My story

[Stefan]

Should go tell the cops old mate is hooning in an AU.....

They'll be around his house with a swat team in 3 minutes.

Did you speak to the finance company? If there is a loan on the car you have no agreement with the finance company. They have an agreement with old mate and need to chase him for $$$.

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by Sam_Boss260

So you sold the BF that you bought that had an encumbrance on it of $12k to someone else for $1,200? And they didn't do a revs check on it either?

It will probably be $1200 of parts now ..

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by XF_Pilot

It is ALWAYS worth paying the $25 for the REVS history check, especially when the swap is so far in your favour price wise.

$3.40 to do a ppsr.

www.ppsr.gov.au

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Sam_Boss260

So you sold the BF that you bought that had an encumbrance on it of $12k to someone else for $1,200? And they didn't do a revs check on it either?

Who cares, cars probably are wreck now and finance company can chase the person who took out a loan.

[BENT_8]

Does they current owner know that it is encumbered.

I doubt the finance company will just give up on it, it is their only chance of recouping some of their investment.

Strange story, who would swap a BF for an AU regardless of condition, should have rung bells immediately.

I had a similar issue 21 years ago, bought an old XD from one of my brothers in 94, turns out another brother had borrowed thousands of dollars against it in personal loans and defaulted on it sometime in 96.
I traded the car in 95 at a car yard and the salesman didnt do a VSR check on it.
In 97 the finance company reposessed the car from the guy who bought it from the caryard, car yard was taken to court by him, car yard then took me to court, i then pointed them in the direction of my Brother and highlighted for the court that the dealer had made the biggest mistake for not doing a VRS check on the title. Judge found in my favour as i had bought the car with my own money in good faith and sold it in good faith, my Brother was forced to reimburse the car yard, car yard was grilled by the judge for not doing the title check and it all appeared in that weeks Sunday Mail.

I believe the OP will hear more, probably from a debt collector/repo man...good luck with that.

[Itsme]

All this means the original owner will be chased by the finance company/Debt collection agency for their money & if car is found in any ones possession by the finance company they will repossess it & you will will be at a loss for whatever you paid for it.
Any one who is buying a car should check with the Personal Properties securities register. (https://www.ppsr.gov.au/)

Remember this, it is not an illegal offense to sell a vehicle with encumbrance on it, otherwise Police will be involved.

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by khodeer

Yeah you guys are right I went to the police and they said it was a civil matter they couldnt do anything
Finances werent in my favour so I didnt resort to the courts etc
I could have went the backway and did things to allow me to keep the car but at the end of the day I wouldve never been truly happy knowing the situation and conclusively, that the car isnt even genuinely mine
I sold it to a guy for $1200 with 10 months reg on it and he can do whatever he wants with it, as long as the car wasnt in my name anymore the burden was off my back

You live and you learn surely ill be doing the check before purchasing any second hand vehicle

Wow, so you knowingly sold an encumbered car to another person.....your action right there is fraudulent, and puts you in the sights of the finance co. Tell me for the love of God, did you put it in your name before selling it with 10 months reg for $1200?? If you did there is an immediate paper trail to your door.
Finance can sue you, they will be pursuing the original owner, who will throw you under the bus as being in possession, the bloke you sold it to will loose the car, and can sue YOU civilly for his $1200 back.
Is that the case or did I misread somewhere?

[tut0r]

Originally Posted by danzvtil

Wow, so you knowingly sold an encumbered car to another person.....your action right there is fraudulent, and puts you in the sights of the finance co. Tell me for the love of God, did you put it in your name before selling it with 10 months reg for $1200?? If you did there is an immediate paper trail to your door.
Finance can sue you, they will be pursuing the original owner, who will throw you under the bus as being in possession, the bloke you sold it to will loose the car, and can sue YOU civilly for his $1200 back.
Is that the case or did I misread somewhere?

Why would the finance company chase the buyer? They have no connection with him besides the car, If the seller defaults, the finance company will reposes the car regardless of who owns it or if its been sold a dozen times. If they can track it down and take it they will as its legally owned by them.

I doubt the person who bought the BF for $1200 would sue, lets be honest its a BF xr annnnd you bought it for 1200. I'm sure they knew exactly what was going on.

