GRWD: gone - Page 2

Falc'man · 12-01-2009, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPFS1

keep the faith!

this one article does not spell the end for our Aussie RWD falcon.

Spot on! Many a panic article before this about fwd/falcon won't survive/the sky is falling. Sure, nothing is for certain and no one knows what's going to happen tomorrow, let alone in four years time... just like no body had a clue the I6 would be dropped, and then, all of a sudden brought back to life again.

I don't understand how the rwd can be totally eradicated from the Ford line-up. This decision, imo, gives more weight to Falcon being commandeered/modified/evolved to form some basis for other Ford rwd. What other rwd platform do they have that's as good as FG's? Let me re-phrase; what other rwd platform will they have in 2013?

DanielXR8 · 12-01-2009, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eb2fairmont

Consider this:

Panther phased out by 2010 due to crash regs.
Mustang due for replacement 2012.

Both the Panther and Mustang sell in numbers which Ford cannot ignore. Both of these vehicles are similar in size to the Falcon.

One platform would span all three of these vehicles.

Falcon and Mustang SWB.
Fairlane and Crown Vic LWB.

My money is on a "oh moment" in Ford planning leading to FoA getting the job to replace all three.

It does make sense. Designing the car here, nicely sidesteps a lot of attention from the US politicians and media too, while Ford US rabbits on about its green designs and what is is doing to their local media.

Falcon in a few years for sale here only, really doesn't make sense. But for here and a few small niche markets.... nice way to milk the last bit of R&D investment out of Falcon and a cheap (comparitively) platform, before the whole petrol engine thing is redundant and we go to some other source of power for cars.

Dan

**ebxr8240** · 12-01-2009, 11:30 PM

G.M went front wheel drive on most there cars .. The public there don't like fwd on the bigger cars..
A v6 makes the engine more usable in that it can be fitted to most types of platforms.. 3 cylinders long and almost a box size wise..

dom_105 · 13-01-2009, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falc'man

In other words, "why spend BIG on a GRWD when we already have an up to date RWD chassis that's made on a shoestring budget, that is FWD/AWD compatible, and will cost next to nothing (in the scheme of things) to convert to LHD????"

They'd be crazy to start from scratch with FG in the stable. Smart move... if that's the plan.

It is very logical.

Panther was developed when Nixon was still in, it does make sense for Dearborn to cash in on the development already undertaken by Broadmeadows, development which has all but been paid for.

It makes a lot of sense, at least in the short term.

tbearz · 13-01-2009, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dom_105

It is very logical.

It makes a lot of sense, at least in the short term.

Since when did commonsense ever get in the way of a business deal?? Have you not seen what is happening in the world at the moment?

Plus by the looks of the 2010 taurus (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/11/d...like-its-1986/) it looks like detroit have pretty much ripped the front of the falcon off. Do they think they can just substitute our falcon for this pox?? The argument for australia to export the falcon is here once again, current economic situation (i.e. out dollar being in the toilet) and fuel being darn cheap = perfect time for australia to be pumping out falcons to the rest of the world at a cheap price as a poor mans merc/bmw/audi, bloody market it you stupid cpa morons!!! /rant

Bossxr8 · 13-01-2009, 12:08 PM

Word is the idea of FWD has been dropped, and will never appear in a Falcon, thank god. Falcon will most likely continue on as a bespoke chassis, but to make that viable it must be LHD and exported, there's no other way it can happen at the current numbers. The only way they will make it viable is if they can get numbers up high enough to justify the expenditure needed to make an all new model, and that can't happen in today's climate solely in Australia and NZ cause the numbers don't add up. If the Panther chassis cars aren't going to be replaced then it opens up a market for the Falcon, but most likely a Fairlane derivative that can match the size of the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis. The question is whether it may be the Middle East or the US or both. I know the Crown Vic only sells to the Police and to Taxi companies in the US, they no longer sell them to the public. Could Ford be bothered replacing them for that market, or will sales in the Middle East be good enough.

Its starting to appear that the Falcon may live on post 2013, but i'm still under the impression the V6 will return after that time as an all new model can be designed from the start to take it.

Road_Warrior · 13-01-2009, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Word is the idea of FWD has been dropped, and will never appear in a Falcon, thank god. Falcon will most likely continue on as a bespoke chassis, but to make that viable it must be LHD and exported, there's no other way it can happen at the current numbers. The only way they will make it viable is if they can get numbers up high enough to justify the expenditure needed to make an all new model, and that can't happen in todays climate solely in Australia and NZ cause the numbers don't add up.

Its starting to appear that the Falcon may live on post 2013, but i'm still under the impression the V6 will return after that time as an all new model can be designed from the start to take it.

Is anyone able to tell me, apart from the 'Captain Obvious' matter of having the steering wheel on the opposite side of the car, the FG can't be engineered for LHD? I read somewhere else that the I6 was an issue for LHD, true or false?

Bossxr8 · 13-01-2009, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Is anyone able to tell me, apart from the 'Captain Obvious' matter of having the steering wheel on the opposite side of the car, the FG can't be engineered for LHD? I read somewhere else that the I6 was an issue for LHD, true or false?

