anyone running AU 5litre's carbied?

[philstoj]

You would be surprised how well a late model ford windsor efi would run with a good carby and intake, and also the power increase.

The biggest benefit with efi is the fact that you dont have to do any tuning, the comp does it for you for a whole wide range of conditions, where as a carby you would have to re-jet etc for deifferent conditions.

I reckon if i got rid of the efi on my XR8, and swapped it for a victor jnr intake, and a nice 650 demon or the like, there would be almost 50hp power increase over efi, and i dare say it would be better everywhere.

Though this whole exercise is illegal so im not condoning it, though the thought of doing it has crossed my mind, though it wouldnt be for a registered street car.

[RG]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

and the tooth fairy , easter bunny & santa are real too. all things being equal ( important to remember that point) the modern engine will flog the carby engine . put up a pourpose built fire breather against a stock EFI sure the fire breather will win . but pourpose build an EFI firebreather and hold on. problem is we still have too many technophobes around. the man who pulls off a good functioning EFI system on a modern car and replaces it with carby and dizzy is a fool . sorry to be blunt but it needs to be said

You are right it does need to be said. Old School is Old School and does have it's place, in Old School cars. EFI in an XY GT is wrong, same as a carb on an AU is wrong.

Next we'll hear how someones mate has thrown a carb on a BOSS engine and gained 400rwkw and is getting economy of 7l/100k.

[FGII-XR6]

you just don't get it do you I said "all things being equal" you are comparing a performance carb and manifold setup to a standard EFI . you go for a performance manifold big injectors and an edit and you will still kill the carb . your comparison is like saying a typhoon is quicker than an XF falcon . sure it is but you're comparing totally different situation . we need apples wit apples comparisons not your apples with oranges comparison

Originally Posted by philstoj

You would be surprised how well a late model ford windsor efi would run with a good carby and intake, and also the power increase.

The biggest benefit with efi is the fact that you dont have to do any tuning, the comp does it for you for a whole wide range of conditions, where as a carby you would have to re-jet etc for deifferent conditions.

I reckon if i got rid of the efi on my XR8, and swapped it for a victor jnr intake, and a nice 650 demon or the like, there would be almost 50hp power increase over efi, and i dare say it would be better everywhere.

[SVTVNM]

Originally Posted by Russell

You are right it does need to be said. Old School is Old School and does have it's place, in Old School cars. EFI in an XY GT is wrong, same as a carb on an AU is wrong.

Next we'll hear how someones mate has thrown a carb on a BOSS engine and gained 400rwkw and is getting economy of 7l/100k.

On that topic I had an article in a Mustang mag were a company in the U.S.A. has made carby manifolds for the 32 valve modular V8 used in the mustangs, and they were geting better power when correctly tuned than the same engine in EFI trim.

[RG]

Originally Posted by SVTVNM

On that topic I had an article in a Mustang mag were a company in the U.S.A. has made carby manifolds for the 32 valve modular V8 used in the mustangs, and they were geting better power when correctly tuned than the same engine in EFI trim.

But what was economy and driveability like and where was it making more power, just peak or throughout the entire rev range.

[philstoj]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

you just don't get it do you I said "all things being equal" you are comparing a performance carb and manifold setup to a standard EFI . you go for a performance manifold big injectors and an edit and you will still kill the carb . your comparison is like saying a typhoon is quicker than an XF falcon . sure it is but you're comparing totally different situation . we need apples wit apples comparisons not your apples with oranges comparison

I get it very much, and i dont need you to point it out to me either, as ive been around them for a long time and seen benefits to both setups for their chosen application...

As i said you would be surprised how well you can get them to work, they have also benefited from new technology....

Though i would not do this to an AU for street duty, i certainly would for a weekend strip and track car.

As for the comparison you gave, thats just absolutly rediculous!!

As if you would compare a stromberg to a motec...

I think some of you guys should stop being so ....

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by philstoj

As for the comparison you gave, thats just absolutly rediculous!!

As if you would compare a stromberg to a motec...

