D-Day for Holden tomorrow

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

I dunno about that... Look at Opel...

Are you seriously comparing a brand that has been here for 5 mins - as an importer - to Holden?

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I agree they aren’t made on a whim, but until the final "we are closing" is made, then a final decision is not made. Holden would be working with 2 scenarios (And both would have already been costed up). One to stay here & one to leave. To stay here, they need to get a “list” of things done. One thing on that list is employee wages. If they can’t tick everything off this list, then plan B is pulled out & they close. So until they get to a point on this list they can't tick, a final call is stil not made. If you get my thinking.

I'm sure Ford went down the same path. And I’m sure their list could have included similar things, but of course very different things based on what global direction was/is.

But when sales continue to slide it gets to the point where none of the options are viable, which is what happened to Ford, and what will happen to Holden. Holden are about 2 years behind where Ford are now.

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I agree they aren’t made on a whim, but until the final "we are closing" is made, then a final decision is not made. Holden would be working with 2 scenarios (And both would have already been costed up). One to stay here & one to leave. To stay here, they need to get a “list” of things done. One thing on that list is employee wages. If they can’t tick everything off this list, then plan B is pulled out & they close. So until they get to a point on this list they can't tick, a final call is stil not made. If you get my thinking.

I'm sure Ford went down the same path. And I’m sure their list could have included similar things, but of course very different things based on what global direction was/is.

Right. But that's what I don't like about the way GM is going about this. They are pretending that there are options. There are no options. They are closing. The only thing they are debating is how to go about it and when to announce it. All PR. And at the moment, they aren't doing to well with that. The public are sick of it.

[BroadyFord]

Can someone tell me why Holden announced two new models last year after being given $275 million to do so? They even told the government in confidence what those two vehicles will be, so it sounds like they have a plan but need the right conditions to exercise it.

Like others have said, it doesn't make sense that they've made the decision to close given last year's announcement.

Also, with the AUD now coming down, exports are more lucrative than they were just a few months ago so maybe that's now been factored in.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by BroadyFord

Can someone tell me why Holden announced two new models last year after being given $275 million to do so? They even told the government in confidence what those two vehicles will be, so it sounds like they have a plan but need the right conditions to exercise it.

Like others have said, it doesn't make sense that they've made the decision to close given last year's announcement.

Also, with the AUD now coming down, exports are more lucrative than they were just a few months ago so maybe that's now been factored in.

And can someone tell me why Ford spent all that money installing a supercharged Miami motor into the Falcon, a 2.0L EcoBoost engine into FG, ecoLPI upgrade to the I6, EPAS into SZ Territory, Diesel into SZ Territory, integrating new Ford global PCM and modules into local product. These were not signs of an imminent retirement, something doesnt add up . If Ford AUS knew their fate all along, why all the effort? Ford Aus Engineers must have been very passionate and dedicated to their product. Poor blokes must have spent endless hours pouring their heart and soul into the product. Can't say that Ford AUS didn't try. Driving any of their latest creations, you can definitely 'feel the difference'. Guess the Australian buying public wouldn't care less. Same thing cannot be said about VE Commodore or Cruze. Both are as stale as something from 2001 (VE feel like a reskinned VX and Cruze on par with a 90s Vectra), have yet to see if VF is a major change.

[Cuyper]

The VN-VS is truly a new skin on a VB but come on the VE is a totally different car, its a Commodore by name only. In fact its the most Holden Holden ever. The HQ is a straight up F body chev with a different skin...

[XBGTFGGTP]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

Hang on, Holden is yelling you how it is, but people on here don’t like it!!! It is disgusting to them!!

I guess as an Australian, I like things to be built there.. Call me dumb!!

Holden were just waiting for Ford to announce closing down so Ford cop the most crap. It's easy for Holden to now follow so people think they are the good guys. If it wasn't for the govt GM would of closed Holden years ago.

[desGT]

Originally Posted by P6LTD351

I just fell off my chair too.

They do say that ignorance is bliss.

Do you really think that these decisions are made at a whim? These things take ages. Sometimes I wish I was naive though. It would make me more optimistic rather than pessimistic.

Ages?

In 2007 Ford announced they were going to add the Focus to the production line at Broadmeadows, using significant locally produced product. A huge announcement for Australia, workers in the car industry.

