Diesel Rules

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

When you've got Johnny Truckdriver filling up with 600L of diesel each day it's no surprise there's so much diesel consumed in Australia.

This high usage of diesel is no argument for using diesel in a passenger car.

So what your saying is that there is more trucks on the road now then eh?

You would have to be blind not to realise that there is more diesel cars on the road now.
Id much prefer diesel then LPG

[mik]

the truth be known theres probably not all much difference in cost in the long term of small diesel or old lpg when all things are considered(as long as they don`t have a big malfunction), personally in a car i like the engine characteristics of a petrol/lpg engine, imo the new gas system is just the bee knee`s and diesel just would`nt get a look in unless its a large commercial vehicle, but it comes back to personal preference i guess.

[FGII-XR6]

you notice how the metal is a golden colour? that is from the contaminants of petrol combustion a well maintained LPG engine with 500K will still be silver

Originally Posted by irish2

My petrol daily has ~301000km on the clock. It is perfect under the rocker cover, as it should be with 7500k oil changes.

[stang65]

Don`t the lpg gas tanks have to be checked and replaced every so often? Could this be something that worries people?$$$$ also the stigma of the tanks blowing up in an accident or a gas leak in the boot?

[Mr Hardware]

Originally Posted by DJM83

So what your saying is that there is more trucks on the road now then eh?

You would have to be blind not to realise that there is more diesel cars on the road now.
Id much prefer diesel then LPG

You've misinterpreted what I am saying - I full well know that there are more diesel cars on the roads, my point is I question most diesel buyer's motives (and sums) and I'm saying these graphs in no way should advocate having a diesel car.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by stang65

Don`t the lpg gas tanks have to be checked and replaced every so often? Could this be something that worries people?$$$$ also the stigma of the tanks blowing up in an accident or a gas leak in the boot?

Yeah they gotta be pressure tested after 10 years I think it is.

[mik]

Originally Posted by stang65

Don`t the lpg gas tanks have to be checked and replaced every so often? Could this be something that worries people?$$$$ also the stigma of the tanks blowing up in an accident or a gas leak in the boot?

yeah they do, its not a lot of dollars, the valves and hose fittings are vented to outside the car so gas should not get into the boot.

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by 302 XC

LPG consumes upto 30% more volume than petrol

I would be jumping up and down if any gas car was returning that sort of consumption even an old mixer ring system. with todays modern injected systems if they are well installed you get next to no difference in consumption

[sgt_doofey]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Yeah they gotta be pressure tested after 10 years I think it is.

Yep, 10 years. Had mine done last year and the tank hasn't leaked or blown up in that time. Must be one of the lucky few then!

The tanks are designed to not explode either. They are designed to vent gas should the pressure inside them build up. That means that only the venting gas will catch fire, not the tank itself explode.

http://www.lpgautogas.com.au/index.cfm?Action=MyFleet#7

Anyway, this is all completely off topic for the original post being that diesel usage is now higher than petrol usage in the country.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by russellw

I'm not suggesting it is - but as the rate of diesel use has increased faster than the growth in heavy vehicles and we know that the percentage of diesel passenger vehicles has been climbing rapidly these last few years it is indicative of a buyer trend that any manufacturer can ignore at their peril.
Cheers
Russ

Not being critical of that assumption, but there is no data provided to say there hasnt been a like for like increase in the usage of heavy vehicles in that time. Not suggesting it hasnt (and you may have data to prove otherwise), but at the moment its just an assumption

Theres no doubt that diesel car sales have grown in last few years, but as the graph indicates diesel use started taking off around 2003. I can pinpoint alot of mines and commodity export business's (very high users of diesel), that started ramp up during this period.

Your chart indicates about 5% take up of LPG. people need to rememebr that Australia currently only has an LPG reserve of around 48 years at current use. Can you imagine all the infrastructure that would need to be changed if everyone was to switch over, Only then to have the reserves run out in 2.4 years (due to 20 times more people using it)

[stang65]

Originally Posted by sgt_doofey

Yep, 10 years. Had mine done last year and the tank hasn't leaked or blown up in that time. Must be one of the lucky few then!

The tanks are designed to not explode either. They are designed to vent gas should the pressure inside them build up. That means that only the venting gas will catch fire, not the tank itself explode.

http://www.lpgautogas.com.au/index.cfm?Action=MyFleet#7

Anyway, this is all completely off topic for the original post being that diesel usage is now higher than petrol usage in the country.

There was that one time on the new that one blew up at the servo i think?
Stuff it did a google
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&so...W3Ox-w&cad=rja

They blamed that on a possible shoddy installation but then I found this
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...cigarette.html

I guess the best thing would be that at least with Ford it is factory fitted.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

you notice how the metal is a golden colour? that is from the contaminants of petrol combustion a well maintained LPG engine with 500K will still be silver

The metal is actually still silver. Will post up a pic tomorrow if I get back from the pub before dark.

