Legal advice needed for re-birthed fpv tyhpoon - Page 2

Morexbs · 28-09-2014, 08:48 PM

If you purchased the engine that is now in the car separately and have paperwork to prove it,that is your engine.Lodge a PPSR encumbrance on the engine immediately and they won't be able to sell the car with it.Also try to find out whether the car has gone to Manheim or Pickles Auctions and when you locate it,make them aware of your interest in the motor because normally they don't check engine numbers on salvage cars.

loony888 · 28-09-2014, 08:58 PM

my wife purchased a rebirthed car years ago, had it a few weeks and the police came and took it away on a tilt tray, she lost what she paid for the car and even though she had a history search done on the car in qld, (it had qld rego plates and sticker) because it was stolen and rebirther interstate she couldn't get any compensation for her loss as she didn't get a national history search done.
What really sucks is the police had the seller under surveillance and watched her buy the car to establish the crime that the seller was charged with.

My point, did you get a REV search done? if you did a nationwide one you may be able to get compensation through victims of crime, but to do that you need to show you accessed the government registry REVS to its full extent. at least, that's what we were told when we attempted to recover her loss.

Vallidium · 28-09-2014, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morexbs

If you purchased the engine that is now in the car separately and have paperwork to prove it,that is your engine.Lodge a PPSR encumbrance on the engine immediately and they won't be able to sell the car with it.Also try to find out whether the car has gone to Manheim or Pickles Auctions and when you locate it,make them aware of your interest in the motor because normally they don't check engine numbers on salvage cars.

That's actually really helpful thanks mate, it makes sense aswell, if I put an encumbrance on the engine it would mean it's illegal for it to be sold. As long as it can be removed after its all sorted out which I don't see why it couldn't be, I'll definitely be looking into this avenue tomorrow. Thanks heaps ! That's interesting thay they don check engine numbers at the auctions, I'd assume that they would there to save themselves hassles

Vallidium · 28-09-2014, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loony888

my wife purchased a rebirthed car years ago, had it a few weeks and the police came and took it away on a tilt tray, she lost what she paid for the car and even though she had a history search done on the car in qld, (it had qld rego plates and sticker) because it was stolen and rebirther interstate she couldn't get any compensation for her loss as she didn't get a national history search done.
What really sucks is the police had the seller under surveillance and watched her buy the car to establish the crime that the seller was charged with.

My point, did you get a REV search done? if you did a nationwide one you may be able to get compensation through victims of crime, but to do that you need to show you accessed the government registry REVS to its full extent. at least, that's what we were told when we attempted to recover her loss.

Again, thanks mate this is also very helpful, I did do 3 different checks on the cars chassis number before I purchased it, I still have the receipts for the payments to check the numbers and the copies of the reports I was given with dates they were done so if it all turns to **** hopefully I can recover some costs through that avenue.

**cs123** · 28-09-2014, 09:12 PM

I don't understand. How does the ECU identify the car. If the frame is a XT and it had a bunch of stolen parts fitted like driveline then doesn't that mean the frame is yours?

Vallidium · 28-09-2014, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cs123

I don't understand. How does the ECU identify the car. If the frame is a XT and it had a bunch of stolen parts fitted like driveline then doesn't that mean the frame is yours?

The actual car is the Stolen 2007 typhoon, the only part of the xt falcon is the numbers, the best way to describe it is like getting a texta and writing the numbers from the xt falcon onto the stolen car, the car was never even pulled apart, just the nunbers transferred over

**cs123** · 28-09-2014, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallidium

The actual car is the Stolen 2007 typhoon, the only part of the xt falcon is the numbers, the best way to describe it is like getting a texta and writing the numbers from the xt falcon onto the stolen car, the car was never even pulled apart, just the nunbers transferred over

They have already proven that? I thought it was pretty hard to transfer the VINs across these days with the anti-tamper vin stickers

Vallidium · 28-09-2014, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cs123

They have already proven that? I thought it was pretty hard to transfer the VINs across these days with the anti-tamper vin stickers

Yes, they sent the car away to have it checked properly and the detective said that they spray that data dot in special places all over the vehicles parts, so it was sent away to have it all checked and they confirmed it. I was hoping that it was just some stolen parts but they say it's the whole car. The stickers in the door frame looked fine to me and the vin# in the bay didn't look strange to me but I'm definitely no expert

**cs123** · 28-09-2014, 09:41 PM

So they found the dots on the car frame and not just the parts? The reason I ask is that they might have just transferred all parts across into the XT. I'm curious to know if they picked them up on the body too.

11ford11 · 28-09-2014, 09:50 PM

enquire thru your insurance company as to if they have a legal service you can speak to -brother in-law lost GTHO years ago (after rebuilding) had to take action against dealer he purchased from who closed down lost the lot - be aware of what it will cost you if you persue !

Vallidium · 28-09-2014, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cs123

So they found the dots on the car frame and not just the parts? The reason I ask is that they might have just transferred all parts across into the XT. I'm curious to know if they picked them up on the body too.