I think some of you guys should stop being so ....

as was you comparison I deliberatly chose a stupid comparison to match yours. you were trying to compare a stack item to a high performance setup just as i did doing that and being serious is just plain stupid my comparison was in jest to point this out

[FS5]

has anyone run a carby on a 5l au ,like he asked in the first place???
while where on the topic has anyone tried a carby on the 4lt 6,other than speedway cars?
sorry to hijack your thread mate.

[howesy]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

and the tooth fairy , easter bunny & santa are real too. all things being equal ( important to remember that point) the modern engine will flog the carby engine . put up a pourpose built fire breather against a stock EFI sure the fire breather will win . but pourpose build an EFI firebreather and hold on. problem is we still have too many technophobes around. the man who pulls off a good functioning EFI system on a modern car and replaces it with carby and dizzy is a fool . sorry to be blunt but it needs to be said

Well this is what the as it was put fire breather was -:
"straight LPG with a big gas cam ,regraphed dizzy and big carb and twin converters and finely done gas heads. It still complied with current emissions with lean mixture when checked"

And yeah it was purpose built but wasn't the EFI motor purpose built for EFI (heads , compression, cam, ign etc)So we can only bolt on a 2 barrel carter if we want to compare. They are 2 totally different beasts but the fact is cars went carby for emmissions compliance. You can always get more power more cheaply out of carby setups but getting it to balance with economy and emissions is extremely difficult unless you go to an alternate fuel such as LPG when even in modified state running costs are lower and emissions are as good if not better than EFI.
Having said all that I'm driving an EFI but being older I still love the carbs. Trouble is too many people people dont set them up correctly.
And after all that get caught and get caned. Keep your EFI setup to fit for resale and dont forget you need to change the fuel system from 40psi down to about 5psi

[5.0 ED]

oh my such the contravesy, why is it a little comment is taking so much further in these threads, i said if i spend 4k on the efi system if wouldn't increase my resale value, i never said i plan to sell the car, now would i with a carby on it, when sale time comes it'll be returned back to standard.

And yet a lot of people keep coming up with efi's having more power, and this is simply not proven, all things being equal your best comparison between the 2 is to go off the fuel injection setups that go onto a carby manifold, and then tune correctly with both, and no im not talking about an efi carb, i mean direct port injection. And then the results could be seen, and the funny thing is that it has actually been done many times before by a lot of people and every one of them ended up going back to carb because for what ever reason it gave better results to there suited purpose.

Oh and sox that XW idles at 800rpm.

I have infact put a carby on an EL v8 before, i took off the EFI system and put on a 650dp and powerplus hurricane, on the dyno it made an extra 18kw's, apart from a dizzy as well nothing else was changed, driving wise it was more responsive, it had a very far improved, launch and bottom end touque. But all being fair the efi system was standard, it hadn't had a tune or anything done which would have even'd up the results.

I dont and never have had plan's of leaving a carby on my au, im building an 1967 XR, and the cam and other mod's in my engine are planned to actually go into the 347 i'm building for that, and at which point i will put the AU back to original, apart from exhaust and a high flow intake.

Also i wouldn't class the windsor as a modern engine, they just put fuel injection on it, apart from slightly different heads and a roller cam there the same.

Anyway how about someone just closes this thread, since obviously my original question has been answered that no, nobody has done it.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by 5.0whiteaughia

oh my such the contravesy, why is it a little comment is taking so much further in these threads,

Probably because it is a controversial subject. What's wrong with healthy discussion about a controversial subject?

i said if i spend 4k on the efi system if wouldn't increase my resale value,

But that's just it, you WOULD increase the value of the car, not by 4k, but by some amount. No mods EVER increase the value of a car by the mod value, but they do increase it by a certain amount if it's a worthy and legal mod.
IMO, carbs don't fit into that category on an AU.

i never said i plan to sell the car,

Why did you mention resale value then?

now would i with a carby on it, when sale time comes it'll be returned back to standard.

Ok, so why can't you return it back to stock with the 4k EFI system, and then re-coup more of your money by selling it separately.

