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The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk |
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02-06-2008, 01:19 PM | #31 | ||
FG XR6 Ute & Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bibra Lake WA
Posts: 23,615
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regards Blue |
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02-06-2008, 02:14 PM | #32 | ||
Starter Motor
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Boorowa
Posts: 20
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All I can tell you is this.......
My setup uses about 10 amps, about as much as a 120watt driving light. YES, it takes petrol, engine power, to produce that 120watts, but the return in combustion efficiency is MANY FOLD. I'm not suggesting that everyone will get 40% improvement like I did, but wouldn't you be happy with 10 or 20% in your pocket?? My system uses about 250ml of water for 856 km, the distance I was testing it, to my girlfriends house. I just top it off with a cup of water for the return trip. The electrolyte eventually "thins" so it should be replaced down the line. Long term?? I'm not sure how long the S/S plates will last. The guts of the cell will eventually have to be replaced. But then so does your battery and your tyres, huh? As long as the correct grade of S/S is used, and the plates passivated and conditioned correctly, I am guessing at maybe 2 or 3 years, maybe more. My experiments continue...... crrrock |
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04-06-2008, 04:07 PM | #33 | ||
Starter Motor
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Boorowa
Posts: 20
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04-06-2008, 04:42 PM | #34 | ||
My Boss has gas
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Darwin
Posts: 42
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At the moment this is the only thing i'd like to try that involves water....
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html |
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04-06-2008, 07:57 PM | #35 | |||
Starter Motor
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wellington, NZ
Posts: 17
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Quote:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/how-a-...gine-works.htm |
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04-06-2008, 08:32 PM | #36 | ||
Starter Motor
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Boorowa
Posts: 20
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Electrolysis is a well documented process known to most high school graduates. A simple act of applying electricity to submerged electrodes in a water solution, with or without a catalyst, bringing forth, in gaseous form, the elemental make up of water, H2O or two parts Hydrogen and one part Oxygen.
Additionally, we learned in high school, the very first internal combustion engines were powered by Hydrogen fuel. Apparently, no one had yet invented the corner gas station. This left "Francois Isaac de Rivaz" in 1806 to invent his own Hydrogen (derived from water) powered internal combustion engine and his rudimentary automobile powered by it in 1807. Gasoline was not used for internal combustion engines until 1870. And then, of course, came the corner gas station complete with a full array of convenient products like candy bars, soda, milk, beer and scratch off lottery tickets... What most people don't know is that in 1973-74, NASA commissioned a study by the Jet Propulsion Lab of the California Institute of Technology. This study concluded that by introducing Hydrogen fuel into the combustion cycle of an internal combustion engine along with any normal fuel derived from petroleum or fossil fuels, as some like to refer (gasoline, diesel, natural gas or propane), increased the efficiency of the engine's combustion cycle. The same is true with ethanol, methanol and biodiesel fuel. The fact that Hydrogen has a complete burn cycle and above sonic speed flame front, Hydrogen can alter the combustion dynamics of other fuels which thereby increases the adiabatic efficiency of the engine's combustion cycle. In other words, when you introduce Hydrogen into an engine that is running on another fuel, that other fuel, burns faster, burns cleaner and requires less of the other fuel to perform it's work. We know that gasoline engines are, roughly, only 21% efficient and diesel engines are about 40% efficient, however, when we add hydrogen into the combustion cycle, for every 1% increase in the adiabatic efficiency, we receive a 2.5% decrease in fuel consumption. So the more Hydrogen, the better the fuel economy. This is not to say that an equal amount of Hydrogen would displace an equal amount of the other fuel. What actually happens is, a smaller amount of Hydrogen will actually displace a larger amount of fuel due to the increase of efficiency gained by less wasted fuel energy in the form of heat or expanding gases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3...Isaac_de_Rivaz http://inventors.about.com/library/w...aacarsgasa.htm Francois Isaac de Rivaz built an internal combusion engine in 1807. (yes, eighteen hundred and seven), believed to be the world's first. http://www.eoearth.org/article/De_Ri...C3%A7ois_Isaac What more can I say?? Back to the future? It seems that HHO was used long before gasoline. All I know is I built one and it works. Don't be a skeptic, don't believe me, just build one for yourself and try it. crrrock |
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04-06-2008, 09:17 PM | #37 | ||
In the Forced 'lane
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Geelong
Posts: 796
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I have plans and schematics for one of these systems if anyone wants a copy.
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XE S-Pack 4 Runner XH11 Longreach |
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05-06-2008, 02:18 AM | #38 | ||
Graphic Artist
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Perth
Posts: 942
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hydrogen alone works nobody disputes that. but your talking about using water.
When your done set up a real world test. And post the results sans bs. And taking actual wear and battery drain into consideration. Its the only way. If it works then prepare to be rich, seing as your the first, if not and you still sell it as if it does. shame on you.
