Audi shifts away from dual clutch transmissions

[mik]

Originally Posted by v8snerlo

I'm sure repairs on any gearbox isn't cheap. VW made the mistake of going to the dry clutch seven speeds as opposed to the wet clutches in the six speeders which were a lot more reliable. Granted, they take a little getting used to driving as they are essentially a robotised manual gearbox. I can speak personally about this as my two cars have a dsg and a conventional torque converter. If I am honest, the dsg in my R36 s**ts all over the tranny in the territory. I'm sure that if ford had kept the proper zf for the diesels then it might be a little closer but for smoothness in normal driving, the dsg wins hands down in my situation. As for reliability, depends on how astute the owner is on maintenance. Ford failed with their dsg but don't be quick to tar all dsg's based on one brand. My dad has an 8 speeder torque converter in his Q7 and it is a great smooth gearbox. They handle the power of modern cars brilliantly and are very smooth at doing it. Everyone will have a differing opinion maybe to what I have experienced but this is just my opinion. I'm not against one gearbox as opposed to the other and I welcome torque converters back, especially with the modern ones with a thousand gears! ��

i get what your saying with the driving experience , and it great your dad has had a good experience with his limo , but im thinking the over all experience as time goes on , reliability ,repairs , cost etc ..

i suspect that most territory cog swappers will ........barring dodgey build quality or poorly maintained ed ones will still be running nicely in ten years time with just general maintenance .

its probably a bit unfair to compare the old technology , but looking at my stoneage AU which has done 240,000 kliks of varied driving from being a tow vehicle to driven like grandpa , to chirping it into second gear when a bit of youthful exuberance shows it head on the odd occasion.
i look back on the nearly 11 years ive had this old banger for , and the only thing the auto has had , is an extension housing seal , an auto cooler when i first bought it , servicing by yours truly until last couple of years until old age health started dwindling a bit, and a line pressure adjustment during a service about two years ago by my new auto servicing fella.
i might add the auto still sounds good and works well , it will probably out last the car i think .
This to me is the big picture,
yes the old torque converter auto may not quite have the driveability of the newer ones , but simplicity , reliability, ease of maintenance , cost of maintenance ,general owner satisfaction , it is pretty hard to beat imo , and you dont need a workshop computer to re calibrate everything after doing maintenance ,it just works .

[mik]

Originally Posted by csv8

Surely, the faults with the DSG would have been picked up in testing ???? Why put a car on the market with a suspect auto?? Audi, VW, Ford etc did it . Why??? doesnt make sense...

i suspect it wasnt picked up , because after the global financial crisis , bean counters would have cut back on everything ..... including longevity testing .

[Yellow_Festiva]

Interestingly enough, the below article claims that Audi itself introduced the technology to road cars in the 80's?

Dual-clutch gearbox - who was first?

The dual-clutch gearbox is now commonplace, you probably own one yourself, but which manufacturer was the first to introduce the technology?

A variety of names are used - DSG, PDK, DCT - but all work in a similar way. As the name suggests, there are two clutches, each connected to a shaft. One shaft connects to the even-numbered gears, the other to the odd.

The great advantage of the dual-clutch is that the next gear can be pre-selected and engine torque switched between the two clutches almost instantaneously, resulting in lightning fast shifts. It also avoids the power losses inherent in a traditional torque converter automatic.

The basic concept has been around since before World War II, the original idea credited to French engineer Adolphe Kegresse, but Porsche was the first to use the technology in its 956 endurance race car. Prototypes ran as early as 1983 but proved spectacularly unreliable and little faster than the conventional manual.

A couple of years later, in 1985, Audi developed a version for its fearsome S1 E2 rally car, which can be seen in the video above. According to Walter Rohrl, this allowed the E2 to complete 0-100km/h in 2.6sec and 0-400m in 10.8sec, at which point it would already be travelling close to its top speed of 227km/h.

Audi also won the race to put dual-clutch technology into a road car, a six-speed DSG appearing as an option for the TT 3.2 V6 in 2003, though VW can share the honour as the identically-engined Golf R32 arrived at the same time.

For a while, it appeared that the dual-clutch would spell the end of conventional automatics, however the tide now seems to be turning the other way, with Audi, oddly enough, switching back in the likes of the Audi RS6 and new Audi S4.

http://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/ne...id=mailsignout

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by Revolver

I don't understand the fascination of car manufacturers to increase the amount of gears supplied. Why does anyone need 8 gears? Sure the Veyron has 7 but 7th is for the high speed run to 400kmh & beyond.... You won't be doing that in a golf. Or Audi.

I remember Jeromy Clarkson tested a convertible Cadillac that had a 7 speed slush box and he hated it. Because "Your toenail has to grow a thousandth of an inch and the gearbox changes either up, or down, and your don't know which one. *looks down at console of car* "STOP IT! Just be a gearbox!!!!"

And that competely makes sense because the more you increase the amount of grears, the closer the ratios and each speed would need a certain optimum gear. All those gear changes would sheet me to tears.

