An unfair playing field – the state of our car industry, by FAPM

[Brazen]

The trick to getting any sort of change is to have a clear and simple policy message supported by many.

The way I see it politicians need to be lobbied with the following:

• Moderate increase in tariffs
• Buy Australian clauses for government fleets, or on projects of national significance or on projects funded by the government (NBN has bought dozens of 2wd Hilux utes).
• Moderate tax incentives to buy Australian (e.g. FBT concessions).

[turbodewd]

Brazen

were those 2door Hiluxes?

[Road_Warrior]

To be honest, you could probably abolish the fixed tariff system altogether and replace it with a 'reciprocating' tariff system. This would call out governments like Thailand as to how lop-sided the FTA actually is.

[Road_Warrior]

Nick Xenophon calls us the "Free Trade Taliban" - i.e., fundamentalist and stupid. Read on:

http://www.farmweekly.com.au/news/ag...n/2232928.aspx

INDEPENDENT Senator, Nick Xenophon, has attacked successive Federal Governments and bureaucrats over their zealous attitude to free trade in relation to farm quarantine issues and foreign ownership of Australian rural land.

He said he had been told by a person involved in international trade forums that Australian negotiators were known as "the free-trade Taliban".

Senator Xenophon was speaking at this week's annual meeting of the horticulture committee of the NSW Farmers Association in Sydney.

He said that for many of his parliamentary colleagues biosecurity, country-of-origin labelling of food products and national food security were not seen to be priority issues.

In relation to issues such as anti-dumping trade laws, Australians was seen as "absolute mugs".

"Too often free trade devolves into a free-for-all and too often it's our regional producers who pay the price for the fanaticism," Senator Xenophon said.

"For decades now we've listened to politicians and economists talk about how free trade provides us with a level playing field".

He believed this so-called level playing field was "complete fiction".

He could not understand how Australian governments could be obsessed with making things fair for competing businesses overseas to the direct detriment of local producers.

"In Australia we pay workers a living wage and we don't use child labour. In Australia we care about the impact our food production has on the environment. Some other countries don't.

"In Australia we care if the way we make our food makes people sick. Some other countries don't. Yet the free-trade Taliban who dominate Canberra want to pretend those anomalies don't exist."

Senator Xenophon also attacked Australia's country-of-origin labelling laws as "woefully inadequate and downright misleading".

"The free-trade Taliban also seem unconcerned about foreign ownership".

Senator Xenophon said the Foreign Investment Review Board only required a foreign buyer to seek approval if the purchase price was more than $231 million. And there was no requirement for government to apply a national interest test.

[turbodewd]

Senator Xenophon is a breath of fresh air in our parliament. We need more principled people like him at the top.

The problem is that these free-traders think everyone plays fair. They dont, they play hard.

Australia needs a good dose of nationalism and to play hardball. We can be outwardly polite but privately manic in pursuing the national interest. I mean, the Chinese appear to have 1000s of people employed to hack Western interests to gather information. They have no qualms about ripping off other people's designs and pirating software.

War is no longer about guns and bombs. Its about markets and information.

[mik]

Very true mate, a dose of patriotism is certainly on the cards, and some promotion of it from our illustrious leaders wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Charliewool]

The thing about Xenophon is he's a small voice in a forest of emptyheads.. Independents are usually idealists (not knocking that either) but their sometimes common sense views fall on deaf ears in the major political camps...
How these self indulgent fools are convinced that we NEED a competitive and viable auto manufacturing industry here, I have no idea?

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by mik

Very true mate, a dose of patriotism is certainly on the cards, and some promotion of it from our illustrious leaders wouldn't be a bad thing.

I don't think it is patriotism that we need, but by all means, people have a right to be proud of where they live and what their country has achieved.

No, what we need is sensible and logical government policy that considers the national interest first and foremost, and puts pandering to overseas interests and foreign trade mafias a distant second (or third).

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by mik

It might be time our pollies grew a pair and told them to go jump.

We can't...the world trade organisation will, as it has threatened to do in the past, hit Australia with hefty fines, and not just fines, but more importantly trade restrictions until we do as we're told.

