Why does the 2015/2016 Falcon need to have a V6?

[Bossxr8]

People are forgetting if that a Falcon goes FWD it can't have either the I6 or a V8.

It will be Ecoboost 4, V6 and maybe Ecoboost V6. It will be a sad day indeed, and I hope they don't sully the Falcon name by putting it on some Yank crap FWD hunk of shizzen. Call it something else cause it won't be a Falcon in any way shape or form.

A bit ominous walking out the gate yesterday and seing a Taurus, Fusion and Edge going into Product Development. A few employees took it as getting it rubbed in their faces that they won't have jobs in 5 years time.

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

All these people that keep going on & on & on & on & on about the I6, get over it!! As a buyer of BRAND NEW Falcons, I don't give a stuff if it is V6 or I6 as long as it makes all the right numbers... Bring on an Ecoboost V6 any day of the current I6.. That is high vs. low tech no matter what any I6 lover tries to tell me!! And engine that has over 120 patents (Ecoboost) vs. one that has none (I6) speaks volumes!!

And people going on about a soulless commodore.. truelly dont know where to start with you!!

so true the F6 is a low tech boat anchor [/sarcasm] 310 KW 565 NM ( only 5 NM less than a GT) from a 4.0L 6 is up there with GT level performance, not bad for a "low tech engine"
I would stack an F6 against any V6 ( and most V8) production car available for under $100K
how does a patent ( or 120 ) make the engine superior?

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

All these people that keep going on & on & on & on & on about the I6, get over it!! As a buyer of BRAND NEW Falcons, I don't give a stuff if it is V6 or I6 as long as it makes all the right numbers... Bring on an Ecoboost V6 any day of the current I6.. That is high vs. low tech no matter what any I6 lover tries to tell me!! And engine that has over 120 patents (Ecoboost) vs. one that has none (I6) speaks volumes!!

And people going on about a soulless commodore.. truelly dont know where to start with you!!

I care. Even if a V6 makes the same numbers as an I6, it will most likely make them at higher revs, with comparatively little low down torque, and plenty of noise, vibration and harshness. By the way, I still haven't seen a comparably sized V6 in a comparably priced car make comparable numbers to the I6 (i.e. without a torque deficit)

For those that don't believe that an inline six is inherently superior to a V6:
http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...ne/smooth3.htm

This alson wasn't about the EcoBoost V6, this was about the naturally aspirated six. I still think that the EcoBoost 4 is a much better option; obviously I haven't driven the thing, but I haven't seen any data to make me change my mind.

Regarding the number of patents, isn't that just more things to fix (undoubtedly in place in order to alleviate the limitations inherent in a V6 engine layout)? We already know how reliable the I6 is.

'Soulless' is one way to describe the Commodore... I personally prefer to call it 'gutless'

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

so true the F6 is a low tech boat anchor [/sarcasm] 310 KW 565 NM from a 4.0L 6 is up there with GT level performance, not bad for a "low tech engine"
I would stack an F6 against any V6 ( and most V8) production car available for under $100K
how does a patent ( or 120 ) make the engine superior?

Exactly. Anyway, why does everyone consider the Dual VCT 4.0i OHC to be 'low tech', when the 3.5 V6 only has inlet VCT?

By the way, I consider the I6 engine layout to be 'high tech'

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

People are forgetting if that a Falcon goes FWD it can't have either the I6 or a V8.

It will be Ecoboost 4, V6 and maybe Ecoboost V6. It will be a sad day indeed, and I hope they don't sully the Falcon name by putting it on some Yank crap FWD hunk of shizzen. Call it something else cause it won't be a Falcon in any way shape or form.

A bit ominous walking out the gate yesterday and seing a Taurus, Fusion and Edge going into Product Development. A few employees took it as getting it rubbed in their faces that they won't have jobs in 5 years time.

Please don't do this Ford. If you want to go FWD for your large car, bring the entire Mondeo range over, with an inline four, inline diesel four, and two flavours of EcoBoost four, and a manual across the range.

