Labor's Pitch to save Mechanic Industry

[Maka]

I'm sure this link about oem's attempting to protect their ip in the US has been posted on AFF in the past, nice background reading for this thread imo -

https://www.autoblog.com/2015/04/20/...s-car-repairs/

"In comments filed with a federal agency that will determine whether tinkering with a car constitutes a copyright violation, OEMs and their main lobbying organization say cars have become too complex and dangerous for consumers and third parties to handle.

Allowing them to continue to fix their cars has become "legally problematic," according to a written statement from the Auto Alliance, the main lobbying arm of automakers.

The dispute arises from a section of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act that no one thought could apply to vehicles when it was signed into law in 1998. But now, in an era where cars are rolling computing platforms, the U.S. Copyright Office is examining whether provisions of the law that protect intellectual property should prohibit people from modifying and tuning their cars."

And for Mecury Bullet -

"Comments from equipment manufacturer John Deere took a more condescending tone toward independent and amateur mechanics, noting that circumventing protected technology should be "against public policy because individual vehicle owners do not have the technological resources to provide safe, reliable and lawful software for repair, diagnosis or some dubious 'aftermarket personalization, modification or other improvement' that is not directed toward repair or diagnosis of the vehicle."

And this from the op's link -

"The modern motor vehicle is basically just a computer on wheels," the association's executive director Stuart Charity said.

"Everyday simple things like changing a tyre ... checking the oil level and what have you is all now computerised and the car companies are controlling the computer gateway into and out of the vehicle and how you communicate with that vehicle and at the moment, they're shutting independent local mechanics out."

cheers, Maka

[smoo]

I don't really get what the issue is. Are these pollies wanting old mate working out the back of the BP in Cooma to be able to diagnose and repair the latest Ranger Rover or Mercedes S Class?
There are independent workshops which specialise in different makes for out of warranty work. There are also a range of diagnosis tools and software which are compatible with all makes and models. Is it not up to each outfit to adapt to or keep in line with new tech?

[happy1]

Wife's near new BMW X1 is going in for service by an independent workshop tomorrow.
It's a 'computer on wheels' and it even has built in electronic logbook.
The independent workshop specialise in BMWs and have the latest diagnostic tools, and will log in to the BMW database in Germany to officially amend to the service record in the database, and in the car's electronic modules.
It will show up as serviced by a non-dealer, and this this will be visible for the local BMW dealer here in Australia also next time they look at this vehicle's history.

The independent workshop charges approx. $500 for the service, which is near half of the dealer would charge. 1/3rd of that is oil & filters etc. I guess some of the servicing cost goes towards paying for tools and keeping up with latest technology.

No I don't think Mr. Shorten has a good policy by suggesting every mobile mechanic or tune-up workshop should be able to service any make and model of cars, and I agree with SMOO above.

Cheers,

[Maka]

My understanding is Bill Shorten is trying to protect the independent workshops that specialize in working on your Euro car etc, charging less $$$ & also keeping people in employment.

He wants to make sure independent workshops has continued access to whatever latest online oem data etc they need so the independent can continue servicing cars at a cheaper rate than the dealer.

The independents rates are cheaper because their business costs are less than the dealers & they pass the savings on to you the customer no matter the make & model.

cheers, Maka

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by five 7

VTNZ is run by Govt, But Wof (Warrant of fitness) is also given by private approved workshops that also do mechanical repairs. Lenght of Wof can be from 6 months to 3 years depending on first registration of car. Info can be found at NZ transport Agency...

Yes I know, but you'd be a fool to use a private one, unless you know them personally.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by smoo

I don't really get what the issue is. Are these pollies wanting old mate working out the back of the BP in Cooma to be able to diagnose and repair the latest Ranger Rover or Mercedes S Class?
There are independent workshops which specialise in different makes for out of warranty work. There are also a range of diagnosis tools and software which are compatible with all makes and models. Is it not up to each outfit to adapt to or keep in line with new tech?

True, there are a range of diagnostic units that are compatible.

But they are not totally compatible, there are some things that only the manufacturer's laptop's/tools can see (and fix) that aren't available to independent's.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by smoo

I don't really get what the issue is. Are these pollies wanting old mate working out the back of the BP in Cooma to be able to diagnose and repair the latest Ranger Rover or Mercedes S Class?
There are independent workshops which specialise in different makes for out of warranty work. There are also a range of diagnosis tools and software which are compatible with all makes and models. Is it not up to each outfit to adapt to or keep in line with new tech?

Ultimately what the companies want to do is take your job and make you re-apply with every other mechanic in oz to work with them.

