I feel the need....the need for speed

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by casabonka

Unrestricted in NSW is still 130 though isnt it?

[NAK302]

Originally Posted by dylancox

What/who is Humpty Doo? Is that what you guys call the local police up in the NT?

a pub with the biggest set of buffalo horns behind the bar you'll ever likely see

[Burnout]

Lived in the NT in the early 70's, didn't try the limit out in those days as a B-61 all trailered up took 5 miles to get to 45mph &.... sometimes a similar distance to stop.
I did get a chance to drive an early 4 speed Tojo down the Barkley Beef Road and as I was gathering some pace the near side rear wheel came passed us and took off across the table drain.

Was back up there in the early 80's for a few years and found 140kph to 150kph to my liking......... Had a purpose built Ute though!

Saw (and heard) of some spectacular stacks, not just the usual caravans being blown off the tar by the triples either.
One bloke I knew rolled his cruiser down the side on the Stuart near the "Beetaloo" boundary, he got tossed out on the last roll he said and the vehicle came to rest across his right leg. Luckily the ground was soft due to the 'wet',, he had to drink his own urine for three days till some bloke who stopped for a 'leak' spotted his overturned vehicle across the flat.

That was the same week our young Pilot stacked the Cessna 179 Skylane into the Blacksoil swamp beside the Borraloola airstrip. He lived as well.

[GS608]

Originally Posted by casabonka

I was at Murwilumbah (sp?) back in July and about 10kms north there are a few un-restricted roads towards Urliup. Had some great fun at about 150-160 for a few metres before slowing to 120... Unrestricted in NSW is still 130 though isnt it?

Lucky there weren't any cops around..unrestricted doesn't exsist in Aus anymore..the sign refers to default rural limit, which is 110 in NSW i think?

[Bushbasher]

Yup, lived in the Alice for 2 years and used to cruise at 130-140 but when I saw a police car up ahead I'd always floor it and took much joy in legally passing them going over 170kph. My poor old 2L auto Cortina wouldn't go any faster than that, :( ............ and yes, travelling at those speeds certainly makes you pay more attention.


Bushbasher

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by XR-CHIEF

Lucky there weren't any cops around..unrestricted doesn't exsist in Aus anymore..the sign refers to default rural limit, which is 110 in NSW i think?

Yes, and i'm fairly sure unrestricted is
Urban: 50km/h
Rural: 100km/h

[casabonka]

hmm.. note to self - dont drive fast when you see an unrestricted sign...
Oops

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by Bushbasher

and yes, travelling at those speeds certainly makes you pay more attention.


Bushbasher

Yeah but the people who set speed limits have probably never drove a vehicle over 60km/h before.
All they drive is from their inner city house to the their office. Any long distances they have to cover they will fly.

[Tealglow]

My daily commute to work was 15 or so kms unlimited at usually 200+.

Hence the need for a WRX at the time (the legendary 99 model).

On the rare occasion I took the XY out it would sit on about 110 mph+, on the straights of course.

Now I can only do 130 . It takes me 5 min longer to get there.

[dylancox]

Originally Posted by casabonka

hmm.. note to self - dont drive fast when you see an unrestricted sign...
Oops

Out where I live, there used to be an 80 speed limit sign on a dead straight back road. Then, all of a sudden it vanished, the pole is there but looks like someone's got an axe and chopped it. 4 years have passed and the sign has not returned

[flappist]

Originally Posted by dylancox

Out where I live, there used to be an 80 speed limit sign on a dead straight back road. Then, all of a sudden it vanished, the pole is there but looks like someone's got an axe and chopped it. 4 years have passed and the sign has not returned

O.M.G. Where are they putting all the dead bodies.....

[cheap]

We lived in Darwin from 2003 to 2004, during a period where the NT highways had an open speed limit (i.e. no speed limit).

I have legally driven thousands of kms at very high speed, my Road King at +160km/hr regularly from Humpty Doo to Adelaide River or Jabiru. My mates Hyabussa at +260km/hr or my Land Cruiser at +160km/hr traveling to Alice Springs or Camooweal. I think I have some experience at high speed driving.

