Holden want extra 265mil to stay

[Giant]

I would not call a new Falcon big, try sitting in the back seat or putting a couple of baby seats in the back..................

[Golioth]

Perhaps the Government does not have a spare 1/4 Billion $ to feed Holden. Appears to me that there a massive shortfalls in funding across the board. Health, schools, national infrastructure etc all want & need more money......the bank account is overdrawn already so at some stage the tap will be turned off.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

That said...$265 Million...damn. That's pushing the friendship over the cliff I think.

On top of the $265 mill. They want the workers to take a $200/week pay cut.

Something is not right. I would take it that Ford calling it quits has given GM the green light to pull out unless they contain their costs or get a fair chunk from mr Govco.

[mik]

People talk about value for money with the handouts to the motor industry,(which I think are peanuts by the way), anyone looked at politicians and their perks and pay and pay rises and what they cost us?I know who I would rather see out of a job than the motor industry employees.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Wretched

enough is enough there should be no more handing out $$ willy nilly no strings attached.
There should be conditions and Holden/Ford/Toyota/whoever should have to meet those conditions.
If Holden have good justification to needing the dollars (some great technological break through, a new model for export, etc) then so be it but if it is just to survive then no thank you, shut the doors if you need to. It is not sustainable to just hand out dollars.

Oh and yeah ok all those other governments subsidising car makers, yeah that's fine but have you seen what those car makers are doing? They are expanding their markets, they improving their products continually developing new products, new technologies (Toyota had the hybrid tech subsidised by the government), etc not just the same cars all the time. SO yes in that case I am all for it but here, nothing, it's all done at the last minute.

This.

I am more than happy to support, but it has to be a two way street. Something that Ford and GMH dont do with the current cars is intergrate them into their brand globally.

Admittidly GM is better than Ford with this regard, but they still havent worked it out.

Now why it seems so elusive when the Germans can do it I am not sure.

It seems odd to continue to prop when the core issues is not really being looked at.

[Polyal]

Also look at it this way.

GM know the next gov will want to look good, bad enough Ford have gone. So...they pretty much know they will drop manufacturing, so why not see how far the Gov will go?

If the Gov says no then guess who the scapegoat is...mind you part of our countries uncompetitiveness is because of the Govs inability to read and understand the markets...

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by vztrt

On top of the $265 mill. They want the workers to take a $200/week pay cut.

Christ. Put in those terms it's little wonder Ford couldn't and wouldn't make it work.

[monzie]

I think it shows up the difference in company policy between Ford and GM. After the 2008 GFC GM took all the U.S. govt. grants and loans it could get its hands on, Ford didn't take any. Ford even used that in there ads in the U.S.. At least Ford have come out and let people now what the situation is.

Peter

[P6LTD351]

It's over. This is all just part of the dance and a PR exercise from GM. Stop speculating as the decision has already been made.

[imugli]

Originally Posted by mik

People talk about value for money with the handouts to the motor industry,(which I think are peanuts by the way), anyone looked at politicians and their perks and pay and pay rises and what they cost us?I know who I would rather see out of a job than the motor industry employees.

Do you actually know any pollies personally? Or anyone that works for one? Reagrdless of which side you vote for, they work tireless hours basically 7 days a week. They forgo seeing their families to be involved with their communities and to keep the country on what they believe to be the right track.

And they get paid FAR less than they would for doing the same thing in the private sector.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Christ. Put in those terms it's little wonder Ford couldn't and wouldn't make it work.

The bit that has me baffled is they just did a deal with the government. All was fantastic, GMH will be here till 2022. Now all of a sudden things have changed. Its not like the GFC has just hit, its been tough for the last 4-5 years.

Just seems odd to me that all this came out after Ford made their announcement. GM will know their business better then others so how could they have gotten things so wrong? Unless there is another factor at play that is trying to do what they can to make themselves reduce consumer backlash on not building vehicles here anymore.

Only other thing is that they see that the VF is going to tank so badly that there isn't any point staying without a decent cash injection and a decent cut to expenses.