It was originally going to be LHD compatible, but then it only ended up being "design protected" for LHD, which basically means there is nothing in the design that can get in the way of it being LHD if they wanted it too.

As for the I6, LHD may have some issues with the steering shaft on the other side but with a front mounted steering rack it may not be a problem, nothing a CAD development program couldn't fix. If they do export for LHD it will be with an all new Falcon post 2013 so it could be designed from the start for both LHD and RHD so it makes it much easier if its all designed from a blank piece of paper.

EgoFG · 13-01-2009, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I know the Crown Vic only sells to the Police and to Taxi companies in the US, they no longer sell them to the public.

I believe any fleet can purhase them - especially the rental fleets.

The Lincoln Town Car and Mercury Grand Marquis are still for public sale, and these are essentially the same car as the Crown Vic.

Road_Warrior · 13-01-2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EgoFG

I believe any fleet can purhase them - especially the rental fleets.

The Lincoln Town Car and Mercury Grand Marquis are still for public sale, and these are essentially the same car as the Crown Vic.

Still for sale, yes. Being produced - no.

RATT · 13-01-2009, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Word is the idea of FWD has been dropped, and will never appear in a Falcon, thank god. Falcon will most likely continue on as a bespoke chassis, but to make that viable it must be LHD and exported, there's no other way it can happen at the current numbers. The only way they will make it viable is if they can get numbers up high enough to justify the expenditure needed to make an all new model, and that can't happen in today's climate solely in Australia and NZ cause the numbers don't add up. If the Panther chassis cars aren't going to be replaced then it opens up a market for the Falcon, but most likely a Fairlane derivative that can match the size of the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis. The question is whether it may be the Middle East or the US or both. I know the Crown Vic only sells to the Police and to Taxi companies in the US, they no longer sell them to the public. Could Ford be bothered replacing them for that market, or will sales in the Middle East be good enough.

Its starting to appear that the Falcon may live on post 2013, but i'm still under the impression the V6 will return after that time as an all new model can be designed from the start to take it.

Very informative post. And it all makes sense as this could well be the opportunity for Falcon to really sell in significant numbers to the Middle East as well as supplying the the engineering knowhow and basis for a Panther platform replacement.

Bossxr8 · 13-01-2009, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RATT

Very informative post. And it all makes sense as this could well be the opportunity for Falcon to really sell in significant numbers to the Middle East as well as supplying the the engineering knowhow and basis for a Panther platform replacement.

FoA have wanted the Middle East market for a while. Hopefully Detroit will give it to them.

HSE2 · 13-01-2009, 04:26 PM

It’s not going to hurt that GM have seemingly shored up the Commondoors RWD future yesterday at the Detroit show.

JPFS1 · 13-01-2009, 05:02 PM

it will be all good i'm sure ;)

phillyc · 13-01-2009, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Word is the idea of FWD has been dropped, and will never appear in a Falcon, thank god. Falcon will most likely continue on as a bespoke chassis, but to make that viable it must be LHD and exported, there's no other way it can happen at the current numbers. The only way they will make it viable is if they can get numbers up high enough to justify the expenditure needed to make an all new model, and that can't happen in today's climate solely in Australia and NZ cause the numbers don't add up. If the Panther chassis cars aren't going to be replaced then it opens up a market for the Falcon, but most likely a Fairlane derivative that can match the size of the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis. The question is whether it may be the Middle East or the US or both. I know the Crown Vic only sells to the Police and to Taxi companies in the US, they no longer sell them to the public. Could Ford be bothered replacing them for that market, or will sales in the Middle East be good enough.

Its starting to appear that the Falcon may live on post 2013, but i'm still under the impression the V6 will return after that time as an all new model can be designed from the start to take it.

I'd be quite happy to hve the v6 if the Falcon is used as the basis for a world car from 2013 or so onwards.

Like others have said, the FG Falcon is a good 3 or 4 generations ahead of where the current US rwd sedans are. So why spend bulk money on a brand new platform when you have something that is probably a genuine 90% as good as a BMW 5 series anyway in the FG Falcon?

Easy, don't. Adopt and refine the FG with a further update of suspensions, drivelines, chassis and other technologies.

It's easy to think that it is the end of the world, but this could easily be a great thing for the Falcon.

PS Remember that both Mullaly (CEO) and Kuzak (global product chief) are both fans of the Falcon and it's platforms!

eb2fairmont · 13-01-2009, 09:10 PM

Exactly. If you look at the volumes across Panther, Mustang and Falcon then you see a number which makes the business case add up. Individually it doesn't work.

phillyc · 13-01-2009, 09:35 PM

US Sales 2008

http://media.ford.com/images/10031/dec08sales.pdf

45,550 Crown Victoria
14,285 Town Car
27,495 Grand Marquis

87,330 Total 'Panther'

87,224 Mustang

Add the Mustang and Panther together and you have 174,554 RWD sedans and coupes. That represents about 9% of the 1.915m vehicles sold and 26% of their cars.

Consider this. Ford need to move towards cars to improve their CAFE mandated fuel economy standards, even large ones can get good mileage.