The NT had a unique situation which allowed for open speed limit:
(a) a requirement to travel long distances in a reasonable time and the NT has limited alternative travel options available
(b) a very good highway, wide, well maintained, graded and extensively cleared of obstruction on both side of the highway, flat terrain with long straights where viability is not an issue
(c) sparse population
(d) extremely low traffic volumes on the NT Highways
(e) generally good and predictable weather conditions, no fog, no snow and little rain for most of the year
(f) a parochial government, fiercely independent and willing to tell Canberra to "get stuffed"

Except for (f) all of the above items exist today.

Beginning in 2007 the NT government removed the open speed limit and placed a 130km/hr limit on the highways. This was done to normalise road speeds across Australia (in reality there was huge political and financial pressure from Canberra's politicians and bureaucrats to remove the open speed limit).

As far as I know NT was the final place on Earth with an open speed limit (despite what the NT opposition says there will never again be legal open speed driving in NT.)

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Driving at high speed was a buzz , but then it became ordinary. High speed driving did bring some unintended consequences :

(1) Concentration V's Being Alert. You're traveling at high speed 160km/hr concentrating on the road ahead and someone overtakes you at +200km/hr. This scares the crap out of people.

(2) Distance perception. Traveling at 160km/hr and the oncoming car is also traveling at 160km/hr. You're closing in one each other at 320km/hr! All of a sudden what you thought was a overtaking gap isn't.

(3) Vehicle performance. It requires more energy for cars to accelerate/overtake whilst doing 130km/hr and accelerating to 150km/hr than it does from 110km/hr to 130km/hr. It takes longer to overtake and you're on the opposite side of the road longer.

(4) Increased Speed means greater braking distances and vehicle instability increases too.

(5) Increased fatigue. Many research studies suggests that increased speed required increases to your concentration which in turn increases fatigue.

(6) The unexpected happens faster. The buffalo crossing the highway has right of way, your reaction times are significantly less.

(7) Driver behavior and attitude. From my experience, even with an open speed limit, most people in the NT drove at 130-140km/hr. I found that driving in Europe and the USA too, that fast drivers drive at 130-140km/hr or 85mph. Perhaps these speeds are what the human brain can comfortably cope with?

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Question: Would 130km/hr work outside NT?

Answer: NO and for a number of reasons.

In my opinion it would not be possible because almost every road I've traveled on (and I've travel extensively) would fail on points a,b,c, d and e. In plain terms nearly every Australian road would need substantial improvement.

Our better motorways and highways have too much traffic on them, Sydney-Newcastle freeway or M1 Brisbane-Gold Coast would have in relative terms 10,000 times the traffic volume per hour than that of NT.

I would have to say that driver behavior was better in NT than it is here in Queensland and much much better than when we lived in Sydney. There would need to be improvements in driver behavior, perhaps training people to cope with higher speed driving is necessary.

Australia's aging population would be be a problem for increased speed limits.

The need for government to be seen to be protecting us from ourselves would not assist the high speed movement.

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I know I've rambled on a fair bit, thanks for your time.

[Road Games]

Originally Posted by XR-CHIEF

Lucky there weren't any cops around..unrestricted doesn't exsist in Aus anymore..the sign refers to default rural limit, which is 110 in NSW i think?

I saw them at Speed on Tweed for the first time near the sugar mill ? And thought woohooo and of course i was doing a bit more than the default limit But in my defense your honour i was trying to escape the greenies ...

[NAK302]

Originally Posted by cheap

We lived in Darwin from 2003 to 2004, during a period where the NT highways had an open speed limit (i.e. no speed limit).

I have legally driven thousands of kms at very high speed, my Road King at +160km/hr regularly from Humpty Doo to Adelaide River or Jabiru. My mates Hyabussa at +260km/hr or my Land Cruiser at +160km/hr traveling to Alice Springs or Camooweal. I think I have some experience at high speed driving.