Two years later (not exactly "ages"), Ford announced the cancellation of the Focus production in Australia. Allowing the period after announcement and the period leading up to the cancellation, I would suggest things happened within a few months to change their mind.

Not canning Ford, world economics changed a lot during that period (including the GFC). But it does show how plans can change almost within months.

Holden are trying to commit to beyond 2016/7. There is possibly, as others have said, a number of plans on the corporate drawing board, including remaining in Australia, getting out, different dates, play it as it goes (more than likely at the moment), all of which could change within months based on economics, Australian $, and yes, even workers.

I wish Holden the best for the future for the Australian produced cars which mean jobs for Australians. As has been my way for many decades and many cars, I will try and continue to purchase Australian for as long as I can. Been mainly Ford, till now....

[BroadyFord]

Holden workers expected to vote 'yes' to new wage deal


http://mobile.news.com.au/business/c...-1226695829879

HOLDEN workers are expected to vote "yes" to changes in wages and conditions that will help secure the manufacturing future of the company to 2022.

The 1700 votes will be tallied, but Holden won't reveal the outcome until later in the week.

A further 1000 Holden workers in Victoria - employed in engineering and at the engine factory in Port Melbourne - are obliged to vote on the changes affecting their South Australian colleagues even though the new deal does not apply to them.

Critical to the positive outcome is the first point in the new agreement that protects Holden factory workers if the car giant backs out of its plans to invest $1 billion in two new models over the next 10 years.

If Holden does not go ahead with those plans by this December then workers will automatically stay on their current wages and conditions - but the factory will likely close at the end of 2016, about the same time as Ford.

The SA secretary of the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union John Camillo, who has been talking to workers on the production line during negotiations and then every day since the new agreement was published, says he has "a gut feeling" the 1700 employees will vote for the changes.

During preliminary negotiations Mr Camillo said up to 90 per cent of workers were ready to vote "no" because at the time Holden was foreshadowing wage cuts of up to $200 a week and putting a 52-week cap on redundancy payouts.

"My gut feeling is that the vote will get up," Mr Camillo said last night. "But to be honest it's too close to call. It's up to the workers to decide."

The unions and Holden have been silent on predicting an outcome. Mr Camillo said he would not advise members either way.

But Mr Camillo says the mood has changed now that workers have a better understanding of the new deal, which still gives them bigger productivity bonuses than Toyota factory workers even though Holden wages have been frozen for three years.

"Last week there was a strong rejection because there was a lot of confusion about the wording of the contract," said Mr Camillo. "Up to 90 per cent were going to vote no. But as we explained things to everyone, the balance has swung more and more the other way."

Mr Camillo said the whole process has been emotionally draining on its workers.

"There are a lot of people very concerned about paying their mortgage, their bills and what the future is for Holden," said Mr Camillo.

"People have been going to work every day under stress because they don't know what the outcome is going to be. The uncertainty is causing them a lot of issues."

Even if Holden workers vote "yes" to the changes, the manufacturing future of the company is not guaranteed until it secures further support from the Federal government after the September election.

Holden is due to start installing new equipment by the end of this year to prepare for the cars it will build from 2017 to 2022.

"We will see the groundwork being done in the body shop in October, November, December this year ... and if that work commences we know Holden is fair dinkum in regards to the new models."

Last week the president of the Australian Council Trade Unions Ged Kearney took the unusual step of voicing her support for the new deal.

"This has been a hard decision, what has been negotiated at Holden, and I'm really incredibly proud of the union to have come to this point," Ms Kearney told the National Press Club in Canberra.

"We've done it before. Back in the '80s we sacrificed a three per cent pay rise to implement superannuation. I hope (the workers) look to the long-term viability of that industry and that company."

[GQ_Smooth]

Looks like the unions will be winning the PR war if they agree to the new terms.

Although saying mentioning the workers are stressed with the future of their employment, welcome to every job in 2013 (unless you work in a criminal detention facility).

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by XBGTFGGTP

Holden were just waiting for Ford to announce closing down so Ford cop the most crap. It's easy for Holden to now follow so people think they are the good guys. If it wasn't for the govt GM would of closed Holden years ago.

Exactly, Ford has made it much easier for them to close. So why go through all this BS, if they "have already decided to close" & "Ford has now made it easier to do so". This line of thinking just doesn't add up IMO. Holden are trying to keep the doors open, it is clear for everyone to see!!

