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Old 02-06-2008, 01:19 PM   #31
aussiblue
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and http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4087
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Old 02-06-2008, 02:14 PM   #32
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All I can tell you is this.......
My setup uses about 10 amps, about as much as a 120watt driving light.
YES, it takes petrol, engine power, to produce that 120watts, but the return in combustion efficiency is MANY FOLD.
I'm not suggesting that everyone will get 40% improvement like I did, but wouldn't you be happy with 10 or 20% in your pocket??
My system uses about 250ml of water for 856 km, the distance I was testing it, to my girlfriends house.
I just top it off with a cup of water for the return trip.
The electrolyte eventually "thins" so it should be replaced down the line.
Long term?? I'm not sure how long the S/S plates will last.
The guts of the cell will eventually have to be replaced.
But then so does your battery and your tyres, huh?
As long as the correct grade of S/S is used, and the plates passivated and conditioned correctly, I am guessing at maybe 2 or 3 years, maybe more.

My experiments continue......

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Old 04-06-2008, 04:07 PM   #33
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http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...25/143869.html

hmmmm :

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Old 04-06-2008, 04:42 PM   #34
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At the moment this is the only thing i'd like to try that involves water....

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html
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Old 04-06-2008, 07:57 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by snap
runyourcarwithwater.com What do you think about this?
Isn't it just an imitation of hydrogen boosted gasoline engine? As far as I understand a small amount of hydrogen is generated on board by splitting water or gasoline. The gas produced is added to the fuel mixture, which is claimed to improve combustion efficiency and allows to run the engine on extra lean mixture. It all sounds too good to be true but here is an article:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/how-a-...gine-works.htm
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Old 04-06-2008, 08:32 PM   #36
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Electrolysis is a well documented process known to most high school graduates. A simple act of applying electricity to submerged electrodes in a water solution, with or without a catalyst, bringing forth, in gaseous form, the elemental make up of water, H2O or two parts Hydrogen and one part Oxygen.

Additionally, we learned in high school, the very first internal combustion engines were powered by Hydrogen fuel. Apparently, no one had yet invented the corner gas station. This left "Francois Isaac de Rivaz" in 1806 to invent his own Hydrogen (derived from water) powered internal combustion engine and his rudimentary automobile powered by it in 1807. Gasoline was not used for internal combustion engines until 1870. And then, of course, came the corner gas station complete with a full array of convenient products like candy bars, soda, milk, beer and scratch off lottery tickets...

What most people don't know is that in 1973-74, NASA commissioned a study by the Jet Propulsion Lab of the California Institute of Technology. This study concluded that by introducing Hydrogen fuel into the combustion cycle of an internal combustion engine along with any normal fuel derived from petroleum or fossil fuels, as some like to refer (gasoline, diesel, natural gas or propane), increased the efficiency of the engine's combustion cycle. The same is true with ethanol, methanol and biodiesel fuel.

The fact that Hydrogen has a complete burn cycle and above sonic speed flame front, Hydrogen can alter the combustion dynamics of other fuels which thereby increases the adiabatic efficiency of the engine's combustion cycle. In other words, when you introduce Hydrogen into an engine that is running on another fuel, that other fuel, burns faster, burns cleaner and requires less of the other fuel to perform it's work.

We know that gasoline engines are, roughly, only 21% efficient and diesel engines are about 40% efficient, however, when we add hydrogen into the combustion cycle, for every 1% increase in the adiabatic efficiency, we receive a 2.5% decrease in fuel consumption. So the more Hydrogen, the better the fuel economy.

This is not to say that an equal amount of Hydrogen would displace an equal amount of the other fuel. What actually happens is, a smaller amount of Hydrogen will actually displace a larger amount of fuel due to the increase of efficiency gained by less wasted fuel energy in the form of heat or expanding gases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3...Isaac_de_Rivaz

http://inventors.about.com/library/w...aacarsgasa.htm

Francois Isaac de Rivaz built an internal combusion engine in 1807. (yes, eighteen hundred and seven), believed to be the world's first.

http://www.eoearth.org/article/De_Ri...C3%A7ois_Isaac


What more can I say??
Back to the future?
It seems that HHO was used long before gasoline.