The NT had a unique situation which allowed for open speed limit:
(a) a requirement to travel long distances in a reasonable time and the NT has limited alternative travel options available
(b) a very good highway, wide, well maintained, graded and extensively cleared of obstruction on both side of the highway, flat terrain with long straights where viability is not an issue
(c) sparse population
(d) extremely low traffic volumes on the NT Highways
(e) generally good and predictable weather conditions, no fog, no snow and little rain for most of the year
(f) a parochial government, fiercely independent and willing to tell Canberra to "get stuffed"

Except for (f) all of the above items exist today.

Beginning in 2007 the NT government removed the open speed limit and placed a 130km/hr limit on the highways. This was done to normalise road speeds across Australia (in reality there was huge political and financial pressure from Canberra's politicians and bureaucrats to remove the open speed limit).

As far as I know NT was the final place on Earth with an open speed limit (despite what the NT opposition says there will never again be legal open speed driving in NT.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Driving at high speed was a buzz , but then it became ordinary. High speed driving did bring some unintended consequences :

(1) Concentration V's Being Alert. You're traveling at high speed 160km/hr concentrating on the road ahead and someone overtakes you at +200km/hr. This scares the crap out of people.

(2) Distance perception. Traveling at 160km/hr and the oncoming car is also traveling at 160km/hr. You're closing in one each other at 320km/hr! All of a sudden what you thought was a overtaking gap isn't.

(3) Vehicle performance. It requires more energy for cars to accelerate/overtake whilst doing 130km/hr and accelerating to 150km/hr than it does from 110km/hr to 130km/hr. It takes longer to overtake and you're on the opposite side of the road longer.

(4) Increased Speed means greater braking distances and vehicle instability increases too.

(5) Increased fatigue. Many research studies suggests that increased speed required increases to your concentration which in turn increases fatigue.

(6) The unexpected happens faster. The buffalo crossing the highway has right of way, your reaction times are significantly less.

(7) Driver behavior and attitude. From my experience, even with an open speed limit, most people in the NT drove at 130-140km/hr. I found that driving in Europe and the USA too, that fast drivers drive at 130-140km/hr or 85mph. Perhaps these speeds are what the human brain can comfortably cope with?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Question: Would 130km/hr work outside NT?

Answer: NO and for a number of reasons.

In my opinion it would not be possible because almost every road I've traveled on (and I've travel extensively) would fail on points a,b,c, d and e. In plain terms nearly every Australian road would need substantial improvement.

Our better motorways and highways have too much traffic on them, Sydney-Newcastle freeway or M1 Brisbane-Gold Coast would have in relative terms 10,000 times the traffic volume per hour than that of NT.

I would have to say that driver behavior was better in NT than it is here in Queensland and much much better than when we lived in Sydney. There would need to be improvements in driver behavior, perhaps training people to cope with higher speed driving is necessary.

Australia's aging population would be be a problem for increased speed limits.

The need for government to be seen to be protecting us from ourselves would not assist the high speed movement.

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I know I've rambled on a fair bit, thanks for your time.

no rambling there mate, i reckon you nailed it.
when i lived there, the CLP were in charge. the chief minister around that time was Marshal Perron who was quite a car enthusiest, which helped.

i guess Clare Martin (ALP) can be thanked for the decision
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2006/s1780096.htm

[Bearman]

Great post by cheap (Post #42). Great insight by someone who has lived there. Rep points to you mate!!

Originally Posted by cheap

(7) Driver behavior and attitude. From my experience, even with an open speed limit, most people in the NT drove at 130-140km/hr. I found that driving in Europe and the USA too, that fast drivers drive at 130-140km/hr or 85mph. Perhaps these speeds are what the human brain can comfortably cope with?

This point in particular is spot on. In my younger days whenever I found myself on suitable roads this is what I found myself travelling at. I reckon 130-140km/h is a very comfortable cruising speed in suitable conditions. These are obviously the days before Constable Kodak was recruited to steal $$ from motorists.

