Countdown to new LPG I6 - Page 2

sudszy · 19-02-2011, 10:33 PM

Is there any details about the system, who is developing it? Ford inconjunction with? Purge effect? is that something about having to run it on petrol every time its restarted?

jpd80 · 20-02-2011, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sudszy

Is there any details about the system, who is developing it? Ford inconjunction with? Purge effect? is that something about having to run it on petrol every time its restarted?

Orbital Autogas Systems is supplying both Ford and HSV with componentry for their LPG system. It is Ford's job to develop all the under bonnet installation and plumbing to the tank as well as compliance and reliability.

The liquid LPG system needs a short period of the pump running to purge the gas lines, this is not normally a problem on dual fuel set ups when starting, as the cars usually start on petrol and purging happens during warming up and then it switches over without the driver even realising. A dedicted LPG needs to allow for this purge time before starting.

I'm guessing that the liquid LPG needs time to purge gas out of the lines and have liquid at the injectors ready for start up. Perhaps the delay is seen as too long for customers to accept?

I heard that Commodore is getting dedicated LILPG setup before the end of the year,
what's the bet Holden deliver theirs right in front of Ford stealing EcoLPI's thunder...

prydey · 20-02-2011, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

The liquid LPG system needs a short period of the pump running to purge the gas lines, this is not normally a problem on dual fuel set ups when starting, as the cars usually start on petrol and purging happens during warming up and then it switches over without the driver even realising. A dedicted LPG needs to allow for this purge time before starting.

I'm guessing that the liquid LPG needs time to purge gas out of the lines and have liquid at the injectors ready for start up. Perhaps the delay is seen as too long for customers to accept?

isn't there something about this in the current legislation in australia. something about not being able to purge the lines without engine running or something. i assumed this was the reason for the delay while they try to figure out a way around it.

prydey · 20-02-2011, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resurrection

It will as the driveability will be improved and it will be fitted with the ZF 6-speed auto, unlike the E-gas which has the old DSI 4-speed auto.

what do you mean by improved driveability? my bf2 egas drove fine. did everything i needed it to do. had ample acceleration for a family wagon, cruised great, cheap to run.

jpd80 · 20-02-2011, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

isn't there something about this in the current legislation in australia. something about not being able to purge the lines without engine running or something. i assumed this was the reason for the delay while they try to figure out a way around it.

It may not be purging on the feed side.
It could also be a problem with the exhaust catalyst not sufficiently purging CH4, CO and NOX from the exhaust stream, they're supposed to be able to do it at lower exhaust temperatures than petrol catalysts, perhaps the system needs some fine tuning to get the catalyst working in the prescribed time...

Maybe someone could give us a hint....

ratter · 20-02-2011, 08:28 AM

At present there is a rule that gas can only flow for a couple of seconds unless the motor is running or cranking.
It will be interesting to see how they get around this as current Liquid systems require a purge time longer than this. Whether or not they have a system that does not require the purge or whether they pay to have the rule changed.

jpd80 · 20-02-2011, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratter

At present there is a rule that gas can only flow for a couple of seconds unless the motor is running or cranking.
It will be interesting to see how they get around this as current Liquid systems require a purge time longer than this. Whether or not they have a system that does not require the purge or whether they pay to have the rule changed.

Sounds like liquid systems need increased flow to the injectors and down the return line to
make the system work, I can see how those types of changes could stuff things up if the
flow rates needed for purging in a specific time were not anticipated and met during design.

If that's the case, Holden will also be having similar problem with their dedicated LILPG
system that's due out on Commodores later this year.

ratter · 20-02-2011, 11:12 AM

Any australian car will have issues with these rules at the momment, it will be interesting to see how they get around it.

Franco Cozzo · 20-02-2011, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

The liquid LPG system needs a short period of the pump running to purge the gas lines, this is not normally a problem on dual fuel set ups when starting, as the cars usually start on petrol and purging happens during warming up and then it switches over without the driver even realising. A dedicted LPG needs to allow for this purge time before starting.

Wouldn't it just be like diesel, how you put the ignition on and have to wait like 10 seconds before you can start it?

Or does it take longer?

ratter · 20-02-2011, 12:17 PM

Gas is not allowed to flow for more than a couple of seconds unless the engine is running or cranking, so I'm sure you do not want to be cranking continuously for 30 -50 seconds, sure the starter and the battery may object also

EDManual · 20-02-2011, 12:39 PM

saw a new standard falcon ute test car on dedicated gas getting around geelong. Must be getting close to a fix as they are out being tested?

Joe5619 · 20-02-2011, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EDManual

saw a new standard falcon ute test car on dedicated gas getting around geelong. Must be getting close to a fix as they are out being tested?

Silly question. Hhow can you tell it was deicated gas, but just looking at it??

naddis01 · 20-02-2011, 03:31 PM

You can spot the dedicated utes as they will have 2 of the LPG stcikers on the numberplates as opposed to a single one for converted utes. As for knowing it was a test vehicle, I don't know.

ratter · 20-02-2011, 04:24 PM

The twin stickers are for cars fitted with 2 lpg tanks, nothing to do with the car being a factory gas car.
Again our laws indicate a car converted to LPG must have the diamond plate and sticker (also compliance plate) for each lpg tank fitted to the car

jpd80 · 20-02-2011, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratter

Gas is not allowed to flow for more than a couple of seconds unless the engine is running or cranking, so I'm sure you do not want to be cranking continuously for 30 -50 seconds, sure the starter and the battery may object also

Yes, gas flow out of the injectors is time restricted but that is different to purging by recirculation
of fluid through the return line, if you have a big enough return line you can purge most of the gas
through the return line, that's a different matter to gas flow" out of the system and into the engine.

ratter · 20-02-2011, 05:10 PM

I believe gas is not allowed to flow through the lines not just into the engine

naddis01 · 20-02-2011, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratter

The twin stickers are for cars fitted with 2 lpg tanks, nothing to do with the car being a factory gas car.

