Why do cammed ls motors sound and go better?

[GTP-RPD]

Originally Posted by zilo

I prefer a sweet perfectly pitched turbo sound in every way compared to a rough shakey cam.

Nah to appliancey.

Reminds me of the wife using the mixer in the kitchen. Lol.

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by TheZHLANE

Don't know about sound but they definitely go better than the slug 5.4s.

Post #12 for you sir........

[HULK_I6T]

Originally Posted by PepeLePew

In a previous life I had a head cam (fair bit of overlap) LS1 mafless tune OTR 3" single and 287rwkw from 227rwkw. Head cam part was 5.5k drive in drive out. OMG the sound of the thing. Later of course I had a call from the new owner asking if I had the stock exhaust to try and quieten it and get the yellow off he'd collected. But the sound OMG. I have a video I saved of ur last day I had it and I miss that sound sooooo

With 3.91's in the manual it was tons of fun. About on the civilized limit of what could be gotten out of the 5.7 at the time with a cam. I do miss it a tad, the Miami is a magnificent stick but it just wish sometimes it was a bit less civilised with more V8 darkness/mood, more America less Euro (not like you car about that when you give it a shove). It's just that damn sweet and dare I say sophisticated. Anyone got a link to a example of a cammed version of either I don't think I've heard a cammed 5.4 or 5.0?

Sound exactly like my old cammed ls1 from years ago.. had the wife of new owner call me 6 months after purchase complaining that its illegal and her husband was caught by police doing burnouts.. car impounded. What can i do?

[2011G6E]

Doesn't have to be overly loud to sound nice either...it's actually louder than it sounds in this short video taken with a phone (you really need speakers on your computer...can't even hear it on my laptop) and when it warms up properly the lumpy idle is more noticeable, and it really has a lovely note to it. Sometimes the old ways are best...naturally aspirated, flowed heads, cam, extractors, and free flowing twin 2" system...of course that's only a little 253...

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by Bluey-GT

Post #12 for you sir........

There are other variants of LS engines besides the LS1

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by 40RDT

There are other variants of LS engines besides the LS1

Yes there are - but the results are the same.
and the more you push the LS motors - the more inconsistent they get.
Bad heat soak , high coolant and high oil temps.
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...ght=plot+twist

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by Bluey-GT

Yes there are - but the results are the same.
and the more you push the LS motors - the more inconsistent they get.
Bad heat soak , high coolant and high oil temps.
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...ght=plot+twist

How are the results the same? Head and cam LS3's make alot more power than head and cam LS1's, they make more power than cammed 5.4's too from what ive seen.

[Mr Hardware]

Originally Posted by Express

I grew up listening to the hotdog exhausts of the 60’s and 70’s V8’s and they are still the pinnacle for me. I struggle with the newer sound.

This is exactly where I'm at too. LS, Boss and Miami motors sound good, but they will never have that raw mongrel tough sound that the old V8s have, including a 304.

Thanks for the videos Express, they were great to listen to. You can't hear that 304 without thinking about the heyday of Brocky at Bathurst

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by 40RDT

How are the results the same? Head and cam LS3's make alot more power than head and cam LS1's, they make more power than cammed 5.4's too from what ive seen.

Point I was tryint to make is that all the LSX motors seem to suffer with greater inconsistencies in their Dyno numbers and Power figures.
There are also so many more options for the LSX motors than there are for the Aussie Boss........
Most of the cammed Boss motors also seem to be Boss 260 variants - not 290/302/315 - so many of the comparisons are coming off a lower base to begin with. Also worthy to note that the ford Sedans are just so much damned heavier than their Holden equivalents - from 150kg+ in B series v VY/VZ series to anthing from 50-70 kg heavier in FG v VE/VF......

End of the day - I like the sound of the LSX motors - they sound tuff.
But I like the sound of a Tuff cammed Boss better. One of the best I've heard is my bros Cammed Boss 290 BAGT. Goes like stink too with 330RWKW.

I guess in terms of cost and options availability - yes the LSX motors are a better / easier proposition. Fair nuff.

[fgpsi]

Originally Posted by zilo

I prefer a sweet perfectly pitched turbo sound in every way compared to a rough shakey cam.

I call bull chit

[madmelon]

The reason an LS engine sounds 'meaner'- that is lumpier and angrier than any of the Boss or Coyote/Miami engines is because it has 2 valves per cylinder vs 4 valves in the Ford engines. The substantially larger flow area achieved with 4V heads means a much smaller cam duration is required to achieve the same power/torque figures. The smaller cam duration in turn gives lower overlap and so a much less lumpy and aggressive sound. The sound is further 'softened' when Dual VCT is used to reduce overlap at idle and low rpm (Coyote, AMG, BMW, etc V8s) hence all the modern DOHC/4V V8's don't sound 'old school'.

As found sounding 'better'- that's a pretty subjective matter.

[2011G6E]

Come on...
When it comes to V8's, it never ends...Old skool, new skool, injected, blown, turboed, NA, standard, worked, Ford, Holden, Chev, Dodge...the arguments for and against are literally endless..

But as the little girl in the taco advert said so amazingly well...

[701let]

Originally Posted by Bluey-GT

Point I was tryint to make is that all the LSX motors seem to suffer with greater inconsistencies in their Dyno numbers and Power figures.
There are also so many more options for the LSX motors than there are for the Aussie Boss........
Most of the cammed Boss motors also seem to be Boss 260 variants - not 290/302/315 - so many of the comparisons are coming off a lower base to begin with. Also worthy to note that the ford Sedans are just so much damned heavier than their Holden equivalents - from 150kg+ in B series v VY/VZ series to anthing from 50-70 kg heavier in FG v VE/VF......

End of the day - I like the sound of the LSX motors - they sound tuff.
But I like the sound of a Tuff cammed Boss better. One of the best I've heard is my bros Cammed Boss 290 BAGT. Goes like stink too with 330RWKW.

I guess in terms of cost and options availability - yes the LSX motors are a better / easier proposition. Fair nuff.

not really mate. any reputable workshop can probably tell you within a handful of KW what you are going to make in a cammed LS1, LS2, L98/76 or LS3 with the standard mods (exhaust, cam, otr, etc)
They are very consistent as are the times they will lay down over 400m as well.

agree with you re: weight pre VE, but I think you will find any VE HSV is weighing in at around the 1800kg mark. An FG would have to be slightly lighter.

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by 701let

agree with you re: weight pre VE, but I think you will find any VE HSV is weighing in at around the 1800kg mark. An FG would have to be slightly lighter.

In 5.0 S/C guise - they may be similar

in 5.4 Iron Block guise - the FPV's were always @45 - 50kg heavier FG v VE

[blk6t]

I have never cammed a V8 but owned both the 6L (SSV, still own it) and the 5.4 Boss in a BF2 XR8. Actually sold the XR8 for the SSV.

I think the Boss revved harder in the top end but for a shorter range and hit the limiter too early. The 6L revs harder down low and is more consistent through the rev range. But the top end of the Boss put a smile on my dial every time.

Both don't compare to the GT 335. Forced induction vs natural...

[Express]

Originally Posted by 40RDT

There are other variants of LS engines besides the LS1

There sure is and the differences in the head design of the later engines over the LS1 is one of the big factors as to why the new motors are a much better proposition than the old LS1.

The problem with the LS1 & LS2 was their restrictive cathedral port shaped heads which makes them hard to get easy power from.

The L92 type heads used on the LS3 onwards and the L98 & L77 have much better factory flow capabilities and respond to cams, exhausts and tunes much better than the LS1.

Without getting into the specifics of the head variation for the many difference GM Engines the basics are as follows:

LS1/2


L92




It took a lot of porting on my LS2 to get it to flow and it still didn't come close to matching the L92.

[Franco Cozzo]

Which one is better for low down/mid range torque? Why did they do the cathedral port design in the first place?

[Express]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Which one is better for low down/mid range torque? Why did they do the cathedral port design in the first place?

Engines from all manufacturers evolve over the years and GM engines are no exception.

Head design from back in the days of the SBC has progressed as the manufacturer searches for more power and/or efficient new designs.

The LS7 head is similar to the L92 only that the ports are bigger and it flows better because of it.

Some heads are interchangeable and some not depending on the engine block bore size.

Which has the better low and midrange torque?

Well that’s simple, the newer LS engines are a larger capacity to start with and they have a higher compression ratio, they beat the LS1 hands down on all fronts.

Compression
LS1 5.7 litre 10.1:1
LS2 6 litre 10.9:1
L98 6 litre 10.4:1 – early VE SS
L77 6 litre 10.4:1 (AFM) later VE SS and VF
LS3 6.2 litre 10.7:1
LS7 7 litre 11.0:1

[Franco Cozzo]

The new LT1 (Not the LS1 pre-cursor) is high compression as well too and has direct injection, I think its like 11.0:1 as well.

[Falcman0o7]

LS1's are *** man ask mi cuz dazza

[GTP-RPD]

Originally Posted by Express

Engines from all manufacturers evolve over the years and GM engines are no exception.

Head design from back in the days of the SBC has progressed as the manufacturer searches for more power and/or efficient new designs.

The LS7 head is similar to the L92 only that the ports are bigger and it flows better because of it.

Some heads are interchangeable and some not depending on the engine block bore size.

Which has the better low and midrange torque?

Well that’s simple, the newer LS engines are a larger capacity to start with and they have a higher compression ratio, they beat the LS1 hands down on all fronts.

Compression
LS1 5.7 litre 10.1:1
LS2 6 litre 10.9:1
L98 6 litre 10.4:1 – early VE SS
L77 6 litre 10.4:1 (AFM) later VE SS and VF
LS3 6.2 litre 10.7:1
LS7 7 litre 11.0:1

The 243 casting cathedral port heads were from the LS6 corvette engine and the cts v caddy then only fitted to the LS2 later. The LS6 was the hi-po version of the LS1 and the heads had sodium filled valves. Displacement was the only similarity. The LS2 didnt get the good valves.

Think of the 243's like 4V Cleveland heads with small chambers and designed for higher rpm application and top end performance.

[GTP-RPD]

Back in 2010 a ls2 built for circuit racing here in Adelaide made 358 rwkw (483 rwhp) still running stock intake with a 90mm TB.

Motor is stock 6L short motor - the only changes from stock were ported LS2 heads with bigger valves, cam, rollmaster timing set, roller rockers and a rhemac circuit sump.

The porting
Intake:

.1 - 73.4
.2 - 145.7
.3 - 212.6
.4 - 265.2 - 543hp
.5 - 303.3 - 621hp
.6 - 327.8 - 671hp
.65 - 334.5 - 685hp
.7 - 338.6 - 693hp

The head guys said with a little more time they could go 700hp @ .650" lift with a 2.055" valve.

I know we are ford guys but I love engine development.

[GTP-RPD]

At the time another big $$ 6L was on Bruce Heinrichs dyno as well, built bottom end, rectangle port L98 heads stuffed full of huge valves & ported heavily, 12.5:1, solid roller cam, FAST intake, dry sump etc etc.

Made 352rwkw & a LOT less through the midrange.....

It is always match the parts, bigger is often not better, everything must work together - airspeed through the heads is critical, big ports suck, the right sized ports win.

[Express]

Originally Posted by GTP-RPD

The 243 casting cathedral port heads were from the LS6 corvette engine and the cts v caddy then only fitted to the LS2 later. The LS6 was the hi-po version of the LS1 and the heads had sodium filled valves. Displacement was the only similarity. The LS2 didnt get the good valves.

Think of the 243's like 4V Cleveland heads with small chambers and designed for higher rpm application and top end performance.

Yeah the 243 heads were fitted to the LS2 & LS6 and the 241 heads to the LS1.

The basic cathedral port design was the same for the LS1, LS2 & LS6.

The LS2 was the Aussie’s (tamer compared to the LS6) hi-po version of the LS1 and was fitted to the run out VZ HSV’s and the new released VE HSV’s.

I don’t think the LS6 was used in the GM cars here.

There is a lot more that can be said about the hardware and design of heads fitted to GM engines but just the basics to show the flow difference from the old LS1 to the newer LS models is all I intended.

[Express]

Originally Posted by GTP-RPD

Back in 2010 a ls2 built for circuit racing here in Adelaide made 358 rwkw (483 rwhp) still running stock intake with a 90mm TB.

Motor is stock 6L short motor - the only changes from stock were ported LS2 heads with bigger valves, cam, rollmaster timing set, roller rockers and a rhemac circuit sump.

The porting
Intake:

.1 - 73.4
.2 - 145.7
.3 - 212.6
.4 - 265.2 - 543hp
.5 - 303.3 - 621hp
.6 - 327.8 - 671hp
.65 - 334.5 - 685hp
.7 - 338.6 - 693hp

The head guys said with a little more time they could go 700hp @ .650" lift with a 2.055" valve.

I know we are ford guys but I love engine development.

Sure the early LS engines can make big numbers if you want them too but they are not necessarily streetable or at least not as easy to live with as the newer LS engines for the same power outputs.

I’d never play with another LS2, I’d rather go forward.

I’ve had a couple of LS2 powered HSV’s and both needed work to unleash a bit more power.

I’ve got a two boxes of stock LS2 valves, springs, retainers, timing set, rockers, pushrods, gaskets, lifters, cams and such that were removed from the engines sitting in my garage.

I bought the VE Clubsport I posted in the video new at the end of 2006 when they were first released and after a couple of days I was disappointed as it was too underpowered so I sent it out for the head and cam job.

The heads were ported and the hardware upgraded and a custom grind Comp Cam installed.

The cam spec are:


....................INT........EXH
ADV DUR.......280........282
DUR@.050.....230........230
VALVE LIFT....613........609
LOBE SEP......112



Which could be referred to as a large small cam or a small large cam, take your pick.

As it was a new model there wasn’t much in the way of auxiliary parts available to suit the VE, I was lucky to get a catback from Walkinshaw before they opened up shop in Sydney, there were no cold air intakes available so a custom job was done based on the old two hole method.

With about 200 kilometres on the engine it pulled about 310kW at the wheels, respectable but nothing to write home about, particularly with such a heavy car.

Unfortunately the clutch didn’t like the upgrade and went south and the gearbox dropped its load on my garage floor.

This is what the finished job looked like.

[DJM83]

Lol this sounds so bad. /endsarcasm
https://youtu.be/xYTPLGcYVkU

[tezxr8man]

Originally Posted by PepeLePew

In a previous life I had a head cam (fair bit of overlap) LS1 mafless tune OTR 3" single and 287rwkw from 227rwkw. Head cam part was 5.5k drive in drive out. OMG the sound of the thing. Later of course I had a call from the new owner asking if I had the stock exhaust to try and quieten it and get the yellow off he'd collected. But the sound OMG. I have a video I saved of ur last day I had it and I miss that sound sooooo

With 3.91's in the manual it was tons of fun. About on the civilized limit of what could be gotten out of the 5.7 at the time with a cam. I do miss it a tad, the Miami is a magnificent stick but it just wish sometimes it was a bit less civilised with more V8 darkness/mood, more America less Euro (not like you car about that when you give it a shove). It's just that damn sweet and dare I say sophisticated. Anyone got a link to a example of a cammed version of either I don't think I've heard a cammed 5.4 or 5.0?

like the mod motor mustangs facebook page they are everywhere

[zilo]

Originally Posted by fgpsi

I call bull chit

You've obviously never owned a cammed street car.

I have and it gave me the cheets sitting at the lights with an auto trans...holding on to the pulsating brake pedal at the lights.

Try driving it anywhere except at a track and you'll look and feel and smell like a bogan....well you should...hmmm...I guess you might feel okay...

[AUwindsor]

Originally Posted by ratter

when playing with my Boss 290 years ago, we were seeing 280-290 rwkw from an unopened motor, head and cam package tuned LS1's we were seeing 260's on the same dyno

my head/cam stock ls1 346ci made 330rwkw. and did 120mph in the 1/4 n/a to back it up. in a vt r8

not all cams and heads are created equal.

a proper built lsx these days can disgrace built big blocks

[AUwindsor]

as for the cathedral / square port argument. cathedral ports still out ET the l92 and even some ls7 heads, in nat asp lsx's. flow on a bench isn't everything. many factors into how a car accelerates like air speed in ports.

the l92 (ls3) heads are superior when boosted. when the engine is crammed with air port velocity isn't as important as in a n/a engine

ls7's are raised ports over ls3's, so they work better on n/a applications than ls3's, but still need more CI's and more serious engine to take advantage of than a cathedral port

the record for quickest n/a 346ci ls1 in USA runs a cathedral head based off the 5.3l truck heads at the time. idiots that don't know the potential of the ls1 or the f-body Camaro will say it's got N2O

my heads were also CNC 5.3 cathedrals (factory castings) with 2.04/1.60 and just gained HP/torque everywhere on a standard 346 ls1. idiots will also say mine had N2O

idiots also think they vote for left or right and it makes any difference.