They don't want clever people out there working on machinery for less than they charge.

Oh and you won't be a mechanic anymore, your new title shall be technician, with commensurate wage decrease.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

True, there are a range of diagnostic units that are compatible.

But they are not totally compatible, there are some things that only the manufacturer's laptop's/tools can see (and fix) that aren't available to independent's.

Yeah, but the bulk of the work going thru an independent workshop wouldn’t require the car needing to go to the dealer(?). Independent Euro workshops where I am are flat out.

I have a MB Star diagnosis software and laptop coming from the states for $1300 aud which is said to be able to scan/read and programme all models from 1991-present. Going off what guys on benzworld.org have said it’s the best money an MB owner can spend.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Yes I know, but you'd be a fool to use a private one, unless you know them personally.

Not really. VTNZ staff are failed mechanics a lot of them with a chip on their shoulder who are unreasonable and unrealistic about what is actually buggered. Someone with not a lot of money with an old car from the 1990s wouldn’t want to go there as they’d defect it so much it wouldn’t be worth repairing leaving them between a rock and a hard place.

[Mercury Bullet]

This is about Mercedes Benz cutting off your access to that laptop.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by smoo

Not really. VTNZ staff are failed mechanics a lot of them with a chip on their shoulder who are unreasonable and unrealistic about what is actually buggered. Someone with not a lot of money with an old car from the 1990s wouldn’t want to go there as they’d defect it so much it wouldn’t be worth repairing leaving them between a rock and a hard place.

I haven't lived in NZ for a few years now, but I was there when testing stations were introduced.
The general consensus was the opposite of what you are saying.
a 25 year old car from the 1990's that doesn't belong to an enthusiast should expect defects, to be getting a pass at an independent sounds a bit sus to me.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by smoo

Yeah, but the bulk of the work going thru an independent workshop wouldn’t require the car needing to go to the dealer(?). Independent Euro workshops where I am are flat out.

I have a MB Star diagnosis software and laptop coming from the states for $1300 aud which is said to be able to scan/read and programme all models from 1991-present. Going off what guys on benzworld.org have said it’s the best money an MB owner can spend.

Thats awful cheap, the Star cost the local indie here about $5k and about $1200 each year for updates.

When you get yours can you fix my clock? I replaced the original Blaupunkt with an Alpine not knowing that it was the head unit that you have to adjust the clock with.
You need the Star to tell it change the adjusting method from the head unit to the dash

[Vesper Martini]

FWIW you can buy MB Star on ebay for around $800 from china..

I guess that's a bit much for Fix Gasolanes clock..

[smoo]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Thats awful cheap, the Star cost the local indie here about $5k and about $1200 each year for updates.

When you get yours can you fix my clock? I replaced the original Blaupunkt with an Alpine not knowing that it was the head unit that you have to adjust the clock with.
You need the Star to tell it change the adjusting method from the head unit to the dash

She’s a pirated version that will do most of what will need to be done to keep them on the road, key coding etc. sellers on eBay out of the UK and US offer annual updates though.

What model Benz? Should only cost a standard scan fee for an Indy to do it?!

Mercury Bullet, but are Mercedes and the rest going to do that? We paid about $7k plus annual fees for a new Panasonic Toughbook OEM datalink adapter and software thru Volvo Mack Australia to carry out nearly everything that needs to be done on the fleet.
Same with the Cummins Insite around $2k pa in fees but the basic insite will do everything we need or a contractor needs. We run pirated version of insite and calterm to change tunes and parameters and there’s nothing cummins can do about it.

[Vesper Martini]

In post 32 you don't get what the issue is.

Now you reveal your using Pirated software to bypass Cummins....
and are also paying $7K+ to get Volvo Mack.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Full on as always Daz,

What were taking about is making these resources available at a reasonable cost. no theft.

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

I didn't know tightening an alternator belt was illegal ip theft.

Nothing to stop 3rd parties working on cars,
except obviously, and particularly with modern electronics, they lack the access to data and proprietary software that the OEM have.

Firstly, I seriously question why they should be compelled to hand over this information? It is the very definition of IP, and forcing a company to hand it over is theft.

And the bigger question, is how on earth you make this happen, and how you enforce it.
And where do you draw the line?
If after a few months of a new model, Ford comes up with a quicker way to replace the widget, are they obligated to immediately educate everyone in Australia??

And the problem is this. There are many hardworking and conscientious independent mechanics out there, but they are the least likely to benefit from this. What it would help is the parasites; the chains who claim to do "logbook servicing" but in fact charge a premium for nothing more than an oil change with substandard consumables.