All I know is I built one and it works.
Don't be a skeptic, don't believe me, just build one for yourself and try it.

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Old 04-06-2008, 09:17 PM   #37
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I have plans and schematics for one of these systems if anyone wants a copy.
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Old 05-06-2008, 02:18 AM   #38
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hydrogen alone works nobody disputes that. but your talking about using water.

When your done set up a real world test. And post the results sans bs. And taking actual wear and battery drain into consideration. Its the only way. If it works then prepare to be rich, seing as your the first, if not and you still sell it as if it does. shame on you.
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Old 05-06-2008, 02:30 AM   #39
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well, the kits on ebay sell fairly regularly and the seller has hardly any neg feedback.

crrrock you didn't really answer my questions. i watched your video but it doesn't have much to do with my questions.

i guess the bottom line is... is this something that is going to take up all of my spare time for several months/years to fine tune it to a point that it will save me fuel? that would defeat the purpose of the whole thing as it would extend the ROI by many years rather than a couple of months for the initial setup which is what some of these companies claim.
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:16 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Bird
As a physicist, I must say that no matter what, solar is inadequate for base-load power production. This is from someone IN the solar industry! Nuclear base-load, coupled with solar as you say would be a good solution. Too bad Australians love to complain about things they don't understand.
As a physicist, i can understand why you appreciate nuclear. I also appreciate that you work in the Solar Industry. Is that in Voltaics?

I work in the Power Industry and have completed my Electrical Engineering and specialise in HV protection design. I have also worked in distribution, substation construction etc. Now, that we have each of our careers out of the way.

I say you're wrong. Base-load solar, as in solar thermal is a viable solution.

Just one example: A solar thermal base load station is being partly funded by the Queensland government and is to be built in Cloncurry.

Check out many of these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloncur..._power_station
http://www.reuters.com/article/envir...22647720071104
www.ausra.com

An excerpt from the reuters article:
"Solar thermal power differs from photovoltaic panels that make power directly.

Instead, 8,000 mirrors will reflect sunlight onto graphite blocks. Water will be pumped through the blocks to generate steam which generates electricity via turbines.

Heat stored in the graphite produces steam well after the sun goes down, allowing electricity generators to keep running at night."

*********

I don't mean to offend, but it pains me that people who should know better, spread misinformation. So I repeat Solar Thermal Base Load is Viable.
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:24 AM   #41
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Well, back on topic.

I read in I believe it was Wheels where there was a car competing in the Solar / Eco Challenge run. He was running his car on diesel & salty water or something and getting awesome mileage. I guess it was a similar setup?

The guys were from NZ and attracting mass interest from the Automakers engineers who were in attendance...
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:49 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THORNSPAWN
I have plans and schematics for one of these systems if anyone wants a copy.
maybe you could post it up? i would be interested in the read
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Old 05-06-2008, 02:16 PM   #43
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The setup used is similar in design to the 'Joe Cell', although that runs completely on water & is more likely using orgone energy + hydrogen.

There are a heap of videos on YT with people who have made these devices and get 20% reduction in fuel usage.
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Old 05-06-2008, 05:52 PM   #44
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Instructions are in the document file Here





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Old 06-06-2008, 11:35 AM   #45
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Sorry UNCO, got off track.
My system took about 30 hours to settle in and condition the plates.
There is no "fine tuning" as such.
Only maintenance is to replenish the water as it is consumed.
Mine took 250ml for about 850km.
I'm working on an auto refill using a windscreen washer bottle/pump.
I haven't had enough time to know what the long term effects will be on the plate array, how long to will take to deteriorate, etc.
I am imagining a few years, depending on your mileage of course.
Using a PWM as in THORNSPAWN's drawings above will apparently produce orthohydrogen, as against parahydrogen. Ortho apparently has some higher value, and takes about one third the amps to produce.

still experimenting

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Old 06-06-2008, 11:58 AM   #46
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Have you got any photo's of your setup crrrock?
Would be interesting to have a look at one that has been constructed
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Old 06-06-2008, 01:05 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyc
As a physicist, i can understand why you appreciate nuclear. I also appreciate that you work in the Solar Industry. Is that in Voltaics?