Beats a Torus anyday. The Mondeo is gorgeous, the Taurus has as much visual appeal as a VT Commodore

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

so true the F6 is a low tech boat anchor [/sarcasm] 310 KW 565 NM ( only 5 NM less than a GT) from a 4.0L 6 is up there with GT level performance, not bad for a "low tech engine"
I would stack an F6 against any V6 ( and most V8) production car available for under $100K
how does a patent ( or 120 ) make the engine superior?

Why does every validation revolve around outright engine outputs? Nobody can drive their family sedan on the roads at those levels anyway.

If that's the case hows the smaller capacity Nissan GTR engine stack up against the F6 engine on a dyno? Or Nissan 370Z compare around a circuit comparred to a F6..?

Both clear wins to the V6 but both as pointless as each other..

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Those two graphs are not directly comparable, the Mustang readings are at the back wheels
while the Falcon's readings has been given corrections to approximate flywheel power outputs.

I've recently driven the later US vehicles with v6 engines and can say that I found their performance comparable
to our Falcon I-6, the idea that Falcon will become a souless car with a V6 is just emotional clap trap.

Bring on a smaller and lighter Falcon with higher HP V6s, EB I-4, V8 and V6 diesel
All possible if Falcon/Territory share power trains with a future Mustang

How embarrasment!

I can't read the old language, so I didn't even realise. Anyway, the general shape of the torque curve (and the fact that it revs to 7000 rpm) should give you the gist of what I was trying to demonstrate.

If the future Mustang shares a power train with the Falcon, does that mean we'll have the 'Mustang bred' Falcon again?

Edit: Out of curiosity, what do you think the V6 does better than the I6? The figures tell me it'll just do everything worse, but since you've driven it and I haven't, I'd like to hear what you think of it

[Ford Falcon XR6]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

That is high vs. low tech no matter what any I6 lover tries to tell me!! !

But where are the facts to back up that the V6 is much more hi-tech then the I6 ???? it's One thing to say something it's another to back it up with actual facts

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by Ford Falcon XR6

But where are the facts to back up that the V6 is much more hi-tech then the I6 ???? it's One thing to say something it's another to back it up with actual facts

This. One could argue that the I6 engine layout is a technologically superior design to the V6 engine layout. Inherently smoother and less energy loss.

Edit: By the way, this thread was meant to be about whether the people of this forum would accept a Falcon with I4T or V8 only (no six cylinder option), not about the differences between I6 and V6 motors. I'm still interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on the matter.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

so true the F6 is a low tech boat anchor [/sarcasm] 310 KW 565 NM ( only 5 NM less than a GT) from a 4.0L 6 is up there with GT level performance, not bad for a "low tech engine"
I would stack an F6 against any V6 ( and most V8) production car available for under $100K
how does a patent ( or 120 ) make the engine superior?

A) F6 drinks like a V8 (I know I own an XR6T), but an Ecoboost V6 will drink like a V6 & get the same torque & power as an I6T!!
B) A patent is only taken out when something new in engineered & invented. A patent stops others from coping it.. People only want to copy something that is good!!
C) You may be right in saying a V6 can never match an I6 with all things being equal. Personally I have not idea about that.. However, the current I6 does not have all the newest tech that current V6’s have… And getting the I6 there will cost too much & will never happen.

[Ford Falcon XR6]

Originally Posted by AMGC63

Why does every validation revolve around outright engine outputs? Nobody can drive their family sedan on the roads at those levels anyway.

If that's the case hows the smaller capacity Nissan GTR engine stack up against the F6 engine on a dyno? Or Nissan 370Z compare around a circuit comparred to a F6..?

Both clear wins to the V6 but both as pointless as each other..

Both very different classes of cars

[AMGC63]

There is absolutely no logical or mechanical reason to claim a V6 engine cant make the same power and torque for the same equal engine capacity as an I6 configuration.

The head design and induction design determine the power output not the orientation of the pistons.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Ford Falcon XR6

But where are the facts to back up that the V6 is much more hi-tech then the I6 ???? it's One thing to say something it's another to back it up with actual facts

my facts are in the number of patents the Ecoboost has. The alone says "new Tech"!!