My car was financed when I went to buy it, the seller was either trying to play dumb or was actually dumb on the issue and I had to guide him through the process of getting rid of the loan on the car. He basically just started a new loan and paid the car loan off so it had no debt so then I bought it.

PPSR check is always a must and I do one regardless. We all make mistakes but **** happens you live, you learn.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by danzvtil

Wow, so you knowingly sold an encumbered car to another person.....your action right there is fraudulent, and puts you in the sights of the finance co. Tell me for the love of God, did you put it in your name before selling it with 10 months reg for $1200?? If you did there is an immediate paper trail to your door.
Finance can sue you, they will be pursuing the original owner, who will throw you under the bus as being in possession, the bloke you sold it to will loose the car, and can sue YOU civilly for his $1200 back.
Is that the case or did I misread somewhere?

It is not fraudulent, the buyer probably most likely new of the encumbrance on the vehicle, he will run the risk of having it repossessed.

Tu0r comments are more factual.

[wackyv8]

what a saga! eitherway , do a check ,folks , and avoid all this bull****.

[Binny]

Sooooo did you get the name, address and licence number of the guy when you swapped cars?
Do you know if he has even transferred the rego of the AU to himself?
All you know he could be driving through speed cameras, toll ways and doing goodness knows what else in the AU while it is still registered in your name.
If he did deliberately shaft you with the encumbrance it may not be over yet.
I would be reporting the sale of the AU to RTA/TMR whatever asap regardless of whether you have his details or not.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by khodeer

Yeah you guys are right I went to the police and they said it was a civil matter they couldnt do anything
Finances werent in my favour so I didnt resort to the courts etc
I could have went the backway and did things to allow me to keep the car but at the end of the day I wouldve never been truly happy knowing the situation and conclusively, that the car isnt even genuinely mine
I sold it to a guy for $1200 with 10 months reg on it and he can do whatever he wants with it, as long as the car wasnt in my name anymore the burden was off my back

You live and you learn surely ill be doing the check before purchasing any second hand vehicle

You did what?? You knowingly sold a car you admitted here you knew was not yours...That perfectly fits the definition of stealing/larceny/fraud, you have now committed a criminal offence and admitted to it on a public forum

What was going on in your head

How much is the car worth?? May be from now on take an adult with you when you buy/sell stuff.

[XG_Falcon]

While I feel sorry for you having to go through this mess, I hope it will be a good life lesson.

Life doesn't forgive weakness. Remember that.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

You did what?? You knowingly sold a car you admitted here you knew was not yours...That perfectly fits the definition of stealing/larceny/fraud, you have now committed a criminal offence and admitted to it on a public forum

What was going on in your head

How much is the car worth?? May be from now on take an adult with you when you buy/sell stuff.

When did he say it wasn't his? If his name is on rego papers he can legally sell it. Hen can part it out, he can burn it, crush it or bury it.

When did he steal it? Who did he steal it from?

Actually rego papers don't prove ownership so his swap in good faith is good enough. He may have it in writing too.

Finance company have a potential problem with the guy who took out a loan, but he may be paying it off as you already pointed out.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by khodeer

I could have went the backway and did things to allow me to keep the car but at the end of the day I wouldve never been truly happy knowing the situation and conclusively, that the car isnt even genuinely mine
I sold it to a guy for $1200 with 10 months reg on it and he can do whatever he wants with it, as long as the car wasnt in my name anymore the burden was off my back

It's called 'Mens Rae' also referred to as a guilt mind, he knew what he was doing was wrong, the car does not belong to him, it belongs to the finance company, he has now knowingly disposed of property that he knew was not legally his, therefore denying the true owner of the vehicle possession of the vehicle that he is legally entitled to. Just because the original person also did the wrong thing (civilly as he breached the contract with the finance company and he may still have to answer for that to the finance company, and it probably destroyed his credit history).

The OP is now breached criminal law buy KNOWINGLY disposing of property he knew he has no legal right to, depriving the owner of the property (the definition of stealing/larceny). Does not really get any more cut and dry than that.

Law is pretty simple and straight forward.