I'm honestly not too sure where they took the samples from, I did question the copper as to whether they were 110% sure that it was just the stolen parts but he said it was definitely the whole car. I am still sceptical though, are there those data dots on the actual body as well as parts ?

madfordfan · 28-09-2014, 10:32 PM

Similar story with a mate years ago. Had 15k in receipts on money spent on rebirthed car got him no where. He bought from a licenced dealer that had closed business prior to car being discovered rebirthed. He learnt a valuable lesson the expensive way.

Geoff

**cs123** · 28-09-2014, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallidium

I'm honestly not too sure where they took the samples from, I did question the copper as to whether they were 110% sure that it was just the stolen parts but he said it was definitely the whole car. I am still sceptical though, are there those data dots on the actual body as well as parts ?

Don't know much about them. But in my mind it's important to know the answer. If the car is actually the XT running the stolen parts then I think you can make a claim for the engine.

It would pay to speak to someone in the know. They will have to prove that the car frame has been rebirthed.

Cashie · 28-09-2014, 10:40 PM

Yep, it sounds like a rebirth. They've transferred the XT details onto the Typhoon. The data dots and ECU will be keyed to the Typhoons VIN.
This really sux for you as a buyer, you do all the REVS checks and it will show up clear (the XT would have been a write off most likely).
Get legal advice and try to get your engine back asap.

sr71 · 28-09-2014, 11:30 PM

About 15-18 years ago, a mate had his white XF Fairmont Ghia confiscated, as it had been rebirthed. It was actually meant to be a blue XF Falcon.
The original owner had 30 ways of identifying it as his old (bought new) Ghia. Such as Velcro straps in the boot holding tools together, Repco replacement auto aerial, etc.
My mate got the car back, as it owed him more than it owed GIo/NRMA (forget which one now) . So insurance paid out $8500, but he paid $9000 for the car, off the Rebirther. He paid cash too, as I remember the cops asking him where he got that cash from.
He had to go to a holding yard, and watch a massive forklift take it off a rack, and damage the underside of it with the fork tynes. They didn't care, but he did get it back.
I'm guessing the insurance paid out more for the FPV, than you did for the 'XT'?
Good luck

MattSAU2XR8 · 29-09-2014, 12:18 AM

Post above regarding putting an encumbrance on the engine sounds great, will be very interested to hear how this goes!

Also, once he's been to court and been convicted you might be able to arrange for a Garnishee (or similar) order in NSW to force him to pay you back for your loss. I'm not a lawyer (talk to yours) but I understand that this means the court rules that he owes you a certain amount and has to pay a certain amount back each week until the debt is cleared, so long as the repayments leave him with at least $460 per week to live on. Even if you get $5 per week for the rest of your life its better than nothing.

In Victoria at least you can also (or could) ask the court for a Promisary Note which meant that if he has no money now, you can arrange for the Sheriff to pay him a visit at any time in the future when he does have some assets and confiscate them and either sell them or give them to you.

Downside of both of these is that if he has little assets then you won't be getting any money any time soon, or possibly ever. Upside is that if he isn't the brightest spark and doesn't have any money and has been freshly convicted then he can't really fight the orders. So it might not cost you much to set up and at least he has some legal/financial complications looming over him to teach him a lesson, since he may well get a slap on the wrist with a wet tram ticket when he goes to court.

Possibly down the line if you get sick of waiting you could engage a debt collection agency to harass him on a commission basis :-)

Not sure if any of this would achieve much financially but it might make you feel a bit better without costing too much more.

XR Martin · 29-09-2014, 06:39 AM

Datadots is sprayed under the car once its assembled and complete, so yes it will be on everything.

xxx000 · 29-09-2014, 09:22 AM

I doubt that the dollar cost of any legal action would be worth it. The best you'd end up with would be the engine and that's not much of a win considering time off work and legal fees which are always substantial.

Moving on would be far less of a headache.

Vallidium · 29-09-2014, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxx000

I doubt that the dollar cost of any legal action would be worth it. The best you'd end up with would be the engine and that's not much of a win considering time off work and legal fees which are always substantial.

Moving on would be far less of a headache.

Yeah I'm pretty much stuck, if the insurance company doesn't want to work something out outside of court then I won't really have any other option than to just let it go. I have a feeling that they will probably want a rediculous amount of money for the vehicle even if they do agree the engine is mine. I guess time will tell. This all started in January and is still on going, I will be surprised if it's sorted out anytime soon.

Thanks to everyone for your input aswell, any and all info/experiences are appreciated, gives me a good idea atleast of what to expect and prepare for !

And to anyone looking at buying a re-shell or car that has had major work done just be very carefull and thorough !

steve.zissou · 29-09-2014, 10:36 AM

couldn't you go through small claims court for the engine. You could just be enough of a PIA to the insurer (they wont want to take the engine out or pay you separately or go through the hassle of small claims) that they might be inclined to strike a deal.

my understanding is its very cheap to go through small claims (less than 10,000 claims)

**cs123** · 29-09-2014, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Datadots is sprayed under the car once its assembled and complete, so yes it will be on everything.