We can't raise tariffs, because, basically, we can't. We aren't allowed to. Other countries can do as they wish...Australia, as I said, long ago signed up to international binding trade agreements that mean we can't subsidise our own industry yet others can. Mostly this was down to idiots like Keating thinking that the world will play along with what we do...they will, as Gillard tells us now with, for example, the carbon tax, "follow Australias lead".

No, they won't. We are inconsequential in the big scheme of things...we don't matter, we are tiny.

When it comes to politicians and other people thinking Australia is this big powerful economic superpower which the world respects and listens to, a country that will impose unique taxes and drop tariffs and the world will surely follow our lead, I am reminded of the image of a little kid in the playground with the big kids gathered around him, urging him to eat a worm, because they say that if he does it first, they just promise to eat one as well...*snigger*...

[turbodewd]

2011G6E,

there is always a loophole to be found. Always.

Why do you think the Japanese auto market is impenetrable?

[Bossxr8]

Why do you think the Japanese can whale?

For "scientific reasons". Nice loophole there.

[BHDOGS]

The biggest problem is the political partys themselves there not allowed to have independent thoughts or voices its always what the party wants the same reason that idiot abbot wont let them vote on gay marriage

[Buntz]

Either the people who make these policies are getting their pockets lined. Or we are a nation of fools that accept being taken for a ride.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

We can't...the world trade organisation will, as it has threatened to do in the past, hit Australia with hefty fines, and not just fines, but more importantly trade restrictions until we do as we're told.

I don’t understand this level polices. However, could you explain how any organisation could have a problem with Australia for matching what other countries are already doing?

[302 XC]

Originally Posted by Buntz

Either the people who make these policies are getting their pockets lined. Or we are a nation of fools that accept being taken for a ride.

Yes ,and,Yes

[SB076]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH the world is falling apart.

Did you analyse the figures at all.

- now they are have grouped alot people into this total - Importers? related component Manufacturers? (not suppliers). All these people are not reliant on the local manfacturers or their suppliers

Australia is currently heading towards making approx. 180,000 to 200,000 cars this year. Normal productivity is 15-18 cars manufactured per worker per year. At a most generous breakdown, no more 15,000 Australians are employed by the local car manufacturers and their suppliers. Doesnt Australia handout 40,000 457 visas each year. We protect low skilled assembly jobs, and then import others to work in the high paying resource area.

But you are right, Holdens own advice to redundant workers is that they should become lawn mowers, hairdressers or aged care workers.

Oh not another Bob "fact" seriously I thought you would have stopped when you stated that if the AUD halved the cost of everything would double??? Where do you get your information from???

As for low skilled assembly jobs you are aware that Automotive industries employ engineers, accountants, and trades of various skill sets aren't you? I suggest you have a look inside a modern Australian manufacturing facility

[mik]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

We can't...the world trade organisation will, as it has threatened to do in the past, hit Australia with hefty fines, and not just fines, but more importantly trade restrictions until we do as we're told.

We can't raise tariffs, because, basically, we can't. We aren't allowed to. Other countries can do as they wish...Australia, as I said, long ago signed up to international binding trade agreements that mean we can't subsidise our own industry yet others can. Mostly this was down to idiots like Keating thinking that the world will play along with what we do...they will, as Gillard tells us now with, for example, the carbon tax, "follow Australias lead".

No, they won't. We are inconsequential in the big scheme of things...we don't matter, we are tiny.

When it comes to politicians and other people thinking Australia is this big powerful economic superpower which the world respects and listens to, a country that will impose unique taxes and drop tariffs and the world will surely follow our lead, I am reminded of the image of a little kid in the playground with the big kids gathered around him, urging him to eat a worm, because they say that if he does it first, they just promise to eat one as well...*snigger*...

I
I think both sides can share the guilt of sending us down the creek without a paddle, some very good clips on the tube showing what went on , circa 1975 re the lima declaration , major identities signed the agreement, I might be wrong but I see the carbon tax as an extension of that policy.
As for what other countries may or might not do, I reckon when push comes to shove if we have what other countries want they will deal one way or the other, penalties? We are already getting screwed, is it worth standing up for yourself and taking a few hard knocks or just assuming the position and copping it sweet forever?
After all life was'nt ment to be easy.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Buntz

Either the people who make these policies are getting their pockets lined. Or we are a nation of fools that accept being taken for a ride.

