3L - 195kw, 620nm, 6.1L/100km - Build a bloody Turbo Diesel Falcon already!

[Buntz]

I think that Ford need to start toying with some premium price options... like an 8 speed gear box.

If people will pay more to use less... then they could sell a few of those.

[spvd02]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

It seems you have not driven a modern turbo diesel. Why do you think that BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar etc are selling so many diesels? Why is it that 70% of new cars sold in europe are diesel? Could it be because they offer fuel economy, torque and lowered emissions improvements?

The extra expense of the diesel sale price is more than made up for when you consider the better fuel consumption, the higher resale of the diesel and the fact that many modern petrol cars (particularly turbo models) will not run on anything less than 95 octane fuel (which is equivalent price to diesel).

For those that don't think a diesel can perform, take a BMW 330D for a drive, 180 kw and 520 nm makes these things move. Also lets not forget what Audi has done with one in a certain 24 hr race.

Ford needs to do something to get with the times, a fuel consumption of 9.9L/100km is not considered good anymore, not when you look at the figures of its competitors.

A diesel offers better consumption and more torque than a larger size petrol, what's not to love in a large family car? Considering Falcon sales in the last few years, it seems they are doing something wrong, a real shame as the rest of the car is so good.

Why is it that high-end diesels are always referred when trying to prove they are so good? I could refer to a Bugatti Veyron to prove how good petrols are, but it's obviously pointless. A TD from Audi, BMW, or Mercedes would double Falcon's price.

Comparing apples with apples, Caradvice by far preferred the RWD petrol Terry over any of the Diesels. The same would be the case with the Falcon, were it available. Fuel economy difference? There was only 2L/100km difference, the petrol using just over 10L/100, despite the fact the engines were in a heavy car (petrol is supposed to be thirsty under load?)

So yes, in reality its hard to justify the advantage of owning a diesel version of the Falcon. For Ford to produce one would make a lot of sense, as there are many diesel die-hards who would buy it just because it has a turbo-diesel. In case you hadn't noticed, I would not be craving for one.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by spvd02

Considering the alternative is a 2.3L n/a petrol, there's no surprises there. If there were as many ECOboost style engines available as turbo diesels, it'd be interesting to see how diesel would fare then.

Now that is an interesting point, the reason Ford NA is going for Ecoboost engines in cars and light trucks ahead
of diesels is because of their tight NOX emission limits which requires expensive exhaust after treatment to comply.
Adding that to the diesel premium makes the equation unworkable and turbo DI Petrol engines far easier to work with.

It will be interesting to see what happens with European diesels when they have to meet Euro 6 in a few years,
many are predicting that manufacturers will hit an economic wall as expensive Urea after treatment adds
extra cost to engines and negates any advantage they had with running costs over DI turbo petrol engines.

[jpd80]

I also noticed that the AWD I-6 Territory is no more, maybe it's because
12.5 l/100 km doesn't cut it anymore against 11.5 l/100 km competition.

Perhaps I'm looking at Ford's technology adoption the wrong way around,
the government gave Ford $40 million to develop vehicles to support the
three different engine strategies: V6 diesel, I-6 EcoLPI and Ecoboost I-4.

It may be a case of establishing a technology beach head with government
funding and then extending those applications as market needs dictate.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Almost half the mondeo's on carsales are diesel. 322/725
BMW: 1270/7561....now lets go 2005-present....1228/4129
Audi: 663/3508...2005-present...657/2628

Yup, diesels definately arent increasing in popularity.....

Every single car on carsales has one thing in common......

THEY HAVE NOT BEEN SOLD.....

[jpd80]

When human beings are lead by their emotions, they can make strange choices.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by jpd80

When human beings are lead by their emotions, they can make strange choices.

Something for which FPV & HSV are very, very thankful......

[rag top]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yep diesels are a huge success in Australia.

Other than the 4WD heroes just how many diesel cars do you ACTUALLY see on the road?

Quite a few on the road here. Most are not recognisable from their petrol stable mates.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Didn't someone a few weeks ago post that diesel has just overtaken petrol as the most popular fuel being sold?

I personally do think that Falcon could have benefited from a diesel.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Didn't someone a few weeks ago post that diesel has just overtaken petrol as the most popular fuel being sold?

I personally do think that Falcon could have benefited from a diesel.

Take off the large trucks and 4WD heroes.

I work with quite a number of car dealers and outside the 4WDs diesels are better than hybrids but not by all that much.

Everyone seems to fixate on the price of fuel and usage.

A few years ago I did the sums on the difference between a diesel landcruiser and petrol landcruiser while sitting at a Toyota dealer waiting for some server updates to finish.