[Joe5619]

I've been looking at a few articles today. Where did this "extra 265M" story even come from? It looks made up to me, based on chinse whispers!!

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Polyal

This.

I am more than happy to support, but it has to be a two way street. Something that Ford and GMH dont do with the current cars is intergrate them into their brand globally.

Admittidly GM is better than Ford with this regard, but they still havent worked it out.

Now why it seems so elusive when the Germans can do it I am not sure.

It seems odd to continue to prop when the core issues is not really being looked at.

Geoff Kitney apparently published an article in AFR 23rd May where he commented on the level of support different governments provide. Apparently Australian subsidies work out to be $18 per person in Germany its $90 per person. If this is correct that's a big difference in the level of support provided by different governments.

I dont think Australia should be making small - medium cars, because they are already manufactured everywhere around the world. I think Australia should keep making large cars (its what we know) But we need to increase volumes to be viable and look at other improvements, the only way we can do that is to export - but that will require negotiations at a political level with different countries to break down barriers that currently exist.

to give you an idea Ford recently exported Territorys to Thailand (small number) but due to local laws the price was around $100K and they sold

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

As a potential 'investor' I would want to know what my money is buying:

* How long is the investment for: 1 year? 3 years?
* What happens after that time? Does the company pull up stumps and leave the country?
* What is the longer term business plan of the company and how will this investment help fund that plan?
* If I give you this grant, are you going to come to me again in 6 months / 12 months time asking for another investment?
* How do you intend to provide me with a return on the investment I have made (ie what is in it for me)?
* What are the penalties if you do not deliver on your promised return on investment?


I hope the government is asking these and more questions before they seriously consider providing the requested investment.

Craig H

Forever, Maybe, Ask for more money, Yes, Sorry, return goes to shareholders, None.

[FPV8U]

The Half a Billion Holden want would be better spend in growth industries creating new jobs, for future workers as well as those facing redundancy's rather than delaying what seems to be the inevitable closure of the Australian automotive industries.

The writing has been on the wall for years, and Large sedans will not be volume sellers again anytime soon, unless local manufacturers expand into the markets that are in demand to justify their existence, increase their volumes and set-up exports programs i don't want to see that amount of money blown in a band aid solution.

People are almost suggesting to float GMH with these huge handouts to prevent unemployment, i'd rather see money go towards education and training in new positions, in businesses that are moving forward, not trying to squeeze money out of the government every few years with the threat of closure.

[imugli]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

The Half a Billion Holden would be better spend in growth industries creating new jobs, for future workers as well as those facing redundancy's rather than delaying what seems to be the inevitable closure of the Australian automotive industries.

The writing has been on the wall for years, and Large sedans will not be volume sellers again anytime soon, unless local manufacturers expand into the markets that are in demand to justify their existence, increase their volumes and set-up exports programs i don't want to see that amount of money blown in a band aid solution.

People are almost suggesting to float GMH with these huge handouts to prevent unemployment, i'd rather see money go towards education and training in new positions, in businesses that are moving forward, not trying to squeeze money out of the government every few years with the threat of closure.

^^^This!

[mik]

Originally Posted by imugli

Do you actually know any pollies personally? Or anyone that works for one? Reagrdless of which side you vote for, they work tireless hours basically 7 days a week. They forgo seeing their families to be involved with their communities and to keep the country on what they believe to be the right track.

And they get paid FAR less than they would for doing the same thing in the private sector.

Do you know any politicians personally that work tirelessly 7 days a week 48 weeks of the year? by all means please name one !
as for keeping the country on the right track , i`m sorry bud i think if that's the case they have made/are making a right royal bollocks of the job, and i might add from what i can see they are already well paid and far perked up compared to the average joe trying to make ends meet each week,
and whether they can make a million a week selling sand to the arabs if they really really wanted to....... but are just accepting a peasant wage way above the average worker and perked job because of the goodness of their little hearts because they want to be Australian angels of the people, good luck to them, but don't expect me to be sympathetic them.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Ahhh thats not bad. $265 million to save 1750 manufacturing jobs. Thats only another $150,000 for each job.

Per annum?