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For crimes against aesthetics in automotive culture, I sentence you to a life of commodore. |
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05-06-2008, 02:30 AM | #39 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Assens, Denmark
Posts: 622
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well, the kits on ebay sell fairly regularly and the seller has hardly any neg feedback.
crrrock you didn't really answer my questions. i watched your video but it doesn't have much to do with my questions. i guess the bottom line is... is this something that is going to take up all of my spare time for several months/years to fine tune it to a point that it will save me fuel? that would defeat the purpose of the whole thing as it would extend the ROI by many years rather than a couple of months for the initial setup which is what some of these companies claim. |
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05-06-2008, 10:16 AM | #40 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 3,246
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Quote:
I work in the Power Industry and have completed my Electrical Engineering and specialise in HV protection design. I have also worked in distribution, substation construction etc. Now, that we have each of our careers out of the way. I say you're wrong. Base-load solar, as in solar thermal is a viable solution. Just one example: A solar thermal base load station is being partly funded by the Queensland government and is to be built in Cloncurry. Check out many of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloncur..._power_station http://www.reuters.com/article/envir...22647720071104 www.ausra.com An excerpt from the reuters article: "Solar thermal power differs from photovoltaic panels that make power directly. Instead, 8,000 mirrors will reflect sunlight onto graphite blocks. Water will be pumped through the blocks to generate steam which generates electricity via turbines. Heat stored in the graphite produces steam well after the sun goes down, allowing electricity generators to keep running at night." ********* I don't mean to offend, but it pains me that people who should know better, spread misinformation. So I repeat Solar Thermal Base Load is Viable.
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BA2 XR8 Rapid M6 Ute - Lid - Tint -18s 226.8rwkW@178kmh/537Nm@140kmh 1/9/2013 14.2@163kmh 23/10/2013 Boss349 built. Not yet run. Waiting on a shell. Retrotech thread http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...1363569&page=6 |
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05-06-2008, 10:24 AM | #41 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 3,246
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Well, back on topic.
I read in I believe it was Wheels where there was a car competing in the Solar / Eco Challenge run. He was running his car on diesel & salty water or something and getting awesome mileage. I guess it was a similar setup? The guys were from NZ and attracting mass interest from the Automakers engineers who were in attendance...
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BA2 XR8 Rapid M6 Ute - Lid - Tint -18s 226.8rwkW@178kmh/537Nm@140kmh 1/9/2013 14.2@163kmh 23/10/2013 Boss349 built. Not yet run. Waiting on a shell. Retrotech thread http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...1363569&page=6 |
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05-06-2008, 10:49 AM | #42 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: GOsFORD Central Coast NSW
Posts: 1,930
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Quote:
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XB Parts Wanted Twin Horns 8-9/74 and lower horn dated 7-8/74, GT hubcaps. GT aircleaner. Please pm me if you can help |
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05-06-2008, 02:16 PM | #43 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 479
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The setup used is similar in design to the 'Joe Cell', although that runs completely on water & is more likely using orgone energy + hydrogen.
There are a heap of videos on YT with people who have made these devices and get 20% reduction in fuel usage. |
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06-06-2008, 11:35 AM | #45 | ||
Starter Motor
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Boorowa
Posts: 20
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Sorry UNCO, got off track.
My system took about 30 hours to settle in and condition the plates. There is no "fine tuning" as such. Only maintenance is to replenish the water as it is consumed. Mine took 250ml for about 850km. I'm working on an auto refill using a windscreen washer bottle/pump. I haven't had enough time to know what the long term effects will be on the plate array, how long to will take to deteriorate, etc. I am imagining a few years, depending on your mileage of course. Using a PWM as in THORNSPAWN's drawings above will apparently produce orthohydrogen, as against parahydrogen. Ortho apparently has some higher value, and takes about one third the amps to produce. still experimenting crrrock |
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06-06-2008, 11:58 AM | #46 | ||
Red Eye Racing
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Looking for a drag strip
Posts: 720
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Have you got any photo's of your setup crrrock?
Would be interesting to have a look at one that has been constructed |
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06-06-2008, 01:05 PM | #47 | |||
Watts a panhard.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 929
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Quote:
I must say that it is nice to talk to someone in the industry though. I won't pretend I know everything (far from it!). If we can achieve base-load with solar using mirrors, that is a great development. |
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06-06-2008, 03:00 PM | #48 | ||
Starter Motor
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Boorowa
Posts: 20
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XALENT, look for my setup on youTube.
Type in 'experimental HHO' and then find my user name 'crrrock' Its really so simple, but there's quite a few finer points, so I'm continually learning. Lots on there are only interested in producing mass volume, but to do that they are using mains(rectified) and up to 90amps. Man, I weld with 90 amps. I'm only interested in what I can produce while I'm on the road with 12 volts.. In response to JAYDEN, I have done a real world test, as you call it. I HAVE ACHIEVED a 41% saving in diesel. I have made my own setup, based on info gleaned from the net, and my own experiments. I am continuing to experiment, although replying to idiots who will not think outside the box is cutting into my workshop time. crrrock. |
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06-06-2008, 03:20 PM | #49 | ||
Watts a panhard.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 929
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I don't think calling other members "idiots" is helping your case one iota.