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by AMGC63

Why does every validation revolve around outright engine outputs? Nobody can drive their family sedan on the roads at those levels anyway.

If that's the case hows the smaller capacity Nissan GTR engine stack up against the F6 engine on a dyno? Or Nissan 370Z compare around a circuit comparred to a F6..?

Both clear wins to the V6 but both as pointless as each other..

I'm curious, have you recently owned a falcon 6? they are a smooth torquy engine they work hard with little wear due to their good low end torque allowing the engine to operate comfortably at low RPM.
They are a totally different animal to the above mentioned examples that need to be spinning at alarmingly high RPM to get going, tell me where you can find a V6 that will run for up to 900 000Ks without rebuild (common in falcon taxis) and still have respectable performance . V6 engines aren't in the race when it comes to smooth long lasting powerful engines .

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

I'm curious, have you recently owned a falcon 6? they are a smooth torquy engine they work hard with little wear due to their good low end torque allowing the engine to operate comfortably at low RPM.
They are a totally different animal to the above mentioned examples that need to be spinning at alarmingly high RPM to get going, tell me where you can find a V6 that will run for up to 900 000Ks without rebuild (common in falcon taxis) and still have respectable performance . V6 engines aren't in the race when it comes to smooth long lasting powerful engines .

Everything you've said here is true. In my view, an engine's power output is worthless if it needs to spin up to alarmingly high revs to achieve it.

There's a reason why you constantly see Falcon and Territory taxis (you even see a few Passat wagon taxis around these days), but Commodore taxis are a scarcity.

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

I'm curious, have you recently owned a falcon 6? they are a smooth torquy engine they work hard with little wear due to their good low end torque allowing the engine to operate comfortably at low RPM.
They are a totally different animal to the above mentioned examples that need to be spinning at alarmingly high RPM to get going, tell me where you can find a V6 that will run for up to 900 000Ks without rebuild (common in falcon taxis) and still have respectable performance . V6 engines aren't in the race when it comes to smooth long lasting powerful engines .

Yes, had many as company cars, great engines.

The determining factor of engine longevity is the engineering quality of the components, not which direction the pistons go...

Too many people have "buickV6itus" The world of engines including V6's have come a long way since the VN...

Weather you have to rev the engine hard or not comes down to bore and stroke ratio, BMW i6 is a perfect example of the exact thing you claim is an issue with V6's.. the BMW I6 is completely gutless under 5000 rpm, i drove one last week. its a revvy engine by design.

[Ford Falcon XR6]

Originally Posted by AMGC63

There is absolutely no logical or mechanical reason to claim a V6 engine cant make the same power and torque for the same equal engine capacity as an I6 configuration.

The head design and induction design determine the power output not the orientation of the pistons.

I belive that it is also about the way an engine delivers it's power. I've driven lots of falcon 6's and commodore 6's and the falcon just delivers it's power so much better then the commodore.

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by AMGC63

Yes, had many as company cars, great engines.

The determining factor of engine longevity is the engineering quality of the components, not which direction the pistons go...

Too many people have "buickV6itus" The world of engines including V6's have come a long way since the VN...

you are only partially right there the engineering quality is a big factor but ask any automotive engineer ( not a mechanic) what they were taught at uni and they will all tell you all other things being equal an I6 is vastly superior to a V6 this is not opinion it is an accepted engineering principal

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

you are only partially right there the engineering quality is a big factor but ask any automotive engineer ( not a mechanic) what they were taught at uni and they will all tell you all other things being equal an I6 is vastly superior to a V6 this is not opinion it is an accepted engineering principal

Im sitting next to a pretty senior mechanical engineer from a car company at the moment and he thinks you're wrong...

He said "the quality of an engine comes down to the quality of the design, engineering and manufacturing of the engine, not which direction the pistons go"...

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by fairlaneman

Edit: By the way, this thread was meant to be about whether the people of this forum would accept a Falcon with I4T or V8 only (no six cylinder option), not about the differences between I6 and V6 motors. I'm still interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on the matter.