And yet a lot of people keep coming up with efi's having more power, and this is simply not proven,

Of course it's proven. Why do F1 cars use EFI? GP bikes, V8 supercars, Superbikes? The list is endless, your argument has no proof of anything, except a couple of apples to oranges comparisons.

all things being equal your best comparison between the 2 is to go off the fuel injection setups that go onto a carby manifold, and then tune correctly with both, and no im not talking about an efi carb, i mean direct port injection. And then the results could be seen, and the funny thing is that it has actually been done many times before by a lot of people and every one of them ended up going back to carb because for what ever reason it gave better results to there suited purpose.

What a load of bollocks. Provide some real evidence to this.

Oh and sox that XW idles at 800rpm.

Nothing wrong with that at all.
However, I still maintain that a properly executed and tuned EFI system would outperform your mates carbed XW in several areas, albeit, at a higher cost.

I have infact put a carby on an EL v8 before, i took off the EFI system and put on a 650dp and powerplus hurricane, on the dyno it made an extra 18kw's, apart from a dizzy as well nothing else was changed, driving wise it was more responsive, it had a very far improved, launch and bottom end touque. But all being fair the efi system was standard, it hadn't had a tune or anything done which would have even'd up the results.

Yep, and that's the clincher the TUNE.
Aside from that though, you're comparing apples to oranges again. You're comparing a standard EFI system to a very good carb/manifold set-up. Now if you had of compared an EQUIVALENT EFI system, we would then be back to apples VS apples, and you would have appreciated the improved performance of the EFI system.

I dont and never have had plan's of leaving a carby on my au, im building an 1967 XR, and the cam and other mod's in my engine are planned to actually go into the 347 i'm building for that, and at which point i will put the AU back to original, apart from exhaust and a high flow intake.

Fair enough.

Also i wouldn't class the windsor as a modern engine, they just put fuel injection on it, apart from slightly different heads and a roller cam there the same.

Nor would I. It doesn't matter though, ALL engines improve with EFI, even ones made when dinosaurs roamed the planet.

Anyway how about someone just closes this thread, since obviously my original question has been answered that no, nobody has done it.

Why close it, it's an interesting discussion.

Rick.

[naughtyfalcon]

this has been a good thread to read with all the fors and negs for the original question.

the fact still remains that you can not legally run a street driven vehicle with a carburettor if it was manufactured with EFI from the factory.

no ifs ands or buts about it.

but still been a good read.

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by howesy

Well this is what the as it was put fire breather was -:
"straight LPG with a big gas cam ,regraphed dizzy and big carb and twin converters and finely done gas heads. It still complied with current emissions with lean mixture when checked"

And yeah it was purpose built but wasn't the EFI motor purpose built for EFI (heads , compression, cam, ign etc)So we can only bolt on a 2 barrel carter if we want to compare. They are 2 totally different beasts but the fact is cars went carby for emmissions compliance. You can always get more power more cheaply out of carby setups but getting it to balance with economy and emissions is extremely difficult unless you go to an alternate fuel such as LPG when even in modified state running costs are lower and emissions are as good if not better than EFI.
Having said all that I'm driving an EFI but being older I still love the carbs. Trouble is too many people people dont set them up correctly.
And after all that get caught and get caned. Keep your EFI setup to fit for resale and dont forget you need to change the fuel system from 40psi down to about 5psi

we are talking carby against EFI now you throw a twin convertor gas system into the mix again not a valid comparison. LPG mixer ring setups are all basically a carby principal on the EFI manifold . A mixer ring will always be down on the standard EFI due to the restriction of the venturi . using a carby on a dedicated gas setup would not be an issue but it really is not a carby just a glorified throtle body the convertor and mixer ring provide the gas metering not the carby . in this situation all carby fuel delivery functions become redundant

[5.0 ED]

I mention resale value because if i put a flash tuner and did all that then there would be no point taking it off to put on a 67 falcon now would there, anyway get a life, obviously you have nothing better to do than try and argue points that you cant back up with proof anyway, what are you 16?