It worked out at the time that it would have taken 450,000km before the difference in the cost of fuel squared up the cost of the vehicles and that was not taking into account the horrendously expensive diesel services.

When I asked the sales manager why anyone bought diesel he replied the same reason people by stripes on the cars (I was in my GT-P at the time), because it makes them feel good.....

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by flappist

Everyone seems to fixate on the price of fuel and usage.

Diesel is slowly on the climb but as you said mostly SUVs where it's more justified.

I'm wondering about "herd mentality", will the mob be spooked enough by higher fuel prices to run off demanding diesel
options without considering the cost of ownership and justifying the purchase by imagining a higher residual value...

[Franco Cozzo]

Maybe people like the way diesel drives?

I know I prefer my TDCI Focus over the NA 2L 4 cylinder petrol models.

[Kryton]

V8's make very little sense too but funny how some of those against a Diesel have a V8 parked in their drive way.
Pretty simple - dont like Diesel - dont buy it nor whinge about the costs of keeping one.

[spvd02]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Maybe people like the way diesel drives?

I know I prefer my TDCI Focus over the NA 2L 4 cylinder petrol models.

I would also prefer the TDCI in your case. It's a much stronger engine. Focus ECOboost on the other hand...

[flappist]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Diesel is slowly on the climb but as you said mostly SUVs where it's more justified.

I'm wondering about "herd mentality", will the mob be spooked enough by higher fuel prices to run off demanding diesel
options without considering the cost of ownership and justifying the purchase by imagining a higher residual value...

Remember the "econo-gauges" of the 80s when the price of petrol was approaching 80c/l and we would all be driving electric gold buggies by the year 2000?

Oh and V8s would only be seen in museums.......

[SumoDog68]

Diesel are more efficient engine design when compared to spark ignition engine. When force fed they produce excellent torque and combine well with automatic transmission . Automatics are tranny of choice in Oz.
Falcon with a decent 6cyl diesel would expand Falcon customer base. Even Taxi industry would buy them.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by flappist

Take off the large trucks and 4WD heroes.

I work with quite a number of car dealers and outside the 4WDs diesels are better than hybrids but not by all that much.

Everyone seems to fixate on the price of fuel and usage.

A few years ago I did the sums on the difference between a diesel landcruiser and petrol landcruiser while sitting at a Toyota dealer waiting for some server updates to finish.

It worked out at the time that it would have taken 450,000km before the difference in the cost of fuel squared up the cost of the vehicles and that was not taking into account the horrendously expensive diesel services.

When I asked the sales manager why anyone bought diesel he replied the same reason people by stripes on the cars (I was in my GT-P at the time), because it makes them feel good.....

I don't really like you. But you're also in I.T. (it would seem) and you have a point.

Diesels sell because of the perceived benefits. But they are costly to service, mostly because they almost all include turbos.

LPG is Ford's answer. And to spearhead that strike, I think adding an NA LPG 4 cyl donk along side the EcoBoost will make Falcon more attractive.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by flappist

Remember the "econo-gauges" of the 80s when the price of petrol was approaching 80c/l and we would all be driving electric gold buggies by the year 2000?

Oh and V8s would only be seen in museums.......

Yes those big "Guilt-o-Meters" that were worse than reverse tachometers every time you touched the throttle.

As soon as fuel prices eased all the apocalyptic ravings stopped those gauges magically disappeared....


Performance always finds a way back, mostly because people still want it and some will pay handsomely for it.

[vztrt]

I could see a Diesel Falcon ute more popular then the sedan. Problem is the cost to get the V6 (cause it would be the one from the Terri) into the sedan will cost big. I guess if they had have got the duratec petrol in it would be more cost effective.

But Ford has come out and said that they don't see that big of a market for the sedan as opposed to the SUV market which diesel sales make up 50% of the market.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by spvd02

The I6 on offer is superb; now go and enjoy it. If anything, it's the EcoLPI we should be looking forward to, as it will cost far less to run than a diesel option in the Falcon.

private buyers by and large DONT WANT LPG. they do want diesel.

technical arguments aside, Ford needs to follow the market, not try and convince buyers to shift their thinking.

[spvd02]

Originally Posted by b0son

private buyers by and large DONT WANT LPG. they do want diesel.

technical arguments aside, Ford needs to follow the market, not try and convince buyers to shift their thinking.

True, but what if the private buyers come to their senses and DO have a shift in their thinking, which is inevitable in the long-run when it becomes common knowledge that LPG is definitely the more economical choice in Australia?

All that LPG has needed is for the technology to catch up, and now it has, making it a more favourable option than diesel. The buying public do generally want what's best, and it shouldn't take too long for them to realise that in Aus, it's LPG.