[mik]

i guess all fuel is dangerouse if it goes bad, but at least gas does`nt stick to you, imagine being in this car ........
http://www.sciencephoto.com/images/d...l?id=846640271

[spvd02]

People who buy diesel simply cannot be doing it to save money, as they use marginally less and fuel cost is significantly higher than petrol. What's more, with further refinement necessary for diesel fuel in the future, it will only get more expensive.

If people were trying to save money, they would buy a modern LPG powered vehicle. It is cheaper to run, by far, than the equivalent diesel, and will remain that way. All those who talk about the upcoming government excise on LPG: it will only have 1/3 the level of excise of diesel or petrol. How is that supposed to be a put-off for buying LPG?

In future applications, high-tech LPG is a more viable option than diesel, as it will cost the consumer less to own. The only reason diesel tech is so far ahead is because diesel is cheaper in Europe. When LPG tech is up to scratch, in Australia it is the way to go.

Even the Territory diesel uses an average of 10L/100km. ECOLpi Falcon will use around 12-13L/100km, and LPG is currently close to 1/3 the price. The ECOLpi Falcon could use an average of 25L/100km in order to cost the same amount as running a Territory diesel. I certainly wouldn't be happy paying for that at the pump each time.

Why do some show such an aversion to a proper LPG system when the benefits are so obvious? When done properly, LPG is absolutely brilliant, and the ECOLpi will be a classic example of how brilliant it can be. Some need to get their head out of the diesel cloud and look at options in a more logical way, where the only conclusion they can draw is that LPG is the way forward for Australian motorists.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

You've misinterpreted what I am saying - I full well know that there are more diesel cars on the roads, my point is I question most diesel buyer's motives (and sums) and I'm saying these graphs in no way should advocate having a diesel car.

That wasnt the point of the graph anyway.
Why question their motives, because its not LPG?

[Mr Hardware]

Originally Posted by DJM83

That wasnt the point of the graph anyway.
Why question their motives, because its not LPG?

Once again, I am aware of that. However I fear that some people may interpret the graph in that way.
Because I think a lot of people need to separate diesels from a DI turbo motor, regardless of the fuel it drinks. If you have a DI turbo 4-cyl, it's going to provide very good performance and economy, petrol or diesel. So people need to get it out of their heads that diesel is the answer, because it is not. Diesel has more oil in it than petrol! So the graph may say that more diesel now gets consumed than petrol, but what it doesn't say is that far more oil is being consumed, the real concern.

[naddis01]

I am assuming the graph includes diesel used by the trucking industry? I guess they would be using a fair bit each. Hell we have used over 125000L of the stuff on the farm in the past few years. So to me its not all that surprising.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by naddis01

I am assuming the graph includes diesel used by the trucking industry?

Is it just diesel used in road vehicles or total diesel used?

Just figured out my work probably uses about 40,000L of diesel every day.
I wonder where all this comes from.

[drew`SEVNT5]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

You've misinterpreted what I am saying - I full well know that there are more diesel cars on the roads, my point is I question most diesel buyer's motives (and sums) and I'm saying these graphs in no way should advocate having a diesel car.

No, the fact that Diesels are a damn good alternative IS the advocate for having a diesel car.




































Better than those mobile-bombs that are LPG powered cars, anyhow........

[Ben73]

No one to very few people are going to change their opinion due to a random on an internet forum telling them they are wrong.

So lets just say Diesel sucks. LPG Sucks. Petrol sucks.
The only real option is Electricity!!!!

Nah TBH I would prefer straight petrol cars any day, because ATM I am not really fussed on fuel costs.

[sgt_doofey]

Originally Posted by spvd02

People who buy diesel simply cannot be doing it to save money, as they use marginally less and fuel cost is significantly higher than petrol. What's more, with further refinement necessary for diesel fuel in the future, it will only get more expensive.

Diesel's use significantly less fuel than it's petrol equivalent. Diesel is also the least refined fuel out of the lot.

If people were trying to save money, they would buy a modern LPG powered vehicle. It is cheaper to run, by far, than the equivalent diesel, and will remain that way.

I have a diesel Peugeot 2.0L and an EL Falcon on LPG. Both give me similar torque figures, the Falcon has more killer wasps though. On a cents per kilometre cost, they are about neck and neck with LPG probably a touch in front of diesel, but it's such a minute amount, it doesn't change the equation.

Originally Posted by drew`SEVNT5

Better than those mobile-bombs that are LPG powered cars, anyhow........

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showpos...5&postcount=39

[302 XC]

spvd02

Diesels use alot more than significantly less fuel than a petrol of the same equivelant
I wrote in a post above the difference between two 4.2 L patrols
(1 petrol and 1 diesel)
10-12L per 100Ks is a huge difference
(About 1/2)

A 1984 Turbo diesel patrol ute near finished here
Will get around 12L/100Ks
For a 2 tonne (empty) near 30 years old diesel i aint complaining
An MQ 3.3L diesel n/a 4 speed wagon my mate has (my old one)
Returns on a run 10L/100Ks
Wieghs near 3 tonne, 500,000Ks on original
These are old skool diesels not high tech diesels

Most are on the beleif that diesels are stinky,smelly,oil burners,black smoking old trucks
Diesels have come along way since that myth
Its all personal preference
Id be surprised how many actually buy a car for the economy
OR
Buy because thats what they want

Why arent trucks petrol ???
Fuel economy is one
Wanna try and get the power the diesels put out in the equivelant size petrol
And get the Ks outta the motors

[spvd02]

True, but remember I was emphasizing 'modern' LPG. The old Patrols and Landcruisers show a huge difference in consumption, whereas if we compare Territory vs Territory, the difference is only small. It shows the gap between petrol and diesel has closed somewhat with the improvements in technology. The ECOboost will also demonstrate this, to an even larger extent.

Trucks use Diesel for more reasons than just fuel consumption. Torque at low RPM would be ideal for a truck, with less wear and tear on other components. I'm sure there are lots of reasons diesel is better in that application. But this doesn't necessarily transfer to passenger cars. Sure, there are some benefits to diesel, but there are, in my opinion, also drawbacks.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by Ben73

Is it just diesel used in road vehicles or total diesel used?

It is all diesel fuel consumed by vehicles. It does not include industrial uses of other kinds as that data is recorded separately.

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Not being critical of that assumption, but there is no data provided to say there hasnt been a like for like increase in the usage of heavy vehicles in that time. Not suggesting it hasnt (and you may have data to prove otherwise), but at the moment its just an assumption

As you should well know, I do have supporting data for those conclusions - not assumptions. Take the time to read through the monthly sales statistics in the tech portal if you wish to verify that for yourself but the following facts are clear:

1. Sales of passenger diesel vehicles have increased from 7,171 in 2005 to 45,626 in 2010.
2. Sales of diesel powered SUV's have also climbed from 34,367 to 79,929 in the same period.
3. Overall sales of diesel powered non heavy vehicles has doubled in the same period.
4. Sales of trucks, conversely have either just remained steady (in the lighter categories) or dropped significantly over the last 5 years.

All of this while the total market has only grown by just over 5% for the same period.

Cheers
Russ

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by drew`SEVNT5

No, the fact that Diesels are a damn good alternative IS the advocate for having a diesel car.



Better than those mobile-bombs that are LPG powered cars, anyhow........

Here here

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by drew`SEVNT5

No, the fact that Diesels are a damn good alternative IS the advocate for having a diesel car.
















Better than those mobile-bombs that are LPG powered cars, anyhow........

Sorry but what a load of crap.

Yes diesels are good, very good. But it's only lately that ford and a few others have pulled their fingers out in oz.

At the moment diesels are enjoying a linked image with euro cars, so it must be good yeah? /sarcasm

An LPG car is no different to any other fuel....thru are all flammable! /Sherlock

[302 XC]

Some good additional facts Russ
With the addition sales of diesel vehicles ,ya wonder why diesel fuel at the pump has gone up
Like anything the government does
Jump on the wagon and milk it for its worth

I wonder here for a sec
If LPG powered cars had that sorta jump in sales ,would there be an increase in LPG at the pump
You betcha

[Franco Cozzo]

I went diesel because I wanted something different, I also quite like the noise they make.

Plus the torque is amazing, I've come from Ford Festiva, Mazda 323, Ford Fiesta , into a TDCI Focus.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by 302 XC

Some good additional facts Russ
With the addition sales of diesel vehicles ,ya wonder why diesel fuel at the pump has gone up
Like anything the government does
Jump on the wagon and milk it for its worth
I wonder here for a sec
If LPG powered cars had that sorta jump in sales ,would there be an increase in LPG at the pump
You betcha

Your question raises the point that if you are too slow in following the trend (as the thread is trying to cover), then it may seem pointless later on to try and go with the trend. Diesel used to be cheaper in Australia 5 to 10 years ago, due to the fact that Diesel is basically a by product of producing petrol. With alot of australias refined products coming from asian countries, there was always strong demand for petrol but basically the refiners were having a hard time trying to get rid of their diesel. With strong growth in china and india over the last few years (heavy users of diesel), they now have very eager buyers for the diesel. Australian diesel buyers now have to compete with what ever prices the chinese and indians are willing to pay for the diesel.

The sellers of diesel cars (in australia) 5 years ago were able to get in on the trend because they were already selling diesel cars in overseas markets. Planning for (or releasing ) a diesel powered car in australia now, may just be a little bit behind the trend line.

In fact as the chart shows, diesel consumption in australia now exceeds petrol consumption (and whilst australian industry sets itself up for being huge consumers of diesel ie mining etc, and this may not be repeated all around the world) , and most refineries in the world set to produce basically 2 litres of petrol for every litre of diesel, then looking at the consumption figures and the current price differential in petrol/ diesel, I would assume most manufacturers are guessing this isnt a trend that they want to be following in the future.

[wrongwaynorris]

In 1990 in the UK 3% of pasenger car sales were diesel , last year that figure has climbed to 39% . As everyday cars they are a LOT more efficient and vastly cheaper to both run and own . My missus and I are actually seriously looking at an Econetic as her next car . 1080 kilometres from 40 litres , even at $1.50 a litre thats still way way way more economical than any petrol car and even those poxy Prius Hybrids