[JG34JA]

Think this link will be worth a read:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100954793Sent

"General Motors has begun gradually cutting its presence in South Korea after mounting labor costs and militant unionism triggered a rethink of its reliance on the country for a fifth of its global production, three individuals familiar with GM's thinking said. "

It seems that GM is not only considering high costs of manufacturing in Australia...

[EDManual]

any news?

[BroadyFord]

UPDATE:

Holden Adelaide workers vote YES to new EBA.

Still need support of Melbourne workers for it to take effect.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by EDManual

any news?

They just had John Camillo on ABC news, indicating that it was a yes vote to the changes. On the condition that Holden commit to the 2016 updates.

[BroadyFord]

So far they've gotten further than Opel in Bochum!

[BroadyFord]

I actually really admire the workers; real commitment..

Holden workers vote yes


http://www.carsguide.com.au/news-and...rkers_vote_yes

Union boss delivers the emotional news, but future not guaranteed until after election.
Holden workers have voted “yes” to new wages and conditions but the manufacturing future of the company won’t be guaranteed until after the Federal election.

The 1700 employees at the Elizabeth assembly line this afternoon voted in favour of the new workplace agreement which will see wages capped for three years, require a faster turnaround time on overtime shifts and new restrictions on annual leave, among other changes.

An emotional John Camillo, the SA secretary of the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union, told reporters outside the Holden factory: “The workers have voted clear majority vote to support the next generation of vehicles here in Australia. It’s been a tough choice (but) they made the right decision. We now call on the Coalition and the Government to support the car industry.”
Mr Camillo said he would not reveal the details of the split in favour of the conditions but emphasized: “A very clear majority. It was a strong vote, a positive yes. They really wanted to vote no but at the end of the day they know they’re voting for their future … to keep this company going for 10 years.”

A glassy-eyed Mr Camillo, who had to pause at times to gather his comments, said: “It’s been a very tough time for our members and their families (but) these workers have voted and now it’s time for politicians to come forward and show their support for the industry”.

Mr Camillo conceded workers didn’t have “much of a bargaining chip” because car factory wages were being reviewed globally.

The vote won’t be complete until the deadline passes for their colleagues in engineering and at the engine factory in Victoria to vote on the new deal over the next three days -- even though it does not directly apply to them.

The Victorian workers are allowed to vote on the changes affecting South Australian colleagues because it falls under a national Enterprise Bargaining Agreement. But the vote is not compulsory and unions have advised that the 1000 workers in Victoria are unlikely to vote on the deal.

“The stewards want to respect the rights of South Australian workers to determine their future,” said Dave Smith the national secretary of the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union vehicles division.

“We are going to recommend to our members that they abstain from voting. They are mindful of the difficult circumstances the SA workers are in. But the variation (to the workplace agreement) only applies to them so it’s only fitting that they decide their future. If it’s a close call we don’t want to influence it either way.”

The deadline for the vote in Victoria is late on Friday afternoon.

However Holden’s future won’t be secure until some time soon after the Federal election on September 7.

Holden boss Mike Devereux and General Motors’ global head of manufacturing Tim Lee are due to meet with the government of the day some time in September.

The clock is ticking for Holden and General Motors because the company must begin laying the groundwork for future models later this year and over the summer break.

The new workplace agreement is due to commence in November – providing Holden recommits to investing $1 billion in assembling two new cars over the next 10 years.

Holden announced its future was secure until 2022 in March 2012 when it received $275 million in Federal and State funding.

But the company says market conditions have changed since then and plans to apply for further funding.

Given that Ford said double the amount of government investment was not enough to make its local manufacturing operations viable, Holden is understood to be asking for at least another $275 million.

That would mean taxpayers would fund about half the development of two new models. Previously the public purse has contributed about a quarter of the cost.

Holden has its eye on surplus funds in the Automotive Transformation Scheme, which has $3.4 billion set aside to assist the car industry to 2020.

There are believed to be untapped funds in the ATS because the output of local car makers is lower today than when the terms were set in 2009. The ATS pays car makers based on a number of factors including vehicle output and investment and are estimated to subsidise about $2300 per car.

[Bossxr8]

Word is Holden had to significantly change the offer they were putting to the employees before the vote, as it was going to be voted down. Some of the things they were asking for were absolutely ridiculous and they had to remove them from the offer for them to have any chance of it getting a yes vote.

