing to do as it's to weak and it's an evil thing to do. (wrong)
You know when i sold it they got a dude to come in the next day to make sure it was what it was or they would not pay up the big dollars you know. do you understand now.

If you ever worked for yourself running a legitimate business you may understand the workings of the Law. you have to deal with facts or if you play games spinning **** the cops come looking for you and your pipe.
People can buy anything. but and i say but if you say it's genuine and sell it as genuine that's fraud bro ! and you go to jail.

No one can say them 3 are genuine phase 4 XA GT-HO they are racing cars they were XA GT when they left the factory.
There was only one XA GT-HO that left the factory end of story.

[Bossxr8]

The factory built them to ph4 specs, with the idea of racing them as ph4's. They obviously had no time to wait until the factory was building them so they made their own.

Make's it a ph 4 in my eyes.

[GTPete]

I think your confusing the meaning of the words genuine and original. Both words are used loosely when it comes to talk about GT Falcons but both have distinctly different meanings.
Your SLR may not have been original with its fine spline rear axle but it was genuine.

The Phase 4's that were destined for the track were genuine Ph4 Falcons the green car is also a genuine Ph4 in original condition.

[pottery beige]

[pottery beige]

old mates cooked

[blackwasp]

Originally Posted by GTPete

I think your confusing the meaning of the words genuine and original. Both words are used loosely when it comes to talk about GT Falcons but both have distinctly different meanings.
Your SLR may not have been original with its fine spline rear axle but it was genuine.

The Phase 4's that were destined for the track were genuine Ph4 Falcons the green car is also a genuine Ph4 in original condition.

sorry mate but you're confused ,the calypso has been painted atleast twice if not more and recently fully restored. how can you say it's original. it certainly is genuine but original it is not!

[mik]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

image

i remember having 2 mags with that pic, one was sports car world year edition , had a write up iirc on PH 4, i can't remember the other,
note to self ..........dont lend precious magazines ......you never see them again :(.

All this talk of winged sumps and Falcon GT's and hoeys gets the juices going.

[GTPete]

Originally Posted by blackwasp

sorry mate but you're confused ,the calypso has been painted atleast twice if not more and recently fully restored. how can you say it's original. it certainly is genuine but original it is not!

To clarify I was on about the period when the cars were made.
And agree 100% about the fact the green car has been restored and can no longer be classed as original.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by GTPete

I think your confusing the meaning of the words genuine and original. Both words are used loosely when it comes to talk about GT Falcons but both have distinctly different meanings.
Your SLR may not have been original with its fine spline rear axle but it was genuine.

The Phase 4's that were destined for the track were genuine Ph4 Falcons the green car is also a genuine Ph4 in original condition.

Originally the 3 cars were GT then made in to race cars not Phase 4 at all as they are a bit more than just a phase 4.

It's like the Bathurst Monaro that people think is true but the fact is there is no Bathurst monaros ever made by holden ever. only the cars raced at bathurst could be called such in a way.
Bathurst Torana

People get upset but the truth is sometimes hard to swallow and this is the place to debate i would think. some want to fuss and fight but sometimes people like GTPete come along and put light on it. i don't mind the fussing and fighting so much as it shows passion

[MercurySilver]

im struggling to actually understand some of the english in the posts!