For those still throwing around the 200,000 jobs figure:
Motor Vehicle and Parts Manufacturing 50,370
Motor Vehicle and Parts Manufacturing as a Percentage of Total Manufacturing 5.35%

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showpost.php?p=4806735&postcount=54

[Whitey-AMG]

Give them the 265 mill as a LOAN
They can pay that back by cutting the wages of workers at their overseas plants......

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by ESP

Give them the 265 mill as a LOAN
They can pay that back by cutting the wages of workers at their overseas plants......

Do Holden have overseas plants?

[jmack]

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

As a potential 'investor' I would want to know what my money is buyng

we can see what our money is buying
collingwood sponsor
nrl sponsor
whoever wins no 1 in v8s
paul gover
motor magazine
josh dowel.
like any old possession dosnt matter how much u love it there comes a point when you have to cut your losses,and knowing when to do it is hard part,but the sooner u do it the quicker u move on

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Do Holden have overseas plants?

GM...
If its OK to Import and sell GM products in general - why make the distinction.....Holden would be making good money from Imported vehicles......no ?
If that doesnt work......put a BOGAN tax on Chev badges......

[BlueOvalPrint]

Someone recently compared the Australian car manufacturing sector to an old sick family pet. A long time together, irreplaceable, many great memories, but when it's riddled with a cancer that you've already spent a bucket load on and no hope of recovery, there comes a time to make the final call :(

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Giant

I would not call a new Falcon big, try sitting in the back seat or putting a couple of baby seats in the back..................

Really? There is something wrong if you cant fit three across the back. If so stop buying lounge suites branded as baby seats.

[imugli]

Originally Posted by mik

Do you know any politicians personally that work tirelessly 7 days a week 48 weeks of the year? by all means please name one !
as for keeping the country on the right track , i`m sorry bud i think if that's the case they have made/are making a right royal bollocks of the job, and i might add from what i can see they are already well paid and far perked up compared to the average joe trying to make ends meet each week,
and whether they can make a million a week selling sand to the arabs if they really really wanted to....... but are just accepting a peasant wage way above the average worker and perked job because of the goodness of their little hearts because they want to be Australian angels of the people, good luck to them, but don't expect me to be sympathetic them.

Lorraine Wreford, Donna Bauer, Inga Peulich, Mitch Fifield, Murray Thompson. Know them all personally and know they all work tirelessly in their communities, 7 days a week for 48 weeks of the year (in fact probably more).

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by ESP

GM...
If its OK to Import and sell GM products in general - why make the distinction.....Holden would be making good money from Imported vehicles......no ?
If that doesnt work......put a BOGAN tax on Chev badges......

Because Holden is asking for money, money to keep their AU plants online that produce Commodore.
I don't see HOLDEN plants anywhere else in the world or any others that develop the Commodore and its variants.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by Wretched

I don't see HOLDEN plants anywhere else in the world or any others that develop the Commodore and its variants.

No one else in the world is pining for Falcodores.

[SB076]

Interesting article on other industries that are subsidised by the government

http://theconversation.com/is-suppor...ed-lives-13386

How do people feel about these industries being subsidised?

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by SB076

Interesting article on other industries that are subsidised by the government

http://theconversation.com/is-suppor...ed-lives-13386

How do people feel about these industries being subsidised?

It's a completely crap article. The author states we subsidise banks to the tune of $760 per person per annum. He is using what the bank's make each year per person in profits ( how is a companies earnings a subsidy?).

[SB076]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

It's a completely crap article. The author states we subsidise banks to the tune of $760 per person per annum. He is using what the bank's make each year per person in profits ( how is a companies earnings a subsidy?).

We do subsidise banks, the current bank deposits guarantee is a subsidy

and obviously there are more

http://www.bankingday.com/nl06_news_...631&hlc=2&hlw=

http://christopherjoye.blogspot.com....-taxpayer.html

Edit: by the way I am not suggesting we should just subsidise the local car manufacturing industry, I am suggesting we are better off with it than with out it. How best to fix the issues it (and other industries have) I am happy to read ideas.