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06-06-2008, 03:31 PM | #50 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Utah
Posts: 3,479
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For the skeptics on here. You have heard of LPG acting as a catalyst on diesel. Small amounts of LPG being injected with the diesel fuel catalyzes it, and causes it to produce more power and burn 30-40% less diesel. The same thing happens with Urea and also hydrogen. So hydrogen getting injected with your fuel, the hydrogen acts as a catalyst, uses less fuel. The other bit.. can you separate hydrogen and oxygen from water using electrical power? answer: yes Does this device do all that like it says it does? I don't know, i don't have one! Is it possible that it CAN? Yes it is!
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06-06-2008, 04:52 PM | #51 | |||
FG XR6T trayback
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: N-W NSW
Posts: 1,314
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Quote:
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06-06-2008, 06:50 PM | #52 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,699
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Quote:
People aren't idiots for using petrol. You're not superior to petrol users. The majority of the population don't have shacks in the backyards where they play with toys, instead they have full time jobs that will provide more than ample amounts of money required to fill a tank. I think you need to understand that you're a pioneer and you're different, not superior. You call us dumb ***** for using petrol. I could just as easily call you a dumb for devoting so much time into creating a device that will only save you $50 a week.
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EB II 1992 Fairmont - koni reds, wade 977b, 2.5inch/4480's and much more to come! |
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06-06-2008, 07:17 PM | #53 | ||
Clevo Mafia Inc.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 10,496
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crrrock while i commend your commitment to new ideas, the name calling of other members will see this thread locked.
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06-06-2008, 07:45 PM | #54 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Is that your face, or did you neck throw up
Posts: 3,041
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Christopher Columbus was ridiculed and called a fool because he believed the world was round... The rest off the idiots believed our world was flat... It took Christopher Columbus a few years to prove his theory and the world was in fact round..
What is happening here is similar to what happened to CC... Here are some people that are trying to find a better alternative to burning fossil fuel, and then a lot off you are knocking his efforts.... With the way fuel prices are going I hope they do fined a cheap alternative that is easy, safe and clean to use.... Remember, without the backyard inventor, we would not have the car, internal combustion engine, the wheel, hills hoist, electricity and millions off other things we take for granted every day... Last edited by jabba; 06-06-2008 at 07:55 PM. |
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06-06-2008, 10:27 PM | #55 | |||
Regular Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 479
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Quote:
It's almost like saying someone has had a 'cathartic' process they've gone through(emotional), it changes the outcome in the end, due to a 'third' party/interaction being involved. The third party being far removed from any direct/forceful interaction, it just exist's as a result of a process. A true catalyst is deliberately inserted, into an active process. A known outcome, sort of thing. Last edited by jonk; 06-06-2008 at 10:33 PM. |
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07-06-2008, 11:33 AM | #56 | ||
Starter Motor
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Boorowa
Posts: 20
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Moderators: my apologies
JABBA: thanks mate. You see my point. crrrock |
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07-06-2008, 02:13 PM | #57 | ||
FG XR6 Ute & Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bibra Lake WA
Posts: 23,615
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I have to say I am still as skeptical about this water idea as I am about this one:
see http://www.pureenergysystems.com/new...RamWingUpdate/ But one of these on an AU would look interesting.
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regards Blue Last edited by aussiblue; 07-06-2008 at 02:26 PM. |
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07-06-2008, 02:36 PM | #58 | ||
Cowboy
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Echuca VIC
Posts: 1,065
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Had a bloke in a pub in Perth the other day offer to sell me a system the he reckons gets him 200-250mpg from a 350 Chev. Wouldn't tell me how it worked though, funny that.
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07-06-2008, 04:02 PM | #59 | |||
Regular Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 267
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Quote:
As outlined by phillyc, solar thermal base load is possible(by any definition of base load) but even if it wasnt, if we could get Australia's output up to 80% renewable and used fossil fuels for the times that the base load cant be met then that would be an incredible outcome. Look up the data for sunny mildura........the sun does nearly shine every day......obviously we wont put the stations in hobart! Back to the H2 scam. Yes, there is evidence that the 4 stroke engine will operate more efficiently on H2 rather than petrol......if certain design mods are made...including compression ratio. I havent really seen any data on the efficiency of existing four stroke engines that are designed to run on petrol, but accept that they could be more efficient. However, what is being claimed is the addition of only really trace* amounts of H2 into the normal fuel mix can create gains in efficiency of 30-40%, find that hard to comprehend. *at highway speeds engine output is typically ~15kW or so in modern cars. If the power being fed into the hydrogen generator is only 0.1kW then at best the ratio of hydrogen being fed into the engine as opposed to petrol would be in the ratio 1:150...small. |
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10-06-2008, 12:43 AM | #60 | ||
Starter Motor
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Boorowa
Posts: 20
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*sigh*
Show of hands please..... Who's not interested if they're only going to save $50 a week? COMMSIRAC, would you be interested to come for a run to Sydney and back in my Canter? (about 350k's one way) One way on diesel, the return on my HHO assist, and then you can come and make an informed post for all the members. and.... isn't this only a scam if I'm trying to sell you something that doesn't work? All I'm offering is the information, FOR FREE, to anyone who only wants to save $50 a week. LMAO. crrrock |
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