I hate to be a cynical old codger, but from what I have observed I think it,s the later.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by mik

I
I think both sides can share the guilt of sending us down the creek without a paddle, some very good clips on the tube showing what went on , circa 1975 re the lima declaration , major identities signed the agreement, I might be wrong but I see the carbon tax as an extension of that policy.
As for what other countries may or might not do, I reckon when push comes to shove if we have what other countries want they will deal one way or the other, penalties? We are already getting screwed, is it worth standing up for yourself and taking a few hard knocks or just assuming the position and copping it sweet forever?
After all life was'nt ment to be easy.

Like the Midnight Oil song. It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
Reciprocal arrangement is perfect.

[bobthebilda]

=SB076;4702191]Oh not another Bob "fact" seriously I thought you would have stopped when you stated that if the AUD halved the cost of everything would double??? Where do you get your information from???

Its the same principle that we get really cheap gas out of the north west shelf, or we get reasonable cheap oil out of bass strait, but we dont pay those cheap prices at the bowser. We pay what ever someone else in the world is willing to pay for it. If it costs BHP $50 to get a barrel of oil out of bass strait, we arent going to pay $50 plus costs at the bowser, we are going to be paying whatever BHP thinks they can get on the world stage plus costs. Same with food. If we make a tonne of wheat for $1000, and the farmer can sell it here for A$1000 or to the US at US$1000 it wont be an issue if both at parity. If OZ dollar slumps if half and he can sell it here for A$1000 or US$1000, then the farmer is going to get twice as much ozzy dollars for selling it at $US.

As for low skilled assembly jobs you are aware that Automotive industries employ engineers, accountants, and trades of various skill sets aren't you? I suggest you have a look inside a modern Australian manufacturing facility.

Your statement does what the pro protection people do, confuse one with the other. The Australian Automotive Industry is not the Australian Manufacturing Industry. Yes we would be truly stuffed if the manufacturing industry ran itself like the automotive industry. Last time I checked, the Australian Engineers association claimed it had over 100,000 members, I suspect a teeny weeny weeny weeny number of those work for the auto manufacturers (or suppliers). And you do realise that for the 15,000 people that are employed by the auto manufacturers and suppliers, there are 12 -14 million other Australians doing similar things on a daily basis. A person opening a box of imported car parts to fit to a cruze, has no greater skills
than a person opening a box of imported t shirts at Big W (they just think they dont have to work as hard)

[tranquilized]

I've been following all this discussion on the local industry with interest, lots of good suggestions as to what could be done to help make it more viable.

But the thing is, and a few people have touched on this already, the biggest issue is that the car makers are foreign owned. Even if we created the most ideal manufacturing environment that's reasonably possible for them, they still wont want to manufacture here because there will always be cheaper countries to do so.

The way I see it the biggest hurdle for Ford Australia and Holden's long term viability is Ford NA and General Motors. (closely followed by our crazy trade arrangements of course)

[NX74205]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Some might argue that this just raises the price of cars for Australians. Well, yes it does – for imported cars. It doesn’t if you buy Australian – and that is the point. Meanwhile, for those determined to buy from overseas, a 5% tariff increase on a $35k car is a $1750 increase, which pales into insignificance compared with the savings from the Aussie dollar appreciating 40% in the last five years.

It's not that simple, though, is it? Aside from the import tarriff, there are duties and taxes to be paid, as well as the 'Luxury Car Tax' which is applied to any vehicle with an RRP greater than the threshold. Imported cars - being more expensive as it is due to the tarriff, duties and taxes - are more likely to also be slugged with the LCT, making it effectively a 'double whammy'.

If we were to raise tarriffs - which I don't fundamentally disagree with - I think we should do away with the LCT altogether.

[falconnut]

So wait NOBODY has a free trade agreement with us?

What the hell this is one sided bs, no wonder ford au dont export the falcon.

20-60% is what is killing our already dying/dead industry.

Thanks FTA!

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by falconnut

So wait NOBODY has a free trade agreement with us?

Yes we do, for example Thailand, but the issue is that on the surface our "trade" with Thailand is "free", within the terms of the FTA, they slap on a discretionary tax on foreign made vehicles based on engine size. It's those sneaky taxes that are the second issue. However the primary issue is why were were negotiating an FTA with people who knew they were going to protect their interests in other ways. You could argue that they were dishonest, but you could also argue that we were being gullible.