[StealthAu]

Originally Posted by 5.0whiteaughia

I mention resale value because if i put a flash tuner and did all that then there would be no point taking it off to put on a 67 falcon now would there, anyway get a life, obviously you have nothing better to do than try and argue points that you cant back up with proof anyway, what are you 16?

I was actually thinking the same thing.....but about yourself.
A carby is mechanical, EFI is controlled by a computer
With an ecu there are multiple mapping points, fuel slope and so forth, meaning air fule ratio's can be set at different points at multiple throttle positions where as carbys don't have these advantages.
With the sensors in an Efi car, the computer can adjust fuel and timing while your driving to suit conditions (crap fuel, air temp...) not an option with carbys.
I could go on, but really I'm just wasting my time aren't I?

[private9]

Originally Posted by 5.0whiteaughia

I mention resale value because if i put a flash tuner and did all that then there would be no point taking it off to put on a 67 falcon now would there, anyway get a life, obviously you have nothing better to do than try and argue points that you cant back up with proof anyway, what are you 16?

There's been some great discussion here mate, and neither sox or any other person involved in the discussion seem to be having a direct go at you, so no need to get upset and make silly comments like above.

[naughtyfalcon]

this is getting to the point of being ridiculous and useless.

theres no need for name calling or derogatory remarks as has been seen in another thread,if this is to remain open please keep the personal stuff to your self.

and no offence to anyone or anybody.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by 5.0whiteaughia

I mention resale value because if i put a flash tuner and did all that then there would be no point taking it off to put on a 67 falcon now would there,

Well, that would depend on what you're trying to achieve I guess. Your AU would be pretty nice with it, and so would your 67 Falcon. As I said, I think EFI suits anything and everything.

anyway get a life, obviously you have nothing better to do than try and argue points that you cant back up with proof anyway, what are you 16?

I would really like to think that those comments aren't directed at me, as I have been nothing but kind to you, merely asking for some evidence to support your claims.

Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean you have to carry on like a pork chop.

BTW, I'm a touch older than 16.

Edit: Actually, if I knew at 16 what I know now, man life could have been easier......

Rick.

[b2tf]

There's good debate in here and a lot of good points but let's not get snippy or the thread will end up canned.

[5.0 ED]

b2tf - well there is a debate of no evidence proving going on and its a waste of time that someone thinks one and someone thinks this.

And yes sox that was directed at you cause your trying to pick the noise out of everything that is said purely for argument sake, like the whole resale value, at no point did i ever say it was a permanent thing, and none of your comments have evidence just are purely what you think. The problem is there isn't any real evidence for us is there, lets take examples here like the 250 cross flow, the carby motor had 150hp, the fuel injection had 170, but the fuel injection one had a much higher CFM flow rating throttle body setup, the intake manifold had longer runners to produce more torque, and they had a different cam, and head. Put the efi cam in the none efi version and they do improve a lot, but really how can anything be proven as apples for apples, when there is no apples for apples case. carbied XF's have been known to get 600km's to a tank, yet so do the efi version, yet you could urgue that the efi system was poor had no oxygen sensor or anything, but the carby system was pretty ordinary too.

So no one can say a carby will make more power than a fuel injection setup or visa versa because we have no proof, my whole comments have been based around me putting on a hurricane inlet with a speed demon, over getting a flash tune and maf etc, when obviously the carby setup is going to make more power because it is a total higher flowing setup.

To which point the whole thread is pointless and rediculous and is going no where and really should be just closed unless someone has the ability to compare complete apples to apples and publish proven results, which is very time consuming and can be rather costly.

[StealthAu]

Regardless of which setup is better, the real question is what is the cheapest possible option, would it even be possible to convert an automatic AU to carb and distributor setup? What would be involved in getting the ECU to still control the trans but not fuel and spark, or would the use of say an e-series tcu be required. Also doing this would also result in the smartshield being disabled wouldn't it?
I'm asking the quoestions because I don't know, what would be lost (other then power economy and such) with such a setup?

