Mercedes, Jaguar switching to L6, Ford doing opposite

[XG_Falcon]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Actually the I6 is quite capable of going Euro 5, with and without DI. It had been done and proven, but did require further dollars to get it into production. But never had the opportunity to happen. If Falcon did continue it would have been done.

I never said it wasn't possible, only that it would take a big investment - which isn't going to happen.

Taking ideas and putting them into production is always the expensive part.

[Express]

Euro 5 is still too far behind to be classed as an international engine, it needs to be Euro 6 now.

The Australian government has always been too soft on the local manufacturers as far as emissions are concerned and that why their engine development programs didn’t keep pace with the other major players.

It’s all academic now but in 2011 at the urging of the local industry the Aussie government postponed the 2012 rollout of Euro 5 and the 2016 introduction of Euro 6 to 2016 for full Euro 5 and 2018 for full Euro 6.

For much of Australia’s contemporaries Euro 6 began being rolled out in 2014 and will be completed in September 2015.

Other manufacturers are forced by their governments to update engines or introduce new ones so as to keep pace with the ever evolving emissions standards, the Aussies were let off and fell behind..

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Eaturbo

I reckon the i6 would be cheaper to build than the v6 as well. 2 cam shafts not 4, only one timing chain or belt not two. One single head casting not 2, more simple exhaust manifold and no need for a crossover. I could be wrong but this would have to mean cheaper build cost

Nahhh...

one timing belt on a V6, (all depends on the valve technology)
one head casting, both heads usually identical,
no need for a crossover exhaust manifold,
smaller length crankshaft, smaller rotating mass.



instead of saying Ford is behind Mercedes and Jaguar it just might be that they are well ahead.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by zilo

instead of saying Ford is behind Mercedes and Jaguar it just might be that they are well ahead.

Well ahead in building cars to a (cheaper) price to increase their own profits at the direct expense of driver enjoyment? Yeah, maybe, probably.

[Express]

Audi readying to drop V8s


New V6 developed in conjunction with Porsche to power Audi performance models.

Toby Hagon
August 5 2015


Audi is looking to replace its current V8 - which is used in the RS4 - with a turbocharged V6.

Audi is developing a new turbocharged V6 engine to be used in a range of models, including some high performance RS variants.

The new engine, referred to internally as Kovomo, is expected to be used in a more affordable version of the second generation R8 supercar, which arrives in Australia in the second quarter of 2016 - initially only with V10 engines.

The new V6 engine is also likely to feature in upcoming high performance RS models, including possibly the RS4. The RS4 and V8-powered R8 previously shared the same non-turbo V8.

"We are planning another engine (for the R8)," said the man in charge of marketing for the R8, Stevan Holischka, confirming the new R8 would not get an eight-cylinder option.

The new V6 engine will get turbochargers for extra pull, especially in the low- to mid-rev range. It's not known whether the engine will use an electric turbocharger; Audi is developing an electric turbo that will work in unison with a traditional exhaust-driven turbo with the aim of reducing lag and improving driveability and performance. The electric turbo is expected to debut on a diesel engine.

The new generation V6 petrol engine is also being developed in conjunction with Porsche for use in some of its models.

http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/a...05-giruok.html

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by Express

http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/a...05-giruok.html

Tabloid sensationalist headline ?
In reality They are dropping a V8 in entry level version and replacing it with a V6.
The real R8 is still V10 standard :-) .

[Express]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

Tabloid sensationalist headline ?
In reality They are dropping a V8 in entry level version and replacing it with a V6.
The real R8 is still V10 standard :-) .

Yeah agreed, 'click bait' journalism.

I posted the article to throw another manufacturer into the mix of the I6 versus V6 debate.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Well ahead in building cars to a (cheaper) price to increase their own profits at the direct expense of driver enjoyment? Yeah, maybe, probably.

A driver enjoys a straight 6 more than a V6?

I find that comment quite silly .

[SensationFG8]

Originally Posted by zilo

A driver enjoys a straight 6 more than a V6?

I find that comment quite silly .

That's a bit harsh, the BMW m3 i6 was widely regarded as a great drivers engine. Many were upset when other power plants made it into that car.

Of course there are some nice v6 engines too, but I can't think of too many that get the same praise as some of the i6's throughout motoring history.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by zilo

A driver enjoys a straight 6 more than a V6?

I find that comment quite silly .

Toyota certainly went backwards from the bulletproof 2JZ to the weak 2GR..

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by zilo

A driver enjoys a straight 6 more than a V6?

I find that comment quite silly .

Quite silly hey? So to take it further it must not matter what engine is under the hood at all. 3 cylinders, 4, 6, 8, 12... doesn't matter to the driver. Inline, V, boxer? Configuration obviously doesn't matter either, just silly to even think about it really. Right?

The inline 6 is an inherently superior configuration compared to the V6. Compare the Holden V6 to the Ford I6 - which do you think the driver would enjoy more, all other things being equal?