Well that's the question that needs to be confirmed. Is it on everything or just the driveline and suspension.

And you would imagine the flip side is that VIN is the proof of identity so as part of this process the police would need to show that the VIN has been altered too.

NX74205 · 29-09-2014, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Talk to the insurance company.
Explain the engine change, did you get it re registered with the new engine number?
If so, and you have proof of purchase of the replacement engine then you may be able to negotiate a purchase price, using your ownership of the motor as bargaining strength, for the vehicle based on market value for a non drivable(blown motor etc.) example.
All the insurance company will want is as much as they can recover with the least amount of hassle.

It'll give him some degree of bargaining strength - as someone mentioned before, maybe register the motor on the PPSR. But that's as far as it goes.

OP, you should seek professional advice prior to doing so. There are laws governing what can and cannot be registered on the PPSR, as well as the legal ramifications - such as whether or not it'll have any real effect. The car is considered as the whole - shell, drivetrain and motor. Registering a security interest on the car is no problem, but registering a security interest on a motor might prove to be difficult and/or ineffective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nstg8a

I would have thought if you have proof of purchase for the replacement motor then they would have to at least have that back? Otherwise aren't they basically stealing it off you?

That might work if the OP still has the original blown motor with which to replace it.

Stefan · 29-09-2014, 12:58 PM

A member of my car club (and incidentally this forum) bought a XY GT replica many many years ago for $10K, it was a good replica with many HO parts fitted.

Car got inspected numbers x-rayed etc, it turns out it was a stolen Genuine XY GTHO!!!

Not sure how but somehow he got to keep it and still owns his $10k Genuine GTHO Phase 3.

He's a forum member too and quite a regular poster.

Some guys buy GTHOs only to get screwed and receive a tarted up Falcon 500, this guy buys a GT replica only to find out its a genuine GTHO Phase 3.

raised by monkeys · 29-09-2014, 01:10 PM

Did you do a government vehicle history check or any other paper work? If you did and nothing showed up on it, it may be possible to go through the court system to show that you unknowingly bought a stolen vehicle and stack up some evidence as to why you be able to at least have the engine back.

Vallidium · 29-09-2014, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NX74205

It'll give him some degree of bargaining strength - as someone mentioned before, maybe register the motor on the PPSR. But that's as far as it goes.

OP, you should seek professional advice prior to doing so. There are laws governing what can and cannot be registered on the PPSR, as well as the legal ramifications - such as whether or not it'll have any real effect. The car is considered as the whole - shell, drivetrain and motor. Registering a security interest on the car is no problem, but registering a security interest on a motor might prove to be difficult and/or ineffective.

That might work if the OP still has the original blown motor with which to replace it.

unfortunately I don't have the engine that was pulled from the car originally either. I figured if it got to that point which I don't think it will, that I'd just buy a blown turbo motor to swap out. When I found a replacement engine it was sent straight to my mechanic to be swapped out because the car was in his shop taking up room, once he swapped the engines I took the car and didn't really care what was done with the old one as it was stuffed anyway.

Vallidium · 29-09-2014, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve.zissou

couldn't you go through small claims court for the engine. You could just be enough of a PIA to the insurer (they wont want to take the engine out or pay you separately or go through the hassle of small claims) that they might be inclined to strike a deal.

my understanding is its very cheap to go through small claims (less than 10,000 claims)

Yeah what I'm hoping is that the insurance coy will just want it sorted as quickly as possible and that they will hopefully give me a realistic price for the whole car and not try and empty my pockets

Vallidium · 29-09-2014, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan

A member of my car club (and incidentally this forum) bought a XY GT replica many many years ago for $10K, it was a good replica with many HO parts fitted.

Car got inspected numbers x-rayed etc, it turns out it was a stolen Genuine XY GTHO!!!

Not sure how but somehow he got to keep it and still owns his $10k Genuine GTHO Phase 3.

He's a forum member too and quite a regular poster.

Some guys buy GTHOs only to get screwed and receive a tarted up Falcon 500, this guy buys a GT replica only to find out its a genuine GTHO Phase 3.

This is exactly the same as what has happened to me. Would love to know how he managed to keep the car !! This would be the best case scenario for me but I'm not holding my breath lol

blackf6 · 29-09-2014, 03:22 PM

I be changing my user name to Valium mate.

Vallidium · 29-09-2014, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teak81

I be changing my user name to Valium mate.

Haha yeah mate if anything this whole process so far has taught me patience. I'm pretty sure the copper looking after the whole thing is sick of me calling him lol. It's just such a long process, even now I couldnt even guess how much longer this will take.

STINKY NINJA · 29-09-2014, 05:43 PM

i think red flags would have popped up for me when the guy wouldnt do the deal at his own house...