I work in the Power Industry and have completed my Electrical Engineering and specialise in HV protection design. I have also worked in distribution, substation construction etc. Now, that we have each of our careers out of the way.

I say you're wrong. Base-load solar, as in solar thermal is a viable solution.

Just one example: A solar thermal base load station is being partly funded by the Queensland government and is to be built in Cloncurry.

Check out many of these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloncur..._power_station
http://www.reuters.com/article/envir...22647720071104
www.ausra.com

An excerpt from the reuters article:
"Solar thermal power differs from photovoltaic panels that make power directly.

Instead, 8,000 mirrors will reflect sunlight onto graphite blocks. Water will be pumped through the blocks to generate steam which generates electricity via turbines.

Heat stored in the graphite produces steam well after the sun goes down, allowing electricity generators to keep running at night."

*********

I don't mean to offend, but it pains me that people who should know better, spread misinformation. So I repeat Solar Thermal Base Load is Viable.
I don't consider it misinformation, just limitations based on what technology is available now. Base load, as you know, doesn't mean that the station can "produce electricity overnight". It means it can ALWAYS produce electricity no matter the conditions. If there was a week of overcast days, the electricity production would be greatly reduced.

I must say that it is nice to talk to someone in the industry though. I won't pretend I know everything (far from it!). If we can achieve base-load with solar using mirrors, that is a great development.
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Old 06-06-2008, 03:00 PM   #48
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XALENT, look for my setup on youTube.
Type in 'experimental HHO' and then find my user name 'crrrock'
Its really so simple, but there's quite a few finer points, so I'm continually learning.
Lots on there are only interested in producing mass volume, but to do that they are using mains(rectified) and up to 90amps.
Man, I weld with 90 amps.
I'm only interested in what I can produce while I'm on the road with 12 volts..

In response to JAYDEN, I have done a real world test, as you call it.
I HAVE ACHIEVED a 41% saving in diesel.
I have made my own setup, based on info gleaned from the net, and my own experiments.
I am continuing to experiment, although replying to idiots who will not think outside the box is cutting into my workshop time.

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Old 06-06-2008, 03:20 PM   #49
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I don't think calling other members "idiots" is helping your case one iota.
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Old 06-06-2008, 03:31 PM   #50
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For the skeptics on here. You have heard of LPG acting as a catalyst on diesel. Small amounts of LPG being injected with the diesel fuel catalyzes it, and causes it to produce more power and burn 30-40% less diesel. The same thing happens with Urea and also hydrogen. So hydrogen getting injected with your fuel, the hydrogen acts as a catalyst, uses less fuel. The other bit.. can you separate hydrogen and oxygen from water using electrical power? answer: yes Does this device do all that like it says it does? I don't know, i don't have one! Is it possible that it CAN? Yes it is!
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Old 06-06-2008, 04:52 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevypower
For the skeptics on here. You have heard of LPG acting as a catalyst on diesel. Small amounts of LPG being injected with the diesel fuel catalyzes it, and causes it to produce more power and burn 30-40% less diesel. The same thing happens with Urea and also hydrogen. So hydrogen getting injected with your fuel, the hydrogen acts as a catalyst, uses less fuel. The other bit.. can you separate hydrogen and oxygen from water using electrical power? answer: yes Does this device do all that like it says it does? I don't know, i don't have one! Is it possible that it CAN? Yes it is!
They can not be referred to as 'catalysts'.A catalyst is a substance that alters the speed of a chemical reaction and does not appear in the final product and undergoes no permanent changes. Just a technicality, and not being critical of your post.
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Old 06-06-2008, 06:50 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crrrock
For a bunch of petrol heads (supposedly) you sure are a bunch of dumb asses.
My wallet is my witness.
I rest my case.

crrrock
Get over yourself.

People aren't idiots for using petrol. You're not superior to petrol users. The majority of the population don't have shacks in the backyards where they play with toys, instead they have full time jobs that will provide more than ample amounts of money required to fill a tank.


I think you need to understand that you're a pioneer and you're different, not superior.

You call us dumb ***** for using petrol. I could just as easily call you a dumb for devoting so much time into creating a device that will only save you $50 a week.
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Old 06-06-2008, 07:17 PM   #53
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crrrock while i commend your commitment to new ideas, the name calling of other members will see this thread locked.
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Old 06-06-2008, 07:45 PM   #54
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Christopher Columbus was ridiculed and called a fool because he believed the world was round... The rest off the idiots believed our world was flat... It took Christopher Columbus a few years to prove his theory and the world was in fact round..

What is happening here is similar to what happened to CC... Here are some people that are trying to find a better alternative to burning fossil fuel, and then a lot off you are knocking his efforts.... With the way fuel prices are going I hope they do fined a cheap alternative that is easy, safe and clean to use....

Remember, without the backyard inventor, we would not have the car, internal combustion engine, the wheel, hills hoist, electricity and millions off other things we take for granted every day...
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Old 06-06-2008, 10:27 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xtremerus
They can not be referred to as 'catalysts'.A catalyst is a substance that alters the speed of a chemical reaction and does not appear in the final product and undergoes no permanent changes. Just a technicality, and not being critical of your post.
I know your being uber technical... but it is actually a 'catalytic' like effect. In a dry chemistry/chemical sense your correct. But, any element that changes another, is actually catalytic. It's called the third step process.

It's almost like saying someone has had a 'cathartic' process they've gone through(emotional), it changes the outcome in the end, due to a 'third' party/interaction being involved. The third party being far removed from any direct/forceful interaction, it just exist's as a result of a process. A true catalyst is deliberately inserted, into an active process. A known outcome, sort of thing.

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Old 07-06-2008, 11:33 AM   #56
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Moderators: my apologies

JABBA: thanks mate. You see my point.

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Old 07-06-2008, 02:13 PM   #57
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I have to say I am still as skeptical about this water idea as I am about this one:





see http://www.pureenergysystems.com/new...RamWingUpdate/


But one of these on an AU would look interesting.
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Old 07-06-2008, 02:36 PM   #58
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Had a bloke in a pub in Perth the other day offer to sell me a system the he reckons gets him 200-250mpg from a 350 Chev. Wouldn't tell me how it worked though, funny that.
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Old 07-06-2008, 04:02 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Bird
I don't consider it misinformation, just limitations based on what technology is available now
I disagree, the technology already exists.......just the cost and changing of the status quo are the hard things for our politicians. The technology for carbon sequestration currently is unproved, but millions are being spent on it and so far there isnt one power station in Australia that is using it.....apart from one mickey mouse one. A few more solar plants could come on line and be actually making electricity for the millions outlayed so far.
As outlined by phillyc, solar thermal base load is possible(by any definition of base load) but even if it wasnt, if we could get Australia's output up to 80% renewable and used fossil fuels for the times that the base load cant be met then that would be an incredible outcome. Look up the data for sunny mildura........the sun does nearly shine every day......obviously we wont put the stations in hobart!


Back to the H2 scam.
Yes, there is evidence that the 4 stroke engine will operate more efficiently on H2 rather than petrol......if certain design mods are made...including compression ratio. I havent really seen any data on the efficiency of existing four stroke engines that are designed to run on petrol, but accept that they could be more efficient.
However, what is being claimed is the addition of only really trace* amounts of H2 into the normal fuel mix can create gains in efficiency of 30-40%, find that hard to comprehend.
*at highway speeds engine output is typically ~15kW or so in modern cars. If the power being fed into the hydrogen generator is only 0.1kW then at best the ratio of hydrogen being fed into the engine as opposed to petrol would be in the ratio 1:150...small.
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Old 10-06-2008, 12:43 AM   #60
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*sigh*
Show of hands please.....
Who's not interested if they're only going to save $50 a week?

COMMSIRAC, would you be interested to come for a run to Sydney and back in my Canter? (about 350k's one way) One way on diesel, the return on my HHO assist, and then you can come and make an informed post for all the members.

and.... isn't this only a scam if I'm trying to sell you something that doesn't work?
All I'm offering is the information, FOR FREE, to anyone who only wants to save $50 a week. LMAO.

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