[aussiblue]

Also see the ongoing debate https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11435571

[Davehoos]

The real story is that already in NSW mechanics now no longer have life time licence and government departments controlling this have to raise CASH in order to guarantee the public safety and other interested 3rd parties have to build up empires.

I keep being told this is latest industry standard and is being rolled out nationally. THIS HAS NOT COST ME PERSONALLY AS MY EMPLOYER HAS FOOTED THE BILL.

I have just been amalgamated as part of local government restructures and most of our visiting sales Reps tell us of how most are doing the same [flawed] methods. The other LGA that joint to us didn't have or require qualified mechanics or workshops as it wasn't required.

An over supply of university training and dropping union following will lead to all sorts of public statements. running up to the elections-state and federal.

Some local small workshops have grouped together to buy specialised equipment to keep open. Recently some have purchased imported tilt trays and make more profit. The workshop I get my pink slip [I cant do the general public] told me his biggest cost is stocking oil and types of oils. Most parts suppliers including OEM will stock parts on consignment.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

In post 32 you don't get what the issue is.

Now you reveal your using Pirated software to bypass Cummins....
and are also paying $7K+ to get Volvo Mack.

Local Volvo franchise charge $200 to hook the laptop up to a truck.
A private workshop will recoup the initial outlay for the laptop, software and annual fees while charging less than half that in no time. None of the pirated Volvo software we tried seemed to of worked.

But what I’m getting at is there are ways around it for one band band/private garages.So yeah, I don’t get what the issue is. Unless I’m reading it wrong it’s just a storm in a teacup. Is Shorten trying to gain votes by ‘sticking’ it to those evil corporations?

Re post 41. You’re correct but I think thats the reputation and misconception VTNZ have relied on since day one. May have been true back in the day. From my experience they are unrealistic when it comes to vehicle defects. By the book, too anal. Some people and families don’t have the financial ability to drive some thing more than a $1500 AU or Camry etc. so when they take it to VTNZ and the unreasonable inspector fails it on a cracked indicator lense, slightly frayed seatbelt, surface rust on steel brake lines, moisture (not leaking) at the ends of the steering rack, rust bubble at the door/windscreen rubber, to name a few, the repair bill stacks up and some people cant afford that sort of repair costs for something that isn’t really a safety issue. WOFs are good easy coin for private garages. $50 per check, which can be done in half hour. They don’t want to burn repeat customers.

[Davehoos]

The road worthy system in NSW works. In my working life it has been stuffed around with not for the better and the threat of having centralised inspections have been regularly Squashed by doing independent genuine random inspections and roadside testing.

Everyone knows of a dodgy provider and they do get run out of business if they fail genuine safety standards. Several have closed up in the last few years locally caught out by computer data matching.

I had a drama last year getting the land rover to pass the modern brake test as the local station cant do heavy vehicles.

My dealing with NZ WOF was based in south island [christchurch]. Found no difference to the what goes on locally. My last trip there it was a government push to reduce the cost of operating the money side of the system as the rest was working.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by smoo

Local Volvo franchise charge $200 to hook the laptop up to a truck.
A private workshop will recoup the initial outlay for the laptop, software and annual fees while charging less than half that in no time. None of the pirated Volvo software we tried seemed to of worked.

But what I’m getting at is there are ways around it for one band band/private garages.So yeah, I don’t get what the issue is. Unless I’m reading it wrong it’s just a storm in a teacup. Is Shorten trying to gain votes by ‘sticking’ it to those evil corporations?

Re post 41. You’re correct but I think thats the reputation and misconception VTNZ have relied on since day one. May have been true back in the day. From my experience they are unrealistic when it comes to vehicle defects. By the book, too anal. Some people and families don’t have the financial ability to drive some thing more than a $1500 AU or Camry etc. so when they take it to VTNZ and the unreasonable inspector fails it on a cracked indicator lense, slightly frayed seatbelt, surface rust on steel brake lines, moisture (not leaking) at the ends of the steering rack, rust bubble at the door/windscreen rubber, to name a few, the repair bill stacks up and some people cant afford that sort of repair costs for something that isn’t really a safety issue. WOFs are good easy coin for private garages. $50 per check, which can be done in half hour. They don’t want to burn repeat customers.

Ok, take the politics out, it's a non issue.

Look at agriculture where all this stuff is locked down.

We can no longer repair anything, there are no manuals anymore. A couple of manuals have been stuck on the web for our model. Great if you can read Lithuanian.

We had a tractor stuck in the shed with an inoperative pto, we couldn't find the problem so called in the local mechanic who said sorry nothing I can do. They are now computer controlled and independent mechanics have been locked out of any software/hardware diagnostics.
If we want it fixed it would have to be trucked to perth to their hq. Not an option for various reasons. These are big, wide machines.