As i said earlier, it will be FWD/AWD and they cannot fit a V8 with this configuration, the platform isn't designed for it, neither is the Coyote/Miami V8.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by fairlaneman

How embarrasment!

I can't read the old language, so I didn't even realise. Anyway, the general shape of the torque curve (and the fact that it revs to 7000 rpm) should give you the gist of what I was trying to demonstrate.

If the future Mustang shares a power train with the Falcon, does that mean we'll have the 'Mustang bred' Falcon again?

Edit: Out of curiosity, what do you think the V6 does better than the I6? The figures tell me it'll just do everything worse, but since you've driven it and I haven't, I'd like to hear what you think of it

OK first off let me just say that FoA have done a marvelous job with the I-6.
The area i see that the V6 has over the I-6 is its compact design which allows weight to be shifted behind the front wheels.

For me personally, the 3.7 is next generation on the GM 3.6 V6 and absolutely thrives on revs,
the thing just keeps on revving where our I-6 throws in the towel so I'd say
much more usable power,
more like 50 extra horsepower and close on the same torque.


All of this is a moot discussion as the Falcon isn't changing engines for at least another five years,
who knows what the plan will be then.

Originally Posted by fairlaneman

This. One could argue that the I6 engine layout is a technologically superior design to the V6 engine layout. Inherently smoother and less energy loss.

Edit: By the way, this thread was meant to be about whether the people of this forum would accept a Falcon with I4T or V8 only (no six cylinder option), not about the differences between I6 and V6 motors. I'm still interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on the matter.

I think that Ecoboost I=4 will be a success but will be an extra engine and something like
a V6 diesel will become an interesting addition...if it happens..

Don't think a V6 can ever be as smooth as an I-6?
Try driving the new Territory with I-6 and V6 diesel and tell me what you think...

[mik]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

People are forgetting if that a Falcon goes FWD it can't have either the I6 or a V8.

It will be Ecoboost 4, V6 and maybe Ecoboost V6. It will be a sad day indeed, and I hope they don't sully the Falcon name by putting it on some Yank crap FWD hunk of shizzen. Call it something else cause it won't be a Falcon in any way shape or form.

A bit ominous walking out the gate yesterday and seing a Taurus, Fusion and Edge going into Product Development. A few employees took it as getting it rubbed in their faces that they won't have jobs in 5 years time.

yes you can understand their feelings, and i`m with you on that with the fwd thought`s, just what we need .....another wheel barrow .

[MITCHAY]

As said Nissan went from to V6 from I6. The GT-R is a high performance car and not a family sedan but it's all relative in they went from one configuration to the other.

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by fairlaneman

What does everyone think? Would you be happy to see just the I4T and Coyote V8 in the Falcon?

Fairlaneman poses an interesting question. I think we all know what is coming for the inline 6. It has been a great motor and it will be sad to see it go but I feel the writing is on the wall for it come 2015/16. I have a feeling (but I hope I am wrong) that the ute will see the same fate.

So why not turn the loss into an opportunity and have a major rethink on where the Falcon is heading. So why not ditch 6 cylinders completely and go I4T and V8 only? You could either cut 100mm off the front of the vehicle or add 100mm to the passenger cell (it sounds so easy ). By making the car smaller on the outside and with 4 cyl power suddenly the Falcon could no longer be considered 'gas guzzling'. You want performance? You have the V8 (assuming it still fits in the engine bay ). The only issue is the utes. I can't see this strategy flying for them but if they are dropped for the next Falcon then there is no issue.

I feel this strategy would work better though if the 2L Ecoboost was stretched out to 2.5L. Using Explorer 2L figures, a 2.5L could have around 220Kw and 450Nm which would be more than acceptable.

Will this happen? Very unlikely.