Having your name on the rego papers does not mean it's yours, if the car belongs to me and your name is on the rego paper and I can prove it belongs to me than your name on the rego papers means nothing, how do you think finance companies legally repossess property such as cars and houses that may appear to belong to you but actually belong to the finance company.

He said in his opening post that the car had finance owing on it so it is not his, it belongs to the finance company.

[T MAN]

im wondering if he went back to the guy he swapped with asking to swap back?
if not why not?

on the other hand the original owner may do the right thing and continue paying the debt meaning he just sold the bf for $1200 for no reason..

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by T MAN

im wondering if he went back to the guy he swapped with asking to swap back?
if not why not?

on the other hand the original owner may do the right thing and continue paying the debt meaning he just sold the bf for $1200 for no reason..

Exactly right, has he even gone back to the original owner, who may have done nothing wrong and may continue paying the loan??

I don't get why he would have sold the car for $1200?? Surly it's worth a lot more than that.

The OP clearly should not be left alone to do these deals, but then again it's his money and his life, some people just struggle in life and make their life a lot more difficult than it has to be.

[Stefan]

Yeah right makes sense, guy knowingly swaps car with finance owing, its a civil matter no crime committed.

The person sells it on and has committed a crime...OK

Finance company does not own the car. The op has no agreement with finance company, and swapped it in good faith, finance company can reposes only if the the person defaults on the loan, even that is not straight forward. THEY DO NOT OWN IT!

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by T MAN

on the other hand the original owner may do the right thing and continue paying the debt meaning he just sold the bf for $1200 for no reason..

Maybe he disclosed to the guy he sold it to that money was owing, hence low sale price. Maybe his AU was only worth 500 anyway.

A mate "bought" a Porsche a few years back, price was only the cost of transferring rego. Bought the car knowing money was owing. Finance company came to repo car, he made them jump through a few hoops and continued the repayments on the money owing which was less then the car was worth.

Similar thing happened to maseratti, guys I worked with a few years back seemed to have good cashflow then none...they did this kind of crap all the time.

Not much info to go on, but I don't see where a crime was committed. Maybe not exactly moral but not a crime.

[XG_Falcon]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Yeah right makes sense, guy knowingly swaps car with finance owing, its a civil matter no crime committed.

The person sells it on and has committed a crime...OK

Finance company does not own the car. The op has no agreement with finance company, and swapped it in good faith, finance company can reposes only if the the person defaults on the loan, even that is not straight forward. THEY DO NOT OWN IT!

I think you'll find the creditor does in fact own the car. It always surprises me that most people either don't know this simple fact or don't want to know.

[cram_it_frog]

A simple way to stop this sort of thing is for the finance company,s name on the registration as a joint owner

so when a person goes to buy the car and first thing is to ask for rego papers and it has xyz finance as joint owner you walk away from the deal

simple solution

I personally cannot understand some people if i tried to do some thing like this i would not be able to for one not be able to look the guy in the face doing the deal and second not sleep at night worrying about what I did

[mike_nofx]

Does anyone know if the hand written receipts which often take place when buying and selling cars counts for anything legally?

Usually I will write in the receipt something along the lines of: "With all faults, if any, and with no money owing"

If you have all sellers you buy a car off write this on the receipt and have them sign it, does it then make it a legal matter since its false advertisement?

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Yeah right makes sense, guy knowingly swaps car with finance owing, its a civil matter no crime committed.

The person sells it on and has committed a crime...OK

Finance company does not own the car. The op has no agreement with finance company, and swapped it in good faith, finance company can reposes only if the the person defaults on the loan, even that is not straight forward. THEY DO NOT OWN IT!

Well just because you don't understand basic contract and criminal law does not mean you are right.

If the car is financed the finance company takes possession of the car no matter who has it when the payments stop coming in, has always been like that.

If it was that easy everyone would just buy a car on finance and then stop making payments or sell the car on.

What you are missing and not understanding that the original owner has done the wrong thing swapping the car, so the finance company can chase him, and the new owner can chase him, but police can't as no crime has been committed, simply a breach of contract which needs to be followed up with civil action.

But the new owner decided not to exercise his legal right to civilly pursue the original owners, so instead he knowingly sold the car which legally does not belong to him to a third party. No one knows if the original owner plans to default on the loan, if he keeps paying the loan then there is no problem and the second owner has now done himself out of money, if original owner defaults second owner has committed a crime, either way he made some very bad and stupid decisions.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by XG_Falcon

I think you'll find the creditor does in fact own the car. It always surprises me that most people either don't know this simple fact or don't want to know.

I'm no lawyer they may legally own it but they are not on the rago papers.

In property there is a title deed in which the bank is an interested party. A car has no title deed.

So rego can be transferred and the car can be owned by someone not knowing there is an encumbrance on the vehicle. It can be sold with the encumbrance on the vehicle.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

Well just because you don't understand basic contract and criminal law does not mean you are right.

If the car is financed the finance company takes possession of the car no matter who has it when the payments stop coming in, has always been like that.

If it was that easy everyone would just buy a car on finance and then stop making payments or sell the car on.

What you are missing and not understanding that the original owner has done the wrong thing swapping the car, so the finance company can chase him, and the new owner can chase him, but police can't as no crime has been committed, simply a breach of contract which needs to be followed up with civil action.

But the new owner decided not to exercise his legal right to civilly pursue the original owners, so instead he knowingly sold the car which legally does not belong to him to a third party. No one knows if the original owner plans to default on the loan, if he keeps paying the loan then there is no problem and the second owner has now done himself out of money, if original owner defaults second owner has committed a crime, either way he made some very bad and stupid decisions.

There is no crime selling or buying a car with encumbrance on it as long as the loan is being serviced by the person who took it out, if that person faults on that loan all it means the loan company has right of repossession to the car regardless who has it registered in their name.

This why you have vehicle checks to protect yourself in these situations.

Please do understand the Law before making misinformed comments.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by trublu

There is no crime selling or buying a car with encumbrance on it as long as the loan is being serviced by the person who took it out, if that person faults on that loan all it means the loan company has right of repossession to the car regardless who has it registered in their name.

This why you have vehicle checks to protect yourself in these situations.

Please do understand the Law before making misinformed comments.

Exactly what I said...

And the loan may have been disclosed to the final buyer...so not even immoral

[mtbkym01]

Just shows how stuffed law is, first guy sells a car that he knows doesn't belong to him, not a criminal matter, 2nd guy does the same, is a criminal matter??? Wait.....What??, that can't be right

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Exactly what I said...

And the loan may have been disclosed to the final buyer...so not even immoral

It may or may not have disclosed it, who knows??

But you can't sell something you don't have a legal right to, simple as that.

Originally Posted by trublu

There is no crime selling or buying a car with encumbrance on it as long as the loan is being serviced by the person who took it out, if that person faults on that loan all it means the loan company has right of repossession to the car regardless who has it registered in their name.

This why you have vehicle checks to protect yourself in these situations.

Re read what I wrote, I basically said exactly what you just said

No problem as long as the original owner keeps paying the loan (even though he has still breached his contact with the finance company as he can't sell an encumbered vehicle), so if original owner keeps paying the OP has just done himself out of a XR6 for $1200. As eventually the loan would be payed off and he would then own the vehicle unencumbered.

If the original owner stops making payments the finance company will start looking for the car.

Originally Posted by trublu

Please do understand the Law before making misinformed comments.

No mis informed comments, I have studies both Civil Law and Contract Law for two years full time and a further two years part time and have the associated Diplomas to go with it and I have also spend a further 3 years Studying Criminal Law and have the Associate Degree hanging on my study wall.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by Stefan

I'm no lawyer they may legally own it but they are not on the rago papers.

In property there is a title deed in which the bank is an interested party. A car has no title deed.

So rego can be transferred and the car can be owned by someone not knowing there is an encumbrance on the vehicle. It can be sold with the encumbrance on the vehicle.

This might explain it for you.

http://www.aussielegal.com.au/forum/...onsorStateID=1

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

This might explain it for you.

http://www.aussielegal.com.au/forum/...onsorStateID=1

Did you read it? No mention of a crime

And I generally don't use forums as legal reference...might be some bored 15 year old posting

Almost as bad as this thread.

You accused the op of commiting a crime, now you're flip flopping around arguing as you are called out on posting misinformation.