Or pay an exorbitant fee to have them come on farm.

After hitting the old boys network, we finally came up with some ideas. Ended up being a slipping alternator belt, that's where the computer was getting it's engine speed from and it wasn't correlating with the ground radar.

Now that slipping belt was going to cost us many thousands of dollars if Case IH had their way, they can charge what they like as they have NO competition.

What these companies want to do is strip all access to their documentation and shut you down so they can enjoy a monopoly.

It HAS happened in agriculture and now they want to do it to you and after trucks they will start targeting cars.

Independents are more than happy to pay for the access but the manufacturers want their monopoly. I note the prices aren't coming down with their new found wealth.

Ideally we would sell and go to another manufacturer but they are now operating like a cartel.

When you have to say to every customer who walks into your shop "sorry I can't help" you won't have a job for long.

Currently it's not a problem for you, that's how we want to keep it.

I hope that helps.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

I didn't know tightening an alternator belt was illegal ip theft.

Then again, Case IH seem to think so.

Tesla is trying this **** too. so far, if you repair your own Tesla, Tesla corp won't honor the rest of the warranty or let your car use the supercharger stations. They are trying to get 3rd party repair made illegal, which sounds as moronic as you think.

[NeillNZ]

Originally Posted by smoo

Local Volvo franchise charge $200 to hook the laptop up to a truck.
A private workshop will recoup the initial outlay for the laptop, software and annual fees while charging less than half that in no time. None of the pirated Volvo software we tried seemed to of worked.

But what I’m getting at is there are ways around it for one band band/private garages.So yeah, I don’t get what the issue is. Unless I’m reading it wrong it’s just a storm in a teacup. Is Shorten trying to gain votes by ‘sticking’ it to those evil corporations?

Re post 41. You’re correct but I think thats the reputation and misconception VTNZ have relied on since day one. May have been true back in the day. From my experience they are unrealistic when it comes to vehicle defects. By the book, too anal. Some people and families don’t have the financial ability to drive some thing more than a $1500 AU or Camry etc. so when they take it to VTNZ and the unreasonable inspector fails it on a cracked indicator lense, slightly frayed seatbelt, surface rust on steel brake lines, moisture (not leaking) at the ends of the steering rack, rust bubble at the door/windscreen rubber, to name a few, the repair bill stacks up and some people cant afford that sort of repair costs for something that isn’t really a safety issue. WOFs are good easy coin for private garages. $50 per check, which can be done in half hour. They don’t want to burn repeat customers.

Going a bit off topic but as for VTNZ I do not go there. They do not road test your car. The one in Wellington city has a shaky table thing but it is inferior to actually driving the car. They failed to detect a defective shock absorber on my XC. It was so bad I could pull it in and out with minimal effort. They also failed my mates MB SLC(2 door) for the front seats not locking in position. They would not accept that that is how they are, they only lock when there is pressure in the pneumatic system. He had to come back on another day to get a different mechanical genius to sign it off.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Ok, take the politics out, it's a non issue.

Look at agriculture where all this stuff is locked down.

We can no longer repair anything, there are no manuals anymore. A couple of manuals have been stuck on the web for our model. Great if you can read Lithuanian.

We had a tractor stuck in the shed with an inoperative pto, we couldn't find the problem so called in the local mechanic who said sorry nothing I can do. They are now computer controlled and independent mechanics have been locked out of any software/hardware diagnostics.
If we want it fixed it would have to be trucked to perth to their hq. Not an option for various reasons. These are big, wide machines.

Or pay an exorbitant fee to have them come on farm.

After hitting the old boys network, we finally came up with some ideas. Ended up being a slipping alternator belt, that's where the computer was getting it's engine speed from and it wasn't correlating with the ground radar.

Now that slipping belt was going to cost us many thousands of dollars if Case IH had their way, they can charge what they like as they have NO competition.

What these companies want to do is strip all access to their documentation and shut you down so they can enjoy a monopoly.

It HAS happened in agriculture and now they want to do it to you and after trucks they will start targeting cars.

Independents are more than happy to pay for the access but the manufacturers want their monopoly. I note the prices aren't coming down with their new found wealth.

Ideally we would sell and go to another manufacturer but they are now operating like a cartel.

When you have to say to every customer who walks into your shop "sorry I can't help" you won't have a job for long.

Currently it's not a problem for you, that's how we want to keep it.

I hope that helps.