[Cav]

I have two cars with the Ford six.

They last forever and be quite economical on a trip.

I didn't realise the size until I saw the pic alongside the Windsor V8 though

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

What I'd really like to see is a very thorough comparison, either by an American publication (MT, Jalopnik, R&T) or one of ours- between the 3.5 Ecoboost and Duratecs versus our straight sixes, sometime before the latter dies.

It's a very long shot but if the straight six had better fundamental qualities (noise, idle, moving parts); and the data showed it would could be less costly to make it a class leader then perhaps Dearborn could take the dies somewhere and continue its development instead of the larger V6.

It just seems ironic that the engine with the superior layout dies , while Jaguar and Merc see the error of their ways and are switching back.
Just a thought, maybe we could start a petition for the comparo- it would get noticed and, while a long shot, stranger things have happened.

I believe most of the best 6 cylinders in the world up until now (engineering/performance wise) have been straight sixes, that can't be a coincidence. They are being phased out because they don't suit the agenda of the worlds largest economy so they have to go.

If the us was the dominant driver of straight sixes then it would be the v6 getting phased out. Global politics is usually the reason for everything.

Personally either 2jz, I6, RB or M series and you can keep your v8s and 4 bangers.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Quite silly hey? So to take it further it must not matter what engine is under the hood at all. 3 cylinders, 4, 6, 8, 12... doesn't matter to the driver. Inline, V, boxer? Configuration obviously doesn't matter either, just silly to even think about it really. Right?

The inline 6 is an inherently superior configuration compared to the V6. Compare the Holden V6 to the Ford I6 - which do you think the driver would enjoy more, all other things being equal?

So now the I6 in the Falcon is the best engine ever made?

Sure whatever you say....it's a Ford forum after all.

[CobraJet351]

The new Ford GT supercar is a V6. As is the F100. As long as it does the job I don't think the average consumer cares.

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

If the us was the dominant driver of straight sixes then it would be the v6 getting phased out. Global politics is usually the reason for everything.
.

It has nothing to do with global politics, it's packaging at the root. a V6 is simply a more compact design so therefore more versatile, easily adaptable to FWD/AWD and RWD layouts and the same engine can potentially be used in different size vehicles.

Naturally, it makes sense for manufacturers to develop/build a component that has many applications, it ultimately saves them money, allowing them to compete in there chosen marketing segments.

Ford does not compete in BMW's marketing segment, they are chiefly knocking out family cars just like Toyota, BMW promote their cars as 'Ultimate Driving Machines' so are targeting a niche marketing segment.

In Fords case, their 'driving machines' are the Fiesta ST, Focus ST, Mustang, the only V6 in this line up is the Mustang in the US which is really aimed at the buyer who wants a sporty looking car but not the driving experience (and I believe this is in fact the volume seller which sustains the Mustang line).

[b0son]

Originally Posted by XG_Falcon

The Barra I6 could possibly have found a place in the niche euro luxury car market, however BMW already builds the best straight six engines any way so why bother competing in a contest you'll never win?

Exactly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwrS2mQ5lV8

The Barra couldn't even do that at idle, let alone revving. Luxo owners have pretty high expectations, and the Barra is never going to please such customers.

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by Kieron

It has nothing to do with global politics, it's packaging at the root. a V6 is simply a more compact design so therefore more versatile, easily adaptable to FWD/AWD and RWD layouts and the same engine can potentially be used in different size vehicles.

Naturally, it makes sense for manufacturers to develop/build a component that has many applications, it ultimately saves them money, allowing them to compete in there chosen marketing segments.

Ford does not compete in BMW's marketing segment, they are chiefly knocking out family cars just like Toyota, BMW promote their cars as 'Ultimate Driving Machines' so are targeting a niche marketing segment.

In Fords case, their 'driving machines' are the Fiesta ST, Focus ST, Mustang, the only V6 in this line up is the Mustang in the US which is really aimed at the buyer who wants a sporty looking car but not the driving experience (and I believe this is in fact the volume seller which sustains the Mustang line).

If that logic were true then everything should be a 4 cylinder as they fit even better. It's nothing more then a long ingrained market advantage that is beyond questioning. Not just the car industry but any industry.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Kieron

Forget an FWD I6, how about a FWD I8 -
http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...-drive-program

Ford Australia mucked about with the T Drive concept back in the EA days, there was a drivetrain pic floating around of the EA I6 in a 'T config' too, stuffed if I could find it though :(

T drive Engine, sounds problematic, perhaps that could be why it never took off..

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by b0son

Exactly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwrS2mQ5lV8

The Barra couldn't even do that at idle, let alone revving. Luxo owners have pretty high expectations, and the Barra is never going to please such customers.

It still idles at a very low speed, and has a very pleasant note, smooth revving. Even non enthusiasts will notice the engine seems smoother when comparing at a test drive. It would not take much development at all to get it on par with the BMW six. Magnesium block notwithstanding, I have driven both and I prefer the torquey nature of the Ford unit. If only there was a way to combine the two...