[Jorgo85]

Drop the BTR and slot in a C4......... :gren:

giggle

[Sox]

Originally Posted by 5.0whiteaughia

b2tf - well there is a debate of no evidence proving going on and its a waste of time that someone thinks one and someone thinks this.

Wrong.
The evidence is everywhere as I said in previous posts. EFI is on virtually every vehicle made, on virtually all race vehicles. What more do you want?
Are you really that silly to think that if carburettors had better performance, that they would be in wider use? Give me a break....

And yes sox that was directed at you cause your trying to pick the noise out of everything that is said purely for argument sake,

Utter nonsense, I'm being as rational to your silly ideas as possible, but your thinking is not rational.
I've given credit where credit is due to many of the points you've made, and I've also challenged many of the points. Like it or lump it, if you don't want opinion, don't ask.

like the whole resale value, at no point did i ever say it was a permanent thing,

The resale thing was brought up by yourself. Not up until post #40 did you claim that it's for another project. Your first few posts gave us no indication that it was for another vehicle. Quite the contrary as you brought up the resale value comment, which we could then only assume that it may be for the long term.
Don't start twisting this to suit yourself.

and none of your comments have evidence just are purely what you think. The problem is there isn't any real evidence for us is there, lets take examples here like the 250 cross flow, the carby motor had 150hp, the fuel injection had 170, but the fuel injection one had a much higher CFM flow rating throttle body setup, the intake manifold had longer runners to produce more torque, and they had a different cam, and head. Put the efi cam in the none efi version and they do improve a lot, but really how can anything be proven as apples for apples, when there is no apples for apples case. carbied XF's have been known to get 600km's to a tank, yet so do the efi version, yet you could urgue that the efi system was poor had no oxygen sensor or anything, but the carby system was pretty ordinary too.

Sure, once again, none of these are apples to apples comparisons.
But ask yourself, all things being equal, why would a mechanical carb be better performing than EFI? Think about this slowly and logically. Think about the mechanics of both systems.
A carb system can never ever match an equivalent EFI system for OVERALL performance. NEVER.

So no one can say a carby will make more power than a fuel injection setup or visa versa because we have no proof, my whole comments have been based around me putting on a hurricane inlet with a speed demon, over getting a flash tune and maf etc, when obviously the carby setup is going to make more power because it is a total higher flowing setup.

It will produce more peak power, if the overall flow is superior, however it will still lack some fundamental benefits which EFI has over and above a carb everytime.

To which point the whole thread is pointless and rediculous and is going no where and really should be just closed unless someone has the ability to compare complete apples to apples and publish proven results, which is very time consuming and can be rather costly.

The onus is on you to provide evidence to us, you're the one making the claims contrary to popular knowledge. The majority here know full well which is the overall better performing system. It's common knowledge.

You provide the (real) proof for your claim to the contrary.

Rick.

[5.0 ED]

With an AU auto you can remove the distributor and all injectors, put a dissy in, bolt a carb on and the only thing you have to do is put on a correct TPS signal for the auto to function, because all basic ecu functions are still there, the crank signal still gives the ecu its rev count and so on.

[5.0 ED]

Now Sox i have never said a carby produces more power or anything i have just said that there not as bad as your saying, and that there is no evidence presented before me that an efi system will make more power and give me better fuel economy to make its extra cost of keeping it on the car. Now you have made many claims of more power, better economy and so on, yet you have absolutely no proof to back it up.

Your racing cars with efi, well there is just as many if not more in fact running carbs, and if you think your efi setup has anything even close to being similar to what is run on most race cars, then your really kidding yourself. Plus once again not to mention the amount of $$$$ spent on research and tuning and so on with these race car systems, that none of us im sure could afford.