[IDT]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Helping hands

Annual investment from the Government into the Australian auto sector hovers around $500-$600m per annum. With 23m people in Australia, that equates to $18-25 per person per year of taxpayer money to help attract investment into auto production here. Certain sectors of the press have chosen to label these investments as ‘hand-outs’. However, this economic support requires the sector to more than match these investments, so it’s not all one-way, hence the term co-investment.

Moreover, $18-25 per person is actually extremely low. In Germany the amount is $95 per person; in the USA it is $260; while France supports its car-makers to the tune of $150 per person per annum.

Whilst I agree with the tarriff arguement, Its a lie to compare cost to per capita/tax payer, this over simplifying is always rubbish.

[SumoDog68]

Some excellent points presented in this thread . One of the issues we have is that our car industry is not really ours - they are multinationals unlike German , Japanese or South Korean car industry .
Being multinationals and controlled from their respective countries they will make decisions based on their interests which might be different than local interests in some areas.

[turbodewd]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

Some excellent points presented in this thread . One of the issues we have is that our car industry is not really ours - they are multinationals unlike German , Japanese or South Korean car industry .
Being multinationals and controlled from their respective countries they will make decisions based on their interests which might be different than local interests in some areas.

That's certainly true. Altho its in our interest to have employment as high as possible and in the most valuable industries.

[JG34JA]

Some great points - on both sides (bob seems to be on his own).

It's heartening to see forum members waking up to the nature of our trade relationships. I cannot fathom how Australians freely negotiated some of those. A deep lack of self-worth? Stupidity?

The damage is done however and if current trends continue she's going down (Auto sector). Perhaps the solution is to start afresh after 2020, find indigenous capital - something we've never really had despite untold commodity wealth; develop an industry that is Australian owned, export focused, playing to our strengths (eg utes) and not subject to WTO restrictions or stifling policy, and apply exactly the same policies that make the Germans or Japanese or South Koreans successful (ie - protect it!).

In the meantime, pressures for rising tariffs and trade/currency blocs forming rises. This kind of thing often doesn't end well. Negotiating mutually beneficial trade and openness is vastly preferable.

Lastly, a link - look at the history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common...ft_Corporation

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by mik

I
I think both sides can share the guilt of sending us down the creek without a paddle, some very good clips on the tube showing what went on , circa 1975 re the lima declaration , major identities signed the agreement, I might be wrong but I see the carbon tax as an extension of that policy.
As for what other countries may or might not do, I reckon when push comes to shove if we have what other countries want they will deal one way or the other, penalties? We are already getting screwed, is it worth standing up for yourself and taking a few hard knocks or just assuming the position and copping it sweet forever?
After all life was'nt ment to be easy.

AGREED
There are far too many people who like to run around saying "oh we signed this and we signed that." Big Whoop.
We have no reason to be afraid of the WTO. We must be the ONLY member becuase as far as I am aware we are the only country that doesn't protect its own industry.
Also, whilst "import tariffs" might be technically a "no-no" theres nothing to stop us increasing the LCT, lowereing the threshhold, and exempting Australian made cars. As somebody else suggested, FBT reduction on on Aussie built would also help. Bigger tax breaks for R&D would also help encourage investment in the future.
Australia is a net exporter, so we do need to tread carefully and be diplomatic. But that doesn't mena that we need to be pushovers. If necessary we can negotaite concessions with key trading partners, but the givernment has an obligation to protect the jobs of the majority of Australians.

[Crazy Dazz]

One of the fundamental problems you have is this:
Blue Collar Industry workers (particular those in Victoria & SA) typically vote Labour, so realistically unless they are prepared to shift their allegiance en mass, the Liberals don’t give a ****.
Unfortunately the Labour party has always drawn its support from two key areas, the aforementioned blue collar workers, and the Gay Vegan Hippies. Unfortunately that slice has now been taken by the Greens, which is why you so often see Labour losing seats on the Primary Vote but winning on Green preferences. So much so that what you now have is effectively a coalition Labour/Green government.

And if there is one thing that Greenies HATE more than cow exports, it is the personal motor car. And in fact industry in general. They are a disgusting bunch of hypocrites, because they will happily see us buying **** made in despicable factories in China, just so long as none get built in Tasmania.