In reality 6 is the most you need. If a V8 Supercar can do 300kmh with a 6 speed, a road car can by far live with 6 as well.

I agree with this and sometimes wonder why I have 6 speeds.

I live in the country and 99% of my driving is done at 120-130k's.
When I'm in the city I find the thing a right pain, constantly changing. Now I use manual mode and don't let it go over 4th. The 5.0 s/c will chug at ~1000rpm otherwise.
With all these extra gears comes extra cost, imagine milkshaking a 10 speed, the cost of repair would nearly get you a new car.
I was more than happy with the old BTR. Pretty much bulletproof and cheap to repair.

Maybe I'm just showing my age...idk

[Stefan]

My Audi had 150k on the odo and the DSG was great, I liked the directness of it.

Cost of repair would be high if it died not much different to a zf in an xr6.

Sign of the times car have become more disposable I guess.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by mik

i get what your saying with the driving experience , and it great your dad has had a good experience with his limo , but im thinking the over all experience as time goes on , reliability ,repairs , cost etc ..

i suspect that most territory cog swappers will ........barring dodgey build quality or poorly maintained ed ones will still be running nicely in ten years time with just general maintenance .

Mik our one is now 9 years and 236Km and the 6 speed ZF is exactly as you described, smooth, reliable - sharp shifts, good performance mode. It's the early AWD one that is the proper ZF not the licenced version, and has had fluid replaced twice. I remember the fluid being described as 'sealed for life of gearbox' (disposable mentality?) but my mechanic reckons otherwise and the gearbox enjoyed the fluid swaps. I've asked about the 'milkshaking' and so far no symptoms, including lots of towing early in the vehicle's life. Other stuff may bust or need re-bushing, but the drivetrain will keep going a long while.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Revolver

I don't understand the fascination of car manufacturers to increase the amount of gears supplied. Why does anyone need 8 gears? Sure the Veyron has 7 but 7th is for the high speed run to 400kmh & beyond.... You won't be doing that in a golf. Or Audi.

I remember Jeromy Clarkson tested a convertible Cadillac that had a 7 speed slush box and he hated it. Because "Your toenail has to grow a thousandth of an inch and the gearbox changes either up, or down, and your don't know which one. *looks down at console of car* "STOP IT! Just be a gearbox!!!!"

And that competely makes sense because the more you increase the amount of grears, the closer the ratios and each speed would need a certain optimum gear. All those gear changes would sheet me to tears.

In reality 6 is the most you need. If a V8 Supercar can do 300kmh with a 6 speed, a road car can by far live with 6 as well.

The crazy part, is that back in the day when engines produced their max power around 3,000rpm, and ran out of puff at 4,000, we could have done with more than two gears. Now days, I think we're heading into ridiculous territory, particularly with large powerful engines.
It's like shavers. Yes, twin blades are better, and triples a bit better still (although harder to clean) but do we really need 5 blades?

[Express]

For those that say they don’t like 6 and 7 speed autos because they are constantly changing in traffic I got to say I don’t even notice mine.

It says more about the quality to me than anything else as a good box should seamlessly know where it needs to be then become more animalistic when placed into sports mode by firming up and holding the gears to the limiter when under acceleration and rev matching as it works its way back down.

A had a V8 Calais a couple of years back and it’s was OEM rubbish, absolute vile as it hunted gears all over the place but I was amazed at the transformation when I had it tuned.

Good software is the key.

[IanC]

Originally Posted by Revolver

I don't understand the fascination of car manufacturers to increase the amount of gears supplied. Why does anyone need 8 gears?

Drivers don't need umpteen gears. The extra gears are for the fuel consumption test which is totally artificial and nothing to do with real driving. Extra gears make the fuel consumption look good on the test and that can be used in advertising. Real world driving is unlikely to get anything like those test figures.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by Express

For those that say they don’t like 6 and 7 speed autos because they are constantly changing in traffic I got to say I don’t even notice mine.

It says more about the quality to me than anything else as a good box should seamlessly know where it needs to be then become more animalistic when placed into sports mode by firming up and holding the gears to the limiter when under acceleration and rev matching as it works its way back down.

A had a V8 Calais a couple of years back and it’s was OEM rubbish, absolute vile as it hunted gears all over the place but I was amazed at the transformation when I had it tuned.

Good software is the key.

Mine doesn't hunt so much with the Miami engine but it definitely gets itself into a gear far too tall for the road speed. The Miami has so much torque that it tries to run around at 1000-1200 rpm. It's sweet spot for economy is up around 16-1800 rpm, hence why I lock it into 4th.
That and the tendency for the ZF to lockup in every gear makes it painful.

It might be that all the country driving has made it behave that way over time.
Still painful though.

Agree on the software.

[XWGT]

I have a DSG in a 500nm Audi. Its brilliant. Lightning fast changes.
However I am under no illusion that they are infallible. I was burnt with the Audi CVT and would never own any form of CVT again.
If they move to ZF I can only assume its for reduced cost and increased reliability as I cannot see it being faster to change than the DSG.