[jixel 78]

Seems as good as it is(and it is) all the graphs/dyno readings/feels better claims/low RPM torque isnt getting you into them. Nobody is buying them people, they arent getting bums in the drivers seat. Four thousand cubic centimetres is too darn much, regardless of hi viz stickers and lab rat generated reams of data telling us howlittlefuel it uses on the Hume to Sydney. For Petes sake. Theres 50 years of inline Falcon Six rooted down and spread out across Australia eminating out of Geelong.Its great and wonderful and an Australian icon but most of you buy a second hand Falcon six, because FoA cant build you one to the price you have investigated tirelessly on our wonderfully informant interweb geared to provide `the best price to the consumer` It is TIME FOR A NEW BLOODY ENGINE. Good work FoA. Lets have a new car. The market isnt towing horse floats from Brisbane to Perth with a Falcon any more. Sorry trendsetters, let it go.

[hawker]

I think if they go to a V6 and especially if they go FWD, they will no longer be a falcon. A falcon to me was always an I6, which is a brilliant engine, and keeps getting better, it's a pity they want to chuck all that away.

99% of I6 I know are the thing that doesn't break in most Falcon's. Sure, gear box goes, power windows die, wheels fall off, you look after the I6, it keeps going. Although Holden don't seem to have "too" many problems with the V8's in their range, they often have problems (be it small or big) with the V6 engines. No one can still tell my friend why his engine was stuffed after 100,000K's (no it wasn't flogged, yes it was serviced as it should be)...........

[Falc'man]

In the interest of keeping this thread civil I believe Ford Australia Alan Mulally should chime in and advise they'll offer both a V6 and and a straight six in the 2016 Falcon.

It really is too far out to say but having a EB 4cyl as the base motor is plausible, with the performance option being the Ecoboost V6 alongside a forced V8.

By then the scenery will have changed a little, and our perceptions of what is everlasting will be adjusted to realise how wrong we were.
We don't know what their planning in terms of platforms, but, the positive thing is Ford's showing a lot of initiative and innovation with their products. In the end the consumer wins. The power train won't leave us wanting and the rear wheels will still be doing the work.

[hawker]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

In the interest of keeping this thread civil I believe Ford Australia Alan Mulally should chime in and advise they'll offer both a V6 and and a straight six in the 2016 Falcon.

To an extent, I agree, however:

I don't get why the Mondeo and Focus aren't pushed forward, and the Falcon left alone. I'm sure they can work some more miracles to keep the I6 under whatever emission standards they come out with.

I just home they don't think of bringing out an XR6 or GE6 (or whatever they decide that week) as a V6...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by hawker

To an extent, I agree, however:

I don't get why the Mondeo and Focus aren't pushed forward, and the Falcon left alone. I'm sure they can work some more miracles to keep the I6 under whatever emission standards they come out with.

I just home they don't think of bringing out an XR6 or GE6 (or whatever they decide that week) as a V6...

i agree with what you'e saying and Ford has even said that Ford Australia is not the Falcon Motor Company,
Falcon can no longer carry every sale for FoA, it's time for all of Ford's other vehicles to stand up and be counted.

In stead of relying on Falcon how about pushing:
- Fiesta
- Focus
- Mondeo
- new Escape
- New Ranger
- New Territory

If Ford could capture 1200-1500 sales a month in each of those segments, a lot of the pressure would be off Falcon sales.

It's hard enough predicting good falcon sales from month to month let alone what they will be like in five years,
I'd hate to be in Ford's shoes, I think they have some really tough decisions coming, some the fans won't like...

[R-Design]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

People are forgetting if that a Falcon goes FWD it can't have either the I6 or a V8.

It will be Ecoboost 4, V6 and maybe Ecoboost V6. It will be a sad day indeed, and I hope they don't sully the Falcon name by putting it on some Yank crap FWD hunk of shizzen. Call it something else cause it won't be a Falcon in any way shape or form.

A bit ominous walking out the gate yesterday and seing a Taurus, Fusion and Edge going into Product Development. A few employees took it as getting it rubbed in their faces that they won't have jobs in 5 years time.

I agree 100%, Ford let Falcon die rather than sully the name.

Better yet, grow some balls and do it properly. How about a V8 RWD version of this?: