Uncomfortably accurate...

[LyleXR8]

I would have no dramas in owning an XR8 or GS or GT with a 3 litre turbo diesel V8, as long as it sounds like a V8 and hauls **** WHO CARES of it's capacity or fuel, imagine the torque they would make when cranked up. I know the yanks like there cubes but some if there pickups ie ford with 7.3, 6.4 &6.0, chev have 6.6 duramax and dodge having the 5.9 cummins. These guys are cranking out upto 1500 rwhp and god knows the amount of torque but it's plenty enough to click through the auto to top gear, let off the brake and smoke 35-39 tyres for a few hundred metres without touching the brakes, surely if these engines were only 3 litres or so in capacity they could still punch out 4-500 rwhp, same torque figures as worked boss 335 and LS3 and pull 6L per 100 sitting on 100kmh. Let's not forget most 4wd weather ute or wagon are all around 2000kg, turning 4 wheel drive systems, pushing an object shaped like a fridge through the air and geared to be fairly revvy on the highway, yet still return 7L/100km for a new Colorado/Dmax and navara 4 wd utes, put this in a lighter 2WD, streamlined falcon or commodore, and I'd be first to park my A R S E in either brand

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

With the power and economy of smaller engines (especially diesels) the days are probably numbered of big capacity big cylinder engines.

This is nothing new, how long since engines were 24.5 litres?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier-Railton

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Happy with my XR50 na fuel consumption. I'm very used to having the space in the car to stretch out at the lights without having to be cramped like if I had a smaller car. Cant see me having anything smaller for quite a while, which would use probably only around 20% less maybe. And LP gas is not an option as I need the bootspace and fold down rear seats for my planes. The XR50 will hopefully do me for some years to come.

Its about smaller engines, not smaller cars.

[JG34JA]

Originally Posted by onfire

But with that being said, there's always market for high end vehicles, and even excessive ones at that.

Smaller sedans with smaller engines are a reflection of the times, case in point the Commodore downsize in the late 1970s and early 80s. The popular range of Mitsubishi and Nissan sedans and wagons of the same period. And of course, the rise of Japanese hatches and coupes to going along with it.

It's history repeating itself.

+1

History ebbs and flows in cycles.

[XR_Strider_GuY]

Fact of the matter is this, small engines are getting cleverer and yes compared to bigger capacity engines of yester they are more powerful, more torquey more fuel efficient.

Put the same technology in a bigger cc engine and you will see the bigger engine will make more power, more torque and less stressed than a smaller engine. Its physics....

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Its about smaller engines, not smaller cars.

Smaller and FASTER.

[new2ford]

Comparing a large 4 with a large 6 I find it very disconcerting having to plant the foot with the accompanying "buzziness" of high revs in a 4 compared to the effortless power from tickling the throttle in a 6. Even with turbo etc I don't think they've overcome this in 4s nor will they. Small cars it's not a problem but then you can't fit as much in a small car can you?

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Comparing a large 4 with a large 6 I find it very disconcerting having to plant the foot with the accompanying "buzziness" of high revs in a 4 compared to the effortless power from tickling the throttle in a 6. Even with turbo etc I don't think they've overcome this in 4s nor will they. Small cars it's not a problem but then you can't fit as much in a small car can you?

Cant argue with the numbers but, if an I4T is making similar power and torque then i cant see the issue. Only thing i see is the weight of a bigger car being the issue.

[DaveTE]

The big engined car days are not numbered they are just getting pushed into a more exclusive market. Those that want to buy one still will. Exclusivity comes at a larger price tag but that's why Mercs and other luxury brands make big engined cars still because there's still a market for those who want to pay. The XR8 is gone but the FPV GS has replaced it. All good if you have the passion to pay for one. I'll always have at least one V8 in the garage.

[jpd80]

I disagree to a point, people today are not as interested in buying a performance engine as an option,
they instead want a basic engine to encompass both good performance and good fuel economy.
The way most manufacturers are approaching this is by offering LPG, diesel, hybrid or DI turbo petrol engines,

The key is increased efficiency and no better example exists than SZ Territory where 80% of I-6 sales have now been displaced
by the new V6 diesel, could you imagine the impact of a combined V6 diesel and Ecoboost 2.0 on I-6 Falcon sales?

Ford would most likely close down the I-6 engine plant, so not a good idea at the moment......

[prydey]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The key is increased efficiency and no better example exists than SZ Territory where 80% of I-6 sales have now been displaced
by the new V6 diesel, could you imagine the impact of a combined V6 diesel and Ecoboost 2.0 on I-6 Falcon sales?

Ford would most likely close down the I-6 engine plant, so not a good idea at the moment......

thats your opinion based on what you see in your crystal ball.

there was a graph in one of the recent sales threads that showed sales by which fuel used, and the private sales were still miles ahead with petrol over lpg and diesel. diesel sales were only higher in govt and comercial sectors. this skews the figures a little as fleets and govt departments have to meet certain criteria so they are basically forced to buy lpg or diesel.

there are a handful of small diesels getting around but the majority of diesels are in the suv/4wd segments.

sticking a diesel in a passenger sedan doesn't automatically mean buyers will flock to it.

back on topic,

i think smaller engines just get more development dollars thrown at them and in most cases, comparing a small engine to a large one isn't really comparing apples with apples. high tech 6 and 8 cyl engines are every bit as impressive as a good 4. nissan gtr, old m3 etc show what a larger engine can do when money is spent on it to develop it.

most companies couldn't be bothered (costs too high) spending the money developing the larger engines so they just stick a high tech 4 banger under the bonnet instead.

having said all that, i do kind of agree that most modern 4cyl's produce ample power these days for average joe family. the economy side of things is better but perception is a big part of it too.

4cyl camry is barely more economical than sidi 3.0 commo or 6sp falcon.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The key is increased efficiency and no better example exists than SZ Territory where 80% of I-6 sales have now been displaced
by the new V6 diesel, could you imagine the impact of a combined V6 diesel and Ecoboost 2.0 on I-6 Falcon sales?

Ford would most likely close down the I-6 engine plant, so not a good idea at the moment......

It is a typical Ford thing of telling people what they want instead of asking people what they want. I agree it could mean trouble for the I6 and I think that is the reason why it wont happen, which is fair enough when peoples jobs rely on the plant.

Diesel would transform sales for Falcon: big lazy torque, big fuel range, great towing all while getting 5 to 6 litres per 100km on the highway. Out of all passenger cars on the market, diesel suits a big rear wheel drive car the best as you can fully exploit the benefits of diesel. The precedent has already been set, look at the mainstream large family sized cars on the market, anyone where diesel is an option the diesel outperforms in sales the petrol equivalent.

Example:

Mondeo,diesel outsells petrol
Passat, diesel outsells petrol
Peugoet 508 diesel outsells petrol
Citreon C5 diesel outsells petrol

Then you look at all the sales Falcon and Commodore have lost over the years to SUVS..which, you guessed it... have diesel.

Even Mers, Audis and BMWs are seeing a bigger and bigger percentage of their passenger cars being diesel. Diesel is also the fastest rising fuel category in VFACTS.


I'm still surprised at the amount of imported diesel passenger cars in rural areas, an Aussie diesel Falcon would sell gangbusters out here.

[prydey]

Brazen - you must have the same crystal ball as jpd80!


i grabbed this from the september sales thread

Total Market 2011 2010

Passenger Private
Diesel 1,428 1,831
Electric 3 0
Hybrid 197 139
LPG 18 18
Petrol 21,921 23,964

Passenger Non-Private
Diesel 2,210 2,297
Electric 5 37
Hybrid 494 633
LPG 235 412
Petrol 21,189 19,432

SUV Private
Diesel 3,149 2,815
Hybrid 19 32
Petrol 6,639 6,803

SUV Non-Private
Diesel 4,409 3,503
Hybrid 16 29
Petrol 6,546 6,502

Light Commercial Private
Diesel 2,781 2,506
LPG 10 18
Petrol 1,379 1,340

Light Commercial Non-Private
Diesel 9,388 7,641
LPG 103 224
Petrol 2,254 2,585

Heavy Commercial 2,426 2,293

Total 86,819 85,054

as you can see, private buyers still flock to petrol.
__________________

[gtfpv]

steam has come a long way . i was thinking of supersteam vehicles , however the carbon dioxide tax has put that on the back burner till they can figure out a way to regulate steam effects on global warming .

[mik]

gee gee, the lpg up takers are still surprisingly small? i suppose it might be a bit early to expect the new gas henry to have any impact yet i guess.

[302 XC]

Reading a comparison between the new hilux dual cab 3 L diesel and the VW amarok 2L diesel
The 2 L amarok has 400NM of torque which is more than the 3L hilux
Rather interesting

As mentioned,yeah the smaller engines do have the $$$ thrown at them to develop the power/torque they have
But is it really about the best power ,or is it about engines complying to new emmision rules and market demand
The larger engines will always have a place in the market

Would i prefer a big lazy engine thats reliable,good easy power and torque
Or a smaller engine being force fed

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

thats your opinion based on what you see in your crystal ball.

there was a graph in one of the recent sales threads that showed sales by which fuel used, and the private sales were still miles ahead with petrol over lpg and diesel. diesel sales were only higher in govt and comercial sectors. this skews the figures a little as fleets and govt departments have to meet certain criteria so they are basically forced to buy lpg or diesel.

there are a handful of small diesels getting around but the majority of diesels are in the suv/4wd segments.

sticking a diesel in a passenger sedan doesn't automatically mean buyers will flock to it.

I'm not talking about every car changing, I'm talking Territory and falcon specific or is the awful truth
too much to bear, that the I-6 could be replaced inside 12 months by an efficient diesel option.
Buyers engine preferences change (SUV), as fuel prices climb watch people switch to diesel sedans and hatches.

having said all that, i do kind of agree that most modern 4cyl's produce ample power these days for average joe family. the economy side of things is better but perception is a big part of it too.

4cyl camry is barely more economical than sidi 3.0 commo or 6sp falcon.

But what about a diesel Mondeo.....or Ecoboost I-4 Falcon...
The market is so fragmented now that manufacturers are not game to make wrong choices..

[prydey]

the way i see it, for ford to 'just stick a diesel' in the falcon, it would cost a lot of money in R n D and crash testing and emissions and all the rest of it, for no garaunteed return.

what percentage of focii and mondeos are diesel?

[Franco Cozzo]

I have a diesel Focus, mainly because its a crapload better to drive than the petrol variants. I could have afforded the XR5T at the time, but I'm a P plater so it was certainly off the list.

[FalconXV]

Drove a Mondeo Ecoboost yesterday. Overall impressions are :
While the engine is very refined, it still sounds like a 4 cylinder, and doesn't have a pleasant note. Soul-less is how I would describe the character. Low down torque is excellent, that part will serve Falcon well but acceleration was not too good. Good engine, but I would have the 6, if they get rid of the 6 then we have lost one of the most durable engines in the market. Having said that, I saw a Saab 900 turbo with 300 000 kms the other day...

[prydey]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

Drove a Mondeo Ecoboost yesterday. Overall impressions are :
While the engine is very refined, it still sounds like a 4 cylinder, and doesn't have a pleasant note. Soul-less is how I would describe the character. Low down torque is excellent, that part will serve Falcon well but acceleration was not too good. Good engine, but I would have the 6, if they get rid of the 6 then we have lost one of the most durable engines in the market. Having said that, I saw a Saab 900 turbo with 300 000 kms the other day...

i believe the ecoboost in falcon will have a different state of tune. most reports state it will have a bit more power.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

Drove a Mondeo Ecoboost yesterday. Overall impressions are :
While the engine is very refined, it still sounds like a 4 cylinder, and doesn't have a pleasant note. Soul-less is how I would describe the character. Low down torque is excellent, that part will serve Falcon well but acceleration was not too good. Good engine, but I would have the 6, if they get rid of the 6 then we have lost one of the most durable engines in the market. Having said that, I saw a Saab 900 turbo with 300 000 kms the other day...

Remember our Ecoboost Mondeo has been detuned.

[2011G6E]

I think people are seriously overestimating how important an engines "sound" is to the average (ie: the majority) of buyers, or how quick it gets away when you plant the foot. In fact, the quieter it is, the better...no one really cares about engine note...in fact the engineers do thier best to design out all extra noises and harshness from the outside of the cabin to keep it as quiet as possible. I if they could make it silent in there (as with noise cancelling technology which has been around for decades now) they would.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by 302 XC

Reading a comparison between the new hilux dual cab 3 L diesel and the VW amarok 2L diesel
The 2 L amarok has 400NM of torque which is more than the 3L hilux
Rather interesting

VW's diesel tech is 10 years ahead of Toyotas. And Toyotas diesel engine is a commercial engine, whereas VW's is more a passenger car engine adapted to suit a commercial vehicle, hence its in a much higher state of development/tune than the Hiluxes.

The Japanese in general don't have anywhere near the diesel tech the euros do.

[Brazen]

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

VW's diesel tech is 10 years ahead of Toyotas. And Toyotas diesel engine is a commercial engine, whereas VW's is more a passenger car engine adapted to suit a commercial vehicle, hence its in a much higher state of development/tune than the Hiluxes.

The Japanese in general don't have anywhere near the diesel tech the euros do.

Then again I'd like to see a Euro diesel survive 12 months of abuse on a mine site or travelling through the red centre and come out the other side like the Tojo can.

[Franco Cozzo]

They say the older generation Hilux is unbreakable, but my friends have been reluctant to take me up on my offer of breaking theirs for them.

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

They say the older generation Hilux is unbreakable, but my friends have been reluctant to take me up on my offer of breaking theirs for them.

They really are. They take just about anything like a boss. I had a 20 year old Hilux with over 300k on the clock. Everything just worked and kept working. Even the old Nippo Denso A/C still worked. The roughest roads, the heaviest loads, several encounters with skippy...nothing could kill it. I really doubt you could kill it without some of that sugar syrup they used to seize engines in the CFC's scheme over in the US.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

They really are. They take just about anything like a boss. I had a 20 year old Hilux with over 300k on the clock. Everything just worked and kept working. Even the old Nippo Denso A/C still worked. The roughest roads, the heaviest loads, several encounters with skippy...nothing could kill it. I really doubt you could kill it without some of that sugar syrup they used to seize engines in the CFC's scheme over in the US.

Give it to me for a day, they don't call me "The Destroyer" at work for nothing armed with my fists of ham and clumsiness, nothing survives.

Actually, one of the guys siezed his engine in his petrol 4 cylinder Hilux, I think its an early 2000 model.

[prydey]

Brazen - if you want a diesel ute, buy a ranger!! why does everyone continually carry on like the falcon has to be this 'one car fits all' model.