Think of why there was a shift to diesel in the first place - then work out what the next shift might be: Could there be a movement away from diesel in favour of LPG? I am sure the case for diesel will weaken over time, esp. as it becomes more expensive to run (e.g. urea injection).

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by spvd02

True, but what if the private buyers come to their senses and DO have a shift in their thinking, which is inevitable in the long-run when it becomes common knowledge that LPG is definitely the more economical choice in Australia?

All that LPG has needed is for the technology to catch up, and now it has, making it a more favourable option than diesel. The buying public do generally want what's best, and it shouldn't take too long for them to realise that in Aus, it's LPG.

Think of why there was a shift to diesel in the first place - then work out what the next shift might be: Could there be a movement away from diesel in favour of LPG? I am sure the case for diesel will weaken over time, esp. as it becomes more expensive to run (e.g. urea injection).

LPG (at this current point in time) is not the most economical everywhere in Australia (mind you it is in the largest portion of the market).

The future will show how our fuel preference will be viewed. But seeing as China are planning on moving away from Australia in about 10 years it may become the best choice. Or as a free market it will become quite expensive. But all car companies need to keep their options open for different markets.

[kpcart]

Would i be right in saying that most people that really dislike diesel are the people that call themselves performance car enthusiasts?
This is what is to be disliked about diesel:
a diesel car is slower compared to the petrol equivalent, but the gap isnt as large as it used to be and infact many diesels can now be considered fast. also diesels dont sound as nice to car enthusiasts and often sound like a truck. but that is also changing with technological improvement, there are very quiet diesels available now, and with alloy technology and higher rev limits that keep coming, some of the newer diesels actually sound quite nice to people who like mechanical noise. also there is the feel of throttle control, many turbo diesels dont provide good feedback to the driver through the right foot, their is a feeling of lag and electronic control and you dont feel as direct with the throttle as a petrol car, but then again this also applies to some turbo-petrol cars.

For drivers who drive sedately on public roads (the majority), the great torque is more desirable to most people not interested in racing their engines. modern diesels are leisurely, much like v8s were a few decades ago compared to there 4 and 6 cylinder counterparts.
Diesel is now also closing the performance gap, it can work well in sports cars, just look at the last 5 years in lemans motoracing where audi and peugeout Turbo Diesels have beaten every single petrol engined lemans car (at less then half the engine rpm).
What impresses me most about diesel is the technological advances of the engines in the past 20 years, the engine spec numbers suggest there has been much more advance in diesel engines then petrol engines. for that reason they are becoming desirable, they are actually seen as cutting edge technology by many people now.
in the last 30 years fords I6 has increased torque from about 300nm to about 400nm, and power from about 110kw to 195kw. while in the same time many car companies that offered diesels that made 45kw and 200nm now make 125kw and 400nm with the same capacity. AND offer better low end torque and better economy then petrol equivalents. (the I6 / TD comparison is just based on commuter cars, not things like XR6Turbo as most TD cars dont offer performance versions, but they might soon)

You must admit, a 2.2L kia making more torque and much better economy then the great Ford I6 is bloody impressive.

Another great thing Ford could do is make a small capacity I6 direct injection with turbo. Holden is going to build a 2.8 turbo v6 commodore with higher power and torque then the ford 4l and also much better fuel economy.

lets see how the direct injection turbo 4cyl falcon goes, i think they should have at least used a v6 direct injection turbo if they want to go down this route, they need to try to compete with holden not try to distance themselves from them.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by spvd02

True, but what if the private buyers come to their senses and DO have a shift in their thinking, which is inevitable in the long-run when it becomes common knowledge that LPG is definitely the more economical choice in Australia?

Oil companies aren't stupid, if a lot of petrol/diesel customers switch to gas
then they will bump the price up to protect their own income, just like diesel.

The other problem with LPG is that it creates far more CO2 than diesel due
to the amount of fuel consumed, if the government is serious about carbon
reduction they should be steering people away from LPG not towards it.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by jpd80

.

The other problem with LPG is that it creates far more CO2 than diesel due
to the amount of fuel consumed, if the government is serious about carbon
reduction they should be steering people away from LPG not towards it.

Ah, no. The amount of CO2 produced in burning lpg per unit of energy is less than petrol, about 10-15%.

You can confirm this idea by looking at the grams of co2/km consumption for the factory equipped lpg gas vehicles, though in practice with engines that aren't optimised for lpg(still run petrol as well) the figures are only about 2-3% better

You are confusing the volume of lpg used with its carbon content and energy value.