Ford will not get rid of these vehicles. Falcon in some RWD/AWD form will be adopted.

Road_Warrior · 13-01-2009, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eb2fairmont

Exactly. If you look at the volumes across Panther, Mustang and Falcon then you see a number which makes the business case add up. Individually it doesn't work.

That was...kinda the whole point behind GRWD.

phillyc · 14-01-2009, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

That was...kinda the whole point behind GRWD.

Yes, but they were looking at a whole NEW platform. They needn't. The FG platform is so good already and with a fraction of a total new platform budget could be even better again.

eb2fairmont · 14-01-2009, 10:07 PM

Yup. Got it in one.

irlewy86 · 15-01-2009, 09:19 AM

Didn't Taruas X get the cann as well?

sleekism · 15-01-2009, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

Yes, but they were looking at a whole NEW platform. They needn't. The FG platform is so good already and with a fraction of a total new platform budget could be even better again.

Except the Mustang and Crown Victoria are both budget cars with price tags in the 20's. The FG platform is too expensive for these markets.

EgoFG · 15-01-2009, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleekism

Except the Mustang and Crown Victoria are both budget cars with price tags in the 20's. The FG platform is too expensive for these markets.

Well "...price tags tarting in the US$20s" would be a better expression, and that would roughly equate to a car starting in the mid 30s in Australia - which the FG does

TURBOTAXI · 15-01-2009, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Ford have tried the Taurus once, it failed. If they try it again I suspect the outcome will not change.

People who want boring but extremely reliable cars and do not care about DRIVING are already buying camrys/aurions etc. Taking on Toyota head to head is just silly, ask Mitsubishi.

If FoA are so out of touch with their market that they replace their "Australian" products with banal omnicarriages then they will be fighting with Chrysler for position instead of Holden & Toyota.

On the other hand, the displaced Ford workers will probably find jobs at the several new holden factories build to meet the new demand..........

This sounds about right to me. Toyotas are so good, hyundais are so cheap and have a ridiculous (good) warranty ford need a niche that sets them apart from the other mid $30k cars. You would not choose a ford over a toyota for reliability and pre/after sales service people need a reason to buy the ford.

burnz · 15-01-2009, 01:42 PM

jurno dont have any news, so make something up..
tired old news.

Tles · 15-01-2009, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

US Sales 2008

http://media.ford.com/images/10031/dec08sales.pdf

45,550 Crown Victoria
14,285 Town Car
27,495 Grand Marquis

87,330 Total 'Panther'

87,224 Mustang

Add the Mustang and Panther together and you have 174,554 RWD sedans and coupes. That represents about 9% of the 1.915m vehicles sold and 26% of their cars.

Consider this. Ford need to move towards cars to improve their CAFE mandated fuel economy standards, even large ones can get good mileage.

Ford will not get rid of these vehicles. Falcon in some RWD/AWD form will be adopted.

Agreed, good point

To their considerations I would not neglect things like the Territory, Explorer, F100 and Bronco - especially with the GM Acadia triplets all doing Ok considering market.

Bossxr8 · 15-01-2009, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleekism

Except the Mustang and Crown Victoria are both budget cars with price tags in the 20's. The FG platform is too expensive for these markets.

The Pontiac G8 GT sells for $29,995 in the US and its equivalent to a fully loaded SSV that has a RRP of close to 50k here, so a Mustang would be close to base Falcon price based on our exchange rate, GST and other taxes we cop over here.

So the FG is pretty much in the ballpark in terms of cost. And the Falcon platform would need to be made a bit smaller for the Mustang which would reduce cost a little bit.

irlewy86 · 15-01-2009, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

. And the Falcon platform would need to be made a bit smaller for the Mustang which would reduce cost a little bit.

Mustang Typhoon :sm_drool:

I just want to sell a Kidney for one!

Tles · 15-01-2009, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The Pontiac G8 GT sells for $29,995 in the US and its equivalent to a fully loaded SSV that has a RRP of close to 50k here, so a Mustang would be close to base Falcon price based on our exchange rate, GST and other taxes we cop over here.

So the FG is pretty much in the ballpark in terms of cost. And the Falcon platform would need to be made a bit smaller for the Mustang which would reduce cost a little bit.

Read someone's post while ago which said that the US's LSD rear was supposed to go under both AU Falcon and the Mustang. Cost and intrusion into rear of AU lead to quick aussie development of the control blade rear that AU ended up with while Mustang continues to soldier on with solid rear axle.

Remember another story from a few years back which said that the Canadian cops wanted Fairlanes and took some to try. They loved them, but I guess moving some Crown Vic production their way helped make that decision for them. I know times have changed but I think the numbers spoken of back then were around 45,000 cop cars - anyone would have to be happy with that. If I were a Mountie though I think I'd prefer a Terri turbo - AWD + snow. Wouldn't mind a AWD XR6 turbo though as my Patrol car.

barbarian · 15-01-2009, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

If Falcon was ever "replaced", then it would be Mondeo, not Taurus.

Agreed.

Much prefer the Mondeo over Taurus