Now in particular the cars are so much more suitable than they were 20-30 years ago.

Originally Posted by cheap

The need for government to be seen to be protecting us from ourselves would not assist the high speed movement.

Read: Nanny state-ism. Once entrenched it's virtually impossible to move. Sounds like Clare Martin has wrecked the place.

[Brent]

+1 for the argument around 130-140kph being a comfortable 'faster' speed that most people tend to settle into on the right roads. I found this to be true overseas as well. It keeps you interested, you cover the miles well, but it allows just that bit up the sleeve for an emergency stop or evasive move that sometimes occurs. All the 200+kph talk is good for bragging rights down at the pub but its not really all that relevant even on excellent divided roads. A quick blat to 200 is one thing, but to settle on that speed and do it for an hour or more on end SAFELY is another.

For me, its the much better 'flow' of traffic in a de-restricted zone that appeals, not the opportunity for outright speed. People settle into their chosen speed grove, the faster cars can overtake, and it breaks down the infruriating freight train nose to tail conga line of traffic that we always see on our highways today.

[BrisVegas]

+2 for 130-140 being an appropriate speed for our open roads. I lived in the states for a few years and found that without speed cameras (at the time), most people settled at around 80mph with the odd person going a little faster to overtake. It's actually a joy to travel long distances on good roads at an appropriate speed. I've driven from Key West to Canada and visited 40 states in my time in America and I miss the easy driving over there. Australia is a massive, sparesely populated country and needs a more realistic speed limit. 130kmh would be better, with some latitude given to drivers who are overtaking trucks and so forth. Cameras cause drivers to focus solely on the speedo needle. The increasingly shocking driving behaviour we see in Oz now is a direct consequence.

[superroo]

Good to see there are some "like" minded people.

I've never driven in the NT, but there is a certain town in NSW 3ish hours from Melbourne which I've driven to a fair few times. Once you get into NSW the road is pretty much dead flat, dead straight (occasional turn), with a clear 50m both sides of the road, and pretty quiet.

I generally bump up the speeds due to point’s b, c, d, e from above. I generally sit around 150 and am a lot more attent than what I was in the previous 2 hours sitting at 100 in the nanny state. This is without stopping either.

As guys have said that feels comfortable. Quick but not too quick in a road car and on a public road. When another car comes the other way, drop the speed down a bit so it's safer.

But that said I'd only do that in the AU. A 100kph is sketchy enough in my daily (90's laser). I also reckon it takes a certain mind frame to do it as well. There are plenty of guys I know that I wouldn't trust doing the posted limit of 100.

The biggest point is drive to the conditions. This is why many people in the NT only drove at 130 even though they could go faster.
However this is something which many people driving do not realise. Just because the speed limit is X, doesn't mean you have to do X

Cheers

[Spinner77]

Here's something interesting. A mainstream, non-motoring journalist endorses Mercedes' safety expert on the the desirability of higher speeds on freeways:

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/a..._well_nod_off/

Andrew Bolt's blog has a large following.

[cheap]

One other item I forgot to mention and that is fuel consumption.

With my Land Cruiser sitting on a steady 100km/hr I can repeatedly get 925-950 km range.

But traveling at 160km/hr the truck simply guzzles, little more than 500km range. High speed means more friction means more fuel.

Some simple maths.

900 km @ 100km/hr means no stops = 9 hours
900 km @ 160km/hr means 1 stop (say 10 minutes/stop) = about 6 hours + an extra 145ltrs of fuel

Over very long distances is where higher speed makes an difference but it comes at a cost.

Cheers

[flappist]

Originally Posted by cheap

One other item I forgot to mention and that is fuel consumption.

With my Land Cruiser sitting on a steady 100km/hr I can repeatedly get 925-950 km range.

But traveling at 160km/hr the truck simply guzzles, little more than 500km range. High speed means more friction means more fuel.

Some simple maths.

900 km @ 100km/hr means no stops = 9 hours
900 km @ 160km/hr means 1 stop (say 10 minutes/stop) = about 6 hours + an extra 145ltrs of fuel

Over very long distances is where higher speed makes an difference but it comes at a cost.

Cheers

Not everyone drives a landcruiser.

My datto can go from Hervey Bay to Airlie (900km +/-) at an average speed of 108km/h (2 weeks ago in fact) in just under 9 hrs with no stops at all.
If I had been able to legally average 130km/h it would have been 8 hours with a break and maybe 10 litres extra fuel.

It comes down to horses for courses, your LC is a far more appropriate vehicle for the bush than my datto whereas the datto is a high speed road vehicle.

Going fast in a 4WD just because you legally can is about as silly as driving a datto across the Simpson desert.......

[GreenMachine]

That's one thing I found in the brief time I had a Ford Laser as a work car in Darwin - At 160kph, the little 4cyl is revving like a whipper snipper and using about 20L/100, which meant I was flat out getting between servos on the Stuart Highway... This was replaced with a VE Commodore that's barely off idle at 160 and probably more fuel efficient than at 110...

[Addz08]

Originally Posted by dylancox

What/who is Humpty Doo? Is that what you guys call the local police up in the NT?

Nah mate its just a little town, not much there...

[Brent]

I'd question the merits of doing 160kph in a 4WD in anything other than the most modern road-going versions (e.g. Porsche Cayenne or BMW X5). You'd be right on the envelope of the vehicle's design parametres at that speed. If something were to go wrong......

[dylancox]

Originally Posted by Addz08

Nah mate its just a little town, not much there...

Gee, Humpty Doo.. what a name? Surely the person who named the place musn't have been serious or was a fan of Humpy Dumpty

[Riksta]

Originally Posted by dylancox

What/who is Humpty Doo? Is that what you guys call the local police up in the NT?

Didn't all the king's horses, and all the king's men, have trouble putting him back together again?

Although how a horse, king's or otherwise, could put ANYTHING back together again is beyond me.

[Spinner77]

A footnote to my post #49 above.

Among the comments on the blog post is this:


"...rumour going around within DoJ that, following the next election in Nov, the Government is considering reducing the current speed camera tolerance from 3km/h to 2km/h as it is estimated this will generate around an extra $40million a year in revenue."

To which someone has replied:

"I can guarantee that won’t happen. The manufacturers of the cameras say that the cameras have a certain tolerance for accuracy. Cutting the ‘official’ tolerance to 2km/h leaves them open to court challenges on that basis."

FWIW, here is my take. Technology improves all the time. All that needs to be done is to prove to the courts that a tolerance of, say, 2km/h is reliable. If that means replacing all the cameras, software and computers, it could still be a great money spinner.

Even if the upgrade cost $40m., it would pay for itself in a year. Not as good as buying a pokie machine that pays for itself in hours, but not bad. Not bad at all.

[grandpa_spec_F6]

Although not high speed related, I was going through a school zone today at the requisite 2k's under the speed limit becuaseifyougoanyfasteryoullkillsomeone, and found that I was watching my speedo like a hawk the majority of the time due the the fact they can find you for going 1k over, and it only takes the slightest bump of the accelerator at those speeds.

Surely this would also apply to open roads as well? I have cruise control so I tend to set and forget, however on the downhill sections this seems to creep just past the limit and I'm forced to brake. I really do agree that we should focus on infrastructure and some 'lateral' thinking, rather than focusing on the the draconian mindset of "if I keep making the penalties harsher it will make a difference".

[Ben73]

The way speed is policed in this country is ******.
It's all about money making. We need to stand up for ourselves, it's going too far. Every week they seam to be thinking up new ideas to fine more people... NOT to stop crashes.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by flappist

Going fast in a 4WD just because you legally can is about as silly as driving a datto across the Simpson desert.......

If I had a Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 I would be going as fast as I can. That's a 4x4 can do 270KM/h