Problem is now that the Libs will win the election, and they won't give Holden the money they want, so they are screwed either way. I heard Dave Smith say the other day if the Libs get in it's all over.


The one thing that is perplexing me, is that Holdens engine plant is finished come 2016, they have no further contract and GM are cutting their V6 engine plants from 4 to 2, and they are confirmed as being one of the plants closing. Why hasn't this been in the news?

[fte50]

Well done on a unanimous decision to not only secure their own personal futures, but also those of their brothers in the supplier industries. Hooray to unionism.

Lets hope GM play fair.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by fte50

Lets hope GM play fair.

[fte50]

And yes, unfortunately the above represents most of our sentiments.

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by fte50

Well done on a unanimous decision to not only secure their own personal futures, but also those of their brothers in the supplier industries. Hooray to unionism.

Lets hope GM play fair.

Now you can get off your soapbox and give everyone a break , please !

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by fte50

Well done on a unanimous decision to not only secure their own personal futures, but also those of their brothers in the supplier industries. Hooray to unionism.

Lets hope GM play fair.

Mate this is NOT a win for unionism. It has nothing to do with unionism. If the union had balls, they would have voted NO. There was no other option. The workers had no choice. Holden are gone. The only thing that the workers have secured is uncertainty.

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by desGT

Ages?

In 2007 Ford announced they were going to add the Focus to the production line at Broadmeadows, using significant locally produced product. A huge announcement for Australia, workers in the car industry.

Two years later (not exactly "ages"), Ford announced the cancellation of the Focus production in Australia. Allowing the period after announcement and the period leading up to the cancellation, I would suggest things happened within a few months to change their mind.

Not canning Ford, world economics changed a lot during that period (including the GFC). But it does show how plans can change almost within months.

Holden are trying to commit to beyond 2016/7. There is possibly, as others have said, a number of plans on the corporate drawing board, including remaining in Australia, getting out, different dates, play it as it goes (more than likely at the moment), all of which could change within months based on economics, Australian $, and yes, even workers.

I wish Holden the best for the future for the Australian produced cars which mean jobs for Australians. As has been my way for many decades and many cars, I will try and continue to purchase Australian for as long as I can. Been mainly Ford, till now....

Well for me, 'months' is ages. The guy before was saying that Ford didn't make a decision until the night before. Let's play fair when debating.

And...enjoy your Holden.

I wish Ford fans were as passionate as Holden fans...alas, we wonder why we find ourselves in this position.

[metalmania]

Holden are only interested in saving $ in the packages they will pay out in a few years time. With this wage freeze they will not only save in wages cost but also in the packages they pay out. Think about it 3% for each year, next 3 years. Thats at least 9% when they do decide to close some time after 2016.

[Polyal]

Hang on..Holden are in all sorts over $15m? And Ford just dropped $4m on a party with no show bags?

Its all BS and this will do nothing for the long term.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by P6LTD351

If the union had balls, they would have voted NO. There was no other option. .

Ahh yes, easy for the experts to say when its not affecting them. And I say experts because so many here know all of the operational dealings without ever having driven within a 100km radius of the place.

But to put it in perspective, its been flat out balls that's seen Holden workers earn amongst the best wages/conditions in this country to date.

[buggerlugs]

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/o...-1226695786178

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by fte50

Ahh yes, easy for the experts to say when its not affecting them. And I say experts because so many here know all of the operational dealings without ever having driven within a 100km radius of the place.

But to put it in perspective, its been flat out balls that's seen Holden workers earn amongst the best wages/conditions in this country to date.

Sorry , ignore last post you do work there . I didn't realise my apologies

[fte50]

Originally Posted by GREGL

Who really is the sensitive m....n on this . Numerous threads have been closed through your staunch views on topics like this. No one else's opinion is relevant unless they agree .

Wasn't that long ago you were saying anyone would be mad to take a pay cut to protect their job . Now it is win for the unions , come on .

Actually, could've been the scab views contributing to closed threads.

And comprehend / digest what you read as a complete view in a thread -
Yes I have indicated its mad given the circumstances, however I have also indicated the good, and the risks associated with both sides of this scenario and never openly have suggested a flat out NO. Big difference.

Don't try quote me as saying any different, and I suggest comprehend what you read before quoting others as well.