[383hq]

Originally Posted by XWGT

I have a DSG in a 500nm Audi. Its brilliant. Lightning fast changes.
However I am under no illusion that they are infallible. I was burnt with the Audi CVT and would never own any form of CVT again.
If they move to ZF I can only assume its for reduced cost and increased reliability as I cannot see it being faster to change than the DSG.

GM are publicly boosting their new 10 spd box a "normal auto" is quicker then the porsche PDK - and the PDK is a quick box

but probably not all 10 speeds, just the first few ?

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/05/11/c...r-porsche-pdk/

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Well with 7,8 9 and 10 speed boxes here or on the way why don't they just all go to CVT's???

CVT is limited to 350nm, you wont find one in anything that has more than that.

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by 383hq

GM are publicly boosting their new 10 spd box a "normal auto" is quicker then the porsche PDK - and the PDK is a quick box

but probably not all 10 speeds, just the first few ?

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/05/11/c...r-porsche-pdk/

Also to note, Ford and GM went halves in the design of this box and it's sister a 9 speed auto.

Can't wait to see a 10 speed GT350R

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by XWGT

I have a DSG in a 500nm Audi. Its brilliant. Lightning fast changes.
However I am under no illusion that they are infallible. I was burnt with the Audi CVT and would never own any form of CVT again.
If they move to ZF I can only assume its for reduced cost and increased reliability as I cannot see it being faster to change than the DSG.

It might not change faster but it will be a damn sight smoother particularly in urban areas, the classic scenario being the approach to a roundabout, slow down, gear change hesitation as you release brake and apply throttle, sometimes nothing happens and your butt muscles tighten as that approachig vehicle on the right gets closer and closer....or the opposite happens and all power comes on abruptly and those inside snap their necks back with the sudden acceleration. Stop-start traffic smootheness and dsg's are mutually exclusive.

[Boza]

Oh well no more DSG farts from the local yahoo's with they're golf's and audi's I live near a major Melb uni and there's plenty of cashed up foreign student's with these things around here hooning like crazy and doing those annoying DSG fart's.
Lot's of families around here with young kid's that are sick of it.

[XWGT]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

It might not change faster but it will be a damn sight smoother particularly in urban areas, the classic scenario being the approach to a roundabout, slow down, gear change hesitation as you release brake and apply throttle, sometimes nothing happens and your butt muscles tighten as that approachig vehicle on the right gets closer and closer....or the opposite happens and all power comes on abruptly and those inside snap their necks back with the sudden acceleration. Stop-start traffic smootheness and dsg's are mutually exclusive.

Sorry I dont understand this
My DSG is perfectly smooth. Under full acceleration with 500nm if simply keeps feeding gears seamlessly and perfectly
In Sport mode is lightning quick and you can then feel the changes but in normal mode its like silk?

[Wretched]

Wonder if Porsche will keep using their PDK, which by all reports is pretty much spot on.
Unsure how they have been over the long term but if Porsche could get it right, why not Audi?

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

CVT is limited to 350nm, you wont find one in anything that has more than that.

Audi A6 has more.

If it is limited then they just need to make them stronger to handle more torque.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by XWGT

Sorry I dont understand this
My DSG is perfectly smooth. Under full acceleration with 500nm if simply keeps feeding gears seamlessly and perfectly
In Sport mode is lightning quick and you can then feel the changes but in normal mode its like silk?

See... as you described "full acceleration" is ONLY where a DSG is superior...my scenario is the stop start grind of most capital cities....

[DFB FGXR6]

I get the feeling many people who complain of a lack of smoothness in DSG's are coming from traditional torque converter auto's or even CVT's. They drive them in stop start traffic the same way they always have and in this respect DSG's will feel "shunty".

Dual Clutch gear boxes are NOT for this type of driver. They don't respond well to being "booted" from a set of traffic lights for example. They almost have to eased from rest like a manual which really defeats the purpose of choosing an auto.

One of the reasons a car buyer chooses an automatic gearbox in the first place is to have smooth gear changes with no effort on the drivers part.

[XWGT]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

See... as you described "full acceleration" is ONLY where a DSG is superior...my scenario is the stop start grind of most capital cities....

While I agree in part I think it just takes a little bit of getting used to.

Throttle control is the key to a DSG and you find yourself very quickly using it very smoothly in all traffic.

I really enjoy it and find it flexible when it needs to be or lazy when you want it to be

[Rodp]

Sold my R32 at around 75k because a few guys in the VW forum I was on had their DSG go at ~120k. Quoted cost of replacement? $22k.

Noped out of that car.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by XWGT

While I agree in part I think it just takes a little bit of getting used to.

Throttle control is the key to a DSG and you find yourself very quickly using it very smoothly in all traffic.

I really enjoy it and find it flexible when it needs to be or lazy when you want it to be

When you're regularly changing between different cars and the others have slushboxes it's just a pain in the backside. Cars should be standardised in some basic respects. Why should you have to "retrain" yourself every time you jump in a car with some left-field gearbox. It's simply no good for stop-start urban driving which is what most people do every day.