Its a less dense fuel than petrol, therefore more volume is used to go the same distance as petrol. However, when the mass of lpg versus the mass of petrol used in fuel consumption, lpg uses less, lpg has slightly more energy per kg.

[arm79]

Go back and read the comments Ford made about diesel in a Falcon in their press releases.

Market research simply said the average buyer WOULD NOT pay the extra $3000 to $4000 for a diesel over the base petrol equivalent. That would mean an XT Falcon would have an RRP of around $43k.

Then add the extra fuel costs and higher servicing costs. Performance is not the issue, money is.

But if the buyer had the option of a $600 advanced gas system or a no cost 4 cylinder engine, they would take it up. Servicing costs would be the same and they'd spend less on fuel.

95% of Aussies, and yes I'm including most of you here, talk big, but in reality your wallets are full of dust and cobwebs. Tis the reason why there are more than 10,000 Great Wall crap boxes on our roads already, with another 10,000 expected to be sold this year. Money does the talking.

Ford can't afford to spend the $$$ on a diesel Falcon on dreamers, knowing the uptake would be similar to the XR8 of old.

Besides, most Aussies treat their cars like crap. Servicing and repairs usually take second place to everything else. An I6 can take a raping and come through squeaky clean. Can a modern diesel, with all its advanced emission requirements, do the same thing. One of the ladies here at work had a diesel Mondeo. The car spent too much of its time complaining about emissions problems and particulate filters needing a clean. She was more than happy to see it sold.

I'm all for Ford doing something that will lengthen the longevity of the Falcon model in Australia. But its got to be something the average buyer wants and will pay for.

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by arm79

The car spent too much of its time complaining about emissions problems and particulate filters needing a clean. She was more than happy to see it sold.

Thats what happens when the longest trip the car does is the 5 minutes to the shops or work.

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by arm79

Besides, most Aussies treat their cars like crap. Servicing and repairs usually take second place to everything else. An I6 can take a raping and come through squeaky clean. Can a modern diesel, with all its advanced emission requirements, do the same thing. One of the ladies here at work had a diesel Mondeo. The car spent too much of its time complaining about emissions problems and particulate filters needing a clean. She was more than happy to see it sold.

Very true. I am always suprised at how badly some people treat their cars. And they complain when stuff goes wrong with them!

[Fair302]

Funny read.

Diesel isn't for everyone, but should be offered as an option. Why Falcon diesel? Some people just want a Falcon. We have Mondeo diesel? Some people prefer a larger car with a larger engine, even diesel lovers. Diesel isn't worth the cost over petrol? Neither is the cost of owning a V8 or other high performance car in a country where you get treated as an axe murderer when you speed. They prob cost more to purchase, use more fuel, cost more in service and a diesel will last longer and return more resale. Plus any of the nay sayers ever driven a modern diesel passenger vehicle? Let alone a high performance one or dare I say a tuned TDI?

Yes diesel in Europe is cheaper but the cost of purchasing a diesel over petrol is much higher so are road cost.

[arm79]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Thats what happens when the longest trip the car does is the 5 minutes to the shops or work.

Correct. And how many Falcon's would this apply to. I'd say near 50%.

I'm also to understand that heavy stop start traffic can cause the same issue.

I remember reading about a Jag long term tester in Wheels. Cant remember if it was the 2.7 or 3.0 V6. But the journo got the warning just driving around Sydney, to and from work. He checked the manual which said "he MUST do at least 100km of freeway driving to try and clear the filter, and if the warning remained, back to the dealer". So he had to spend a day taking the car on a long drive to try fix it.

He also called a dealer and was told that should the filter not clear, it's not covered by warranty. It's a consumable... And the repair bill would be between $400 and $1000, depending on exactly what was required.

Now, as the typical Aussie owner of a diesel Falcon, who expects the thing to take him wherever he wants rain, hail or shine after getting it serviced every 40,000km, I dare say this kind of requirement wouldnt go over to well. Would damage the reputation of the car even more.

It might be a typical part of of the SUV/4WD and prestige vehicle ownership experience... And its just accepted. But it wouldn't be accepted as part of the supposed rugged and reliable family hack image we expect from a Falcon.

I know its off topic here, but I think the Falcons we drive now are far too advanced and techy compared to what the average buyer wants. ZF 6 speeds are awesome, but I wonder if the average buyer knows its costs $1000 to service and flush the oil when they buy the car. Or that spark plugs are $20 each. Or if you chip/scratch the alloy lower control arm, its unservicable and dangerous and needs to be replaed at the cost of $500 per side. Or the offset of their pretty alloy wheels allows them to buckle easily. Or the front discs on an XR6T/G6ET are something like $280 a side. It's the kind of expense i'd expect in something BMW or Merc.