As for factory cars with carbs im yet to see one that has been any good, and agree totally with new cars being fuel injected, i have also said that i would prefer to keep the efi system with a flash tune but there is no way i could justify spending that much money on my beat up old AU, If my car was in the condition of many other members cars on here than yes it would a different senario. Basic's of the situation are i have a car running like crap, i don't want to spend any money on it, all the problems are injection related, and i have a carb manifold at my disposal, if someone has actually put a carb setup on an AU i would like to know, i want to know if you only got 300km's a tank, or if it ran like crap, or maybe you had really good results, the thing i question is that with a carb on an AU your rpm at 100km's is 1800 and i do think that it may be a little low for sufficient air speed for a carb to tune well. But unlike you I don't know, i dont and never have claimed to know all i have said is that you dont know.

I want answer to it from someone who does know and that does not mean you; cause you have not done it. So unless you have done it then you have no proof that on an AU, putting a carb and manifold like i mention will kill the economy and apparently according to you kill the performance.

[xr8ute]

Dude, you are talking about a running a carb on a 302w...not exactly a ground breaking idea.

If you want to do it, then do it.

[5.0 ED]

Tis true, but it is a bit of a hassle, and i do have to modify some things, change some wires and so on, adapt a tps to fit, so as i said i just wanted to see if anyone had bothed doing it before. And I will do it and see, but has to wait now, got to many other things to do at the moment.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by 5.0whiteaughia

Now Sox i have never said a carby produces more power or anything i have just said that there not as bad as your saying,

And just exactly how bad did I say they were? Don't put words in my mouth, I said many times that carbs can work very very well indeed. However EFI always works better, all things being equal.

and that there is no evidence presented before me that an efi system will make more power and give me better fuel economy to make its extra cost of keeping it on the car. Now you have made many claims of more power, better economy and so on, yet you have absolutely no proof to back it up.

Once again, take a look around.

Your racing cars with efi, well there is just as many if not more in fact running carbs,

In F1?
Moto GP?
V8 supercars?
Superbikes?
Top fuel?

These racing classes are the pinnacle of engineering. Where are the carburettors?

and if you think your efi setup has anything even close to being similar to what is run on most race cars, then your really kidding yourself.

Where did I say that? Why would I think that my EFI system is anything like any elite racing class?
I know most road cars have the basic of basic systems, yet they still perform admirably.

Plus once again not to mention the amount of $$$$ spent on research and tuning and so on with these race car systems, that none of us im sure could afford.

And, what's your point? It doesn't matter the cost here, I want to see where the carburettors are used in these classes, as by your definition EFI is of no advantage.

As for factory cars with carbs im yet to see one that has been any good, and agree totally with new cars being fuel injected, i have also said that i would prefer to keep the efi system with a flash tune but there is no way i could justify spending that much money on my beat up old AU, If my car was in the condition of many other members cars on here than yes it would a different senario. Basic's of the situation are i have a car running like crap, i don't want to spend any money on it, all the problems are injection related, and i have a carb manifold at my disposal,

And that's all fair enough my friend, I never once disputed that. What I did and am still disputing are your claims that EFI is not the ants pants.

if someone has actually put a carb setup on an AU i would like to know, i want to know if you only got 300km's a tank, or if it ran like crap, or maybe you had really good results, the thing i question is that with a carb on an AU your rpm at 100km's is 1800 and i do think that it may be a little low for sufficient air speed for a carb to tune well. But unlike you I don't know, i dont and never have claimed to know all i have said is that you dont know.

And you'd be right, I don't know exactly. But I have a very good idea from past experience with many different vehicles. It ain't rocket science.
Yes it will run. Yes it is capable of running very well. Yes it may even outperform the current EFI system in some areas.
But, as an overall superior system, EFI will always have the upper hand.

I want answer to it from someone who does know and that does not mean you; cause you have not done it. So unless you have done it then you have no proof that on an AU, putting a carb and manifold like i mention will kill the economy and apparently according to you kill the performance.

Nope, I never once said that it will kill anything at all. Though I did say that economy will be worse, and driveability will not be as good.

Don't take my words out of context.

Rick.

[5.0 ED]

Mate you've been taking my words out of context the whole time

[70caprigt3k]

I have defineately considered ditching my efi setup (and still might) in favour of a demon and a vic jr. since there would be some pretty nice gains to be had all round and it would be unique. It would be much easier to get running in a manual than it would in an auto though.