They won't be able to put their finger on why, but they'd feel the difference. I used to be able to balance a coin vertically on an idling Barra when I sold Fords, and I swear I sold a couple on that little trick alone.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by zilo

So now the I6 in the Falcon is the best engine ever made?

Sure whatever you say....it's a Ford forum after all.

Ummm you've lost me now mate. Obviously I said nothing of the sort.

The Ford I6 is better than the Holden V6 is all I suggested, but then again so is pretty much anything...

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Ummm you've lost me now mate. Obviously I said nothing of the sort.

The Ford I6 is better than the Holden V6 is all I suggested, but then again so is pretty much anything...

don't ever underestimate the power of a mang

mang mang

mang

[zilo]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Ummm you've lost me now mate. Obviously I said nothing of the sort.

The Ford I6 is better than the Holden V6 is all I suggested, but then again so is pretty much anything...

"The inline 6 is an inherently superior configuration compared to the V6.""...is what you wrote.

If you are saying that an ford inline 6 is better than a specific holden V6 then I'll take your word for it.

But it's a gross generalisation otherwise.

[superyob]

Give me an inline x-flow six any day. The V6 is a trans gender engine, it has two important items missing...

[Express]

Originally Posted by CobraJet351

The new Ford GT supercar is a V6. As is the F100. As long as it does the job I don't think the average consumer cares.

I think I overheard or read somewhere this thing isn’t too bad either with many a happy owner.

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

If that logic were true then everything should be a 4 cylinder as they fit even better. It's nothing more then a long ingrained market advantage that is beyond questioning. Not just the car industry but any industry.

Potentiall yes it may BUT a V6 is a middle ground engine suitable for medium to large cars as well as SUV's commercials etc. My logic is quite sound...

It has absolutely nothing to do with politics or some ill defined ingrained marketing advantage. USA never bothered with V6's too much until the 70's energy chrisis, their cars where large RWD's that simply didn't have to worry about packaging. The traditionally small car market in Europe certainly did though, Ford introduced the Essex V4/V6 in the 60's for instance, used on the Zephyr/Zodiac, Capri and Transit.

The USA didn't bother with FWD or packaging until much later than the rest of the world so therefore an i6 was fine, again Europe lead the way.

The USA also didn't bother doing what the Japanese manufacturers did by having one car fleet marketed across the world, Mullalys "One Ford" push got the first of the US big three in line.

Therefore, the US manufacturers were in fact following others.

[zilo]

^^^^Funny i thought before the energy crisis most US cars were V8's.

In any event why would anyone drive a slow aussie straight 6 when they can have a much faster V6?

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by zilo

^^^^Funny i thought before the energy crisis most US cars were V8's.

Why is it funny? its quite simple. Americans were floating around in large V8's in the 60's/early 70's. The energy crisis hit in 74 (IIRC) and the big 3 USA manufacturers suddenly had to scramble for smaller engines to power there large gas guzzling sedans. Ford USA used the European Ford V6 and Buick I think resurrected their V6.

In any event why would anyone drive a slow aussie straight 6 when they can have a much faster V6?

What has this got to do with anything?
i'm simply saying medium to large + commercial vehicles require a largish capacity engine, FWD is now the preferred drive layout and the V6 config is able to sit in all these engine bays hence it's rise over the I6 in none 'driver enthusiast' cars.

A large capacity turbo 4 may well fit the bill too and that's what Ford are doing with the Ecoboost range.


FYI, I love the Ford I6, and in turbo form is a killer, better than my FG's XR8 engine. Love Chryslers Hemi I6 and the same goes for BMW's I6 M3, a car I back to back drove with my mates Porsche Cayman S a few years back, we both walked away thinking the M3 was the best engine, both aurally and in the way it simply hammered.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by zilo

"The inline 6 is an inherently superior configuration compared to the V6.""...is what you wrote.

If you are saying that an ford inline 6 is better than a specific holden V6 then I'll take your word for it.

But it's a gross generalisation otherwise.

Yep that's what I wrote, and from that you figured I was claiming the local Ford I6 to be the best engine in the world.

You're either bored and trying to pick an argument, or you're not intelligent enough to manage basic comprehension.

Either way, I'll leave you to it.

[SumoDog68]

It is never simple but in general most mainstream manufacturers have moved away from inline sixes. Main reasons are packaging , cost of production and flexibility of layouts.
That's not to say that inline six is not a great engine configuration - inherently balanced and easily up scaled to large truck engines . Torque is its strong suit - generally long stroke and don't rev as easily as some others .
Some of the best engines in the past have been inline sixes - BMW made their name with them , Toyota and Nissan in both road and off-road cars even Jeeps best engine is the inline 6.
These days they are replaced by nondescript boosted 4s that can be packaged in any driveline configuration and relatively cheap to make .
Some manufacturers stick with unusual layouts ( Porsche , Subaru ) but most follow common themes . Current fashion is small and turbo.