Yes I know that, however all I was saying is that a quick way to identify a factory dedicated ute is by the 2 diamonds on the plates because of their setup as opposed to the (generally) single diamond for aftermarket.

ratter · 20-02-2011, 05:26 PM

No worries, but I have had several people think the twin stickers indicate a factory gas system so just clearing that up.
Even an aftermarket systems fitted with 2 tanks requires the twin stickers and compliance plates, so it is not accurate to assume twin stickers indicate a factory system.

jpd80 · 20-02-2011, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratter

I believe gas is not allowed to flow through the lines not just into the engine

Amendment 3 in AS1425 mandates an Automatic Fuel Shut Off Device (AFSOD) that's fitted to prevent flow of liquid in the service line and Vaporiser/injectors unless the ignition is on and the engine cranking.

I think that's the impediment and should be amended for modern injected LPG systems.

ratter · 20-02-2011, 06:23 PM

Correct, at the momment it limits the total gas flow, but it is based on old technology, that's why I think it may take somebody like ford or holden to fund the cost of testing etc to sway the regulators of the law that gas technology has moved forward and our regulations have also.

jpd80 · 20-02-2011, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratter

Correct, at the momment it limits the total gas flow, but it is based on old technology, that's why I think it may take somebody like ford or holden to fund the cost of testing etc to sway the regulators of the law that gas technology has moved forward and our regulations have also.

The standard is quite old having been drawn up in 1989 and revised with amendments up to around 1994 (?).
If the Automotive bodies were to put up experts on the committee, I'm sure the code could be re written and upgraded to allow compliance. Heck, there may even be a Euro ISO or ECE code that does the job famously that could be adopted as the new Aussie code.

prydey · 20-02-2011, 06:33 PM

are these laws only in australia? are there any examples of single fuel liquid injected gas vehicles elsewhere in the world?

i doubt ford would've got to the point of production not knowing these rules. surely they would've known about this little hiccup from the very beginning.

also, regarding the lpg stickers/tags on the rego plates, i don't see many wagons with the double tags, only the utes. wagons also have 2 tanks. larger capacity than utes also.

ratter · 20-02-2011, 06:47 PM

I only have the regs for Vic, so can not comment on other states or countries.

It has been a rule for a while that twin tanks require twin stickers etc, in fact there was a bulletin only in the last couple of months to point out the fact to installers as some where only fitting a single sticker and compliance plate to twin tanked cars.

prydey · 20-02-2011, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratter

It has been a rule for a while that twin tanks require twin stickers etc, in fact there was a bulletin only in the last couple of months to point out the fact to installers as some where only fitting a single sticker and compliance plate to twin tanked cars.

you sure its not just for commercial vehicles? i don't recall ever seeing an egas wagon with 2 tags. a quick browse through carsales confirms this.
anyway, it doesn't matter and is off topic.

ratter · 20-02-2011, 07:26 PM

Just checked the bulletin (had it still on the coffee table at home)

It does not specify commercial vehicles, just mentions mulitple tank instalations

"On Multiple container installations it is a requirement that a compliance plate be fitted for each LPG container"

and then in the section regarding the diamond plate and sticker it says in bold

"Where a vehicle is fitted with more than one container, the vehicle shall carry an additional plate and label as above"

I think they released this bulletin as there was some confusion to some installers

Bossxr8 · 20-02-2011, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

are these laws only in australia? are there any examples of single fuel liquid injected gas vehicles elsewhere in the world?

i doubt ford would've got to the point of production not knowing these rules. surely they would've known about this little hiccup from the very beginning.

also, regarding the lpg stickers/tags on the rego plates, i don't see many wagons with the double tags, only the utes. wagons also have 2 tanks. larger capacity than utes also.

I believe the Ford single fuel system will be the first of its kind.

Bossxr8 · 20-02-2011, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EDManual

saw a new standard falcon ute test car on dedicated gas getting around geelong. Must be getting close to a fix as they are out being tested?

Test engines are fitted to cars very early in the development process, they don't just do it at the last step of testing.

I'd love to know how you came to a conclusion the ute you saw was a test car, i've seen complete LiLPG engines and once fitted to a car there is no way to tell what type of gas system it is using from the outside.

jpd80 · 20-02-2011, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I believe the Ford single fuel system will be the first of its kind.

Unless Holden jumps in front with their dedicated LILPG V6 Commodore,
I can't believe Ford is still dithering around with such an important engine...

PoweredByCNG · 20-02-2011, 09:39 PM

Guys,

Dedicated Liquid LPG Injection has been possible in Europe and North America for years. One example of how the purge can work is the system can be wired to start purging the moment the driver's door is opened. By the time the driver gets into the car and makes him/herself comfortable, the system will have finished purging/priming and be ready to go.

prydey · 20-02-2011, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

I can't believe Ford is still dithering around with such an important engine...

interesting choice of wording. i'm sure they spend all their time just stuffing around out back having a good ol' laugh.

i'm sure they are dong everything they can to make sure a tested, reliable product hits the marketplace as soon as it can.