Fair enough. I guess that bridge shall be crossed when it comes to that for road transport and light vehicles.
I'd be interested to know if a similar sky is falling tune was said when electronic engine management was relatively new back in the day?!
I don't plan on staying in the trade for too much longer so it is no worry to me, but if I have no choice there is always the option of working on kenworth, apart from the engine and bluetooth stereo the trucks are a throw back to the 1970s

BTW would these assist you for the ag gear?

https://www.diesellaptops.com/TEXA-C...OHW-LAPTOP.htm

https://www.diesellaptops.com/Nexiq-...124032-PFD.htm

http://www.pfdiagnose.com/Store1.html

[NeillNZ]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Thanks for posting this. I heard about it yesterday on the Abc.

This is really important. Any farmer here will know exactly what is going on.

Tractors, headers, sprayers etc have moved to electronic control just as rapidly as their road going brethren. With one big difference. The manufacturers have been allowed to "lock down" the electronics with no ability to get information on any of it.
Now if we have a breakdown we are pretty much obliged to call a dealer network mechanic onto the property. Strictly speaking we can't touch any equipment anymore and servicing yourself has pretty much gone out the window.

A year ago we lost a pto on a tractor, it spent the next 6 months in the shed as a simple problem like that couldn't be fixed.

People are fighting to have these restrictions removed and it's a nasty fight. Manufacturers basically own our machinery that we pay millions of dollars to purchase.

I suggest everyone contact their mp to register their displeasure. A phone call should suffice.

Interesting video about what is going on in Nebraska. Check out LB67

"It's just the diagnostics folks"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8JCh0owT4w

[jpd80]

The big problem is manufacturers locking down their computers so no one else can service the cars properly,
even resetting things like low oil sensor that prevents the car firing after a service.

So now the catch cry is that cars are now too technically advanced to allow third parties to service them
and while the government may force OEms to share knowledge, you can bet they will move to protect
their IP by having special service tools and diagnostic units that cost a fortune to buy, just like always.

[Maka]

Big crystal ball gazing now (& maybe a bit off topic, my apologies to all but one day you never know lol..), do you think if the oem's fully get their way on the ip/tech sharing, can this sort of stuff actually lead to the eventual demise of private car/vehicle ownership a long way down the track where only leasing or worse ie: syndicated transport services is only possible?

There has been talk in the media of corparatisation of private car ownership -

https://www.mynrma.com.au/community/...nership-report -

"Building on the popularity of new mobility services like Uber and GoGet, the report states that as autonomous vehicles become more prolific, Australian households will own fewer cars.

Instead, households may opt for subscription-based transport services allowing people to tailor their vehicle choice to the individual journey."

Theres also a NRMA pdf from August 2017 called "The future of car ownership" which has their own take on this future issue were AV's rule the roads one day with perhaps other consequences I'm not happy about..

cheers, Maka

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by smoo

Fair enough. I guess that bridge shall be crossed when it comes to that for road transport and light vehicles.
I'd be interested to know if a similar sky is falling tune was said when electronic engine management was relatively new back in the day?!
I don't plan on staying in the trade for too much longer so it is no worry to me, but if I have no choice there is always the option of working on kenworth, apart from the engine and bluetooth stereo the trucks are a throw back to the 1970s

BTW would these assist you for the ag gear?

https://www.diesellaptops.com/TEXA-C...OHW-LAPTOP.htm

https://www.diesellaptops.com/Nexiq-...124032-PFD.htm

http://www.pfdiagnose.com/Store1.html

Thanks for the links mate.

They look interesting, way beyond my knowledge, I know zero about the computer side of things. I'll pass them on to some mechanics in the area though.

We were caught out with the fta. You want to sell us your cattle, this is how you're going to buy your equipment from us. Of course we have no idea what's being negotiated on our behalf...government secrets. Lol.

I think there are too many people owning cars to be totally locked out, but politicians need to know we are not happy.
That's why I suggest all enthusiasts just pick up the phone and call their local pollie to let them know it's unacceptable.

The ACCC is onto it as well but every bit of pressure helps.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by smoo

Fair enough. I guess that bridge shall be crossed when it comes to that for road transport and light vehicles.
I'd be interested to know if a similar sky is falling tune was said when electronic engine management was relatively new back in the day?!
I don't plan on staying in the trade for too much longer so it is no worry to me, but if I have no choice there is always the option of working on kenworth, apart from the engine and bluetooth stereo the trucks are a throw back to the 1970s

Thank god for that. I can still buy new parts for my 76 K125 from PACCAR.

[superyob]

Bull ****ten has never had a good idea in his life and this latest idea is nothing more than dressed up Marxism...