suspension issues with a BFIII wagon. - Page 2

snap0964 · 07-07-2019, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bushbasher

Here is a pic of the rear tyre. This tyre came off the front about 10k km ago and still had it's shoulder.

Someone correct me - that looks like rolling/camber wear, not scrub/toe wear. Does it feel smooth both ways or rough one way ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 78xcgxl

The fact that XHs also ran a slower ratio steering rack (21:1) compared to EF/EF sedan(18.5:1) only proves this fact even more. XH XRs ran the sedan ratio however. FYI i replaced the XH rack with an EL one and the car drives so much better with the sedan steering rack!

I've fitted an EL SSPS (speed sensitive) rack to my XH - very responsive steering.

BENT_8 · 07-07-2019, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snap0964

Someone correct me - that looks like rolling/camber wear, not scrub/toe wear.

If it was the inner edge of an irs equipped Commodore i'd agree, certainly looks like camber wear you'd see in that scenario, but shouldn't be showing that wear on a live axle Falcon wagon.
As I said earlier, it looks to me like the outside edge and tyre wall has been the contact patch when under high speed cornering due to a lack of give in the rear springs.
Its not a constant toe drag as you'd experience on a poorly aligned front end, but intermittent wear as a result of cornering.

**Gothefalcon** · 07-07-2019, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bushbasher

Not without putting the bullbar back on to hold the front down. The car is better balanced now but the front is now stiff as well and putting that much weight in the rear will make the front do wheelstands, lol. It's too stiff at the front now too and the whole car needs softening up but the purpose of the exercise it to see if the balance stops the rear tyre wear. If it does then I'll get the extra leaf removed from the rear then put the bullbar back on. It got new front tyres last week and gets new rears this week then I'll see how they wear before attacking the rear springs.

Here is a pic of the rear tyre. This tyre came off the front about 10k km ago and still had it's shoulder.

Attachment 101811

The tyre that went to the front was down to the canvas last week after it ate what was left of the shoulder. I've never had any vehicle do that to rear tyres like that.

I understand you said your rear axle housing isn't bent... but the wear on that tyre and the way you describe the wagon's handling makes me think that the rear axle housing is bent... not down (lower in the middle) but back (so both wheels are pointing in towards each other at the front, pidgeoned toed)
It wouldn't take much... and might be barely noticeable to the eye. It wasn't an unusual problem to have with a 9inch axle housing in the old days... which produced the same outcomes.

I've had many leaf spring Falcons.... Lowered, lifted, soft & hard set-ups... BW, Dana & 9in... I've done fairly high Ks in All of them... All but one looked after the rear tyres, and the one that didn't was bent back in the middle and did what yours is doing. Might just pay to double check it again !??

D

Bushbasher · 07-07-2019, 06:51 PM

Gothefalcon, if the axle was bent, would you expect both sides to be scrubbed or just the bent side? If both, would you expect it to be even wear or uneven, side to side?

Here's the drivers side tyre;

not quite as bad as the passenger side.

**Gothefalcon** · 07-07-2019, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bushbasher

Gothefalcon, if the axle was bent, would you expect both sides to be scrubbed or just the bent side? If both, would you expect it to be even wear or uneven, side to side?

Here's the drivers side tyre;

image

not quite as bad as the passenger side.

If both back wheels aren't running "true" (parallel) due to the axle housing being bent back... but one side wears worse than the other, that could point to the bend being more to one side of the housing (only one axle tube, not both) or just worse on one side, than the other !?? either way, even if just one side was out of true, I would think both of the wheels would then track out of true (as in, one steers inwards at the front, the other gets pushed out of true whilst fighting against it) as they are both aiming in slightly different directions !??

It's all just theory untill you measure things accurately and find an issue or not. My 9in housing was only out by mm... I replaced it and it fixed it for me. No suspension changes required. As I said, apart from that one housing on that car, my rear tyres have always worn evenly. You've got something out of whack.... I can't see stiffer springs causing that.

For the last 6-9yrs I've had a stock BA wagon... so fairly soft rear springs... and my BF2 AWD Wagon which has 1tonner Ute springs with an extra intermediate leaf... so fairly stiff. The BA has normal Wagon body roll at the rear... the BF2 hardly rolls at all... tyre wear on both is even.
D

XR Martin · 07-07-2019, 07:40 PM

I'm no expert but I wonder if the super stiff springs has bent the axle upwards over time?

Because if it was from being overloaded then the axle would be bent downwards, causing the inside of the tyres to wear?

**Gothefalcon** · 07-07-2019, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR Martin

I'm no expert but I wonder if the super stiff springs has bent the axle upwards over time?

Because if it was from being overloaded then the axle would be bent downwards, causing the inside of the tyres to wear?

To me it would seem that if the axle housing was bent upwards (in the middle) but the wheels were still parallel.... the outer edge of the tyre might wear, but more rounded... & the face would wear unevenly as well !?? The pics here show what looks like a chamfered edge... which indicates a somewhat sideways scrubbing to me (like a tyre that can't run in the direction it wants to go entirely !??).

D

snap0964 · 07-07-2019, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

If it was the inner edge of an irs equipped Commodore i'd agree, certainly looks like camber wear you'd see in that scenario, but shouldn't be showing that wear on a live axle Falcon wagon.

Yep, std fare with the IRS Commos, but that's why I mentioned it here as it doesn't add up.
OP. like what's been mentioned, you need to measure up the rear axle - better still, get a thrust alignment from a suspension place, so you can see where the front and rear ends are at.
Be interesting to see the alignment figures from when all the suspension work was done.

**janddbone** · 07-12-2019, 03:31 AM

How did you go?

Bushbasher · 07-12-2019, 07:54 PM

Well........., I took the bullbar off and took it to a tyre place for a wheel alignment. The guy told me the alignment was out by 6mm!! I don't understand how it could be that bad and still track straight but it did. Once I got it back it transformed the car. All the twitchyness went away, the odd tyre wear seems to have stopped and it even felt pretty good on dirt roads even with the stiff suspension. The rear is still too stiff IMO and the rear wants to step out a little too easily but all in all it's not too bad if you don't push it hard.
The bullbar is back on it now to see if it is going to affect the wear of the rear tyres but so far it's all good. I'm going to use it to pull my Delica to the diesel mechanic next week on a car trailer so we'll see how good this towing set up really is.

Cheers
Bushbasher

**janddbone** · 08-12-2019, 04:05 PM

Yep sounds like it will smooth out with a load.

FlyingFord · 09-12-2019, 02:14 PM

Just put a post 'somewhere' ( a barely computer literate newbie here ) regarding the BF wagon I have and possible suspension improvements.

This thread has proved invaluable and I thank you one and all for sharing this as I feel much more able to approach my car issues with at least a bit better understanding of what I am doing and what to look for.

Anyone ever fit a sway bar in the rear of a Falcon wagon? Good bad or save my money and busted knuckles? Do the front with a stiffer bar as well?

BTW. With the spare mounted right side rear compartment due to the LPG tank taking its place underneath apparently it is normal to see more sag in the right rear leaf spring. Pedders put an extra leaf in both but a slightly stiffer one in the right side.

Wife did a great job catching a tailslide in the wet when it stepped out (its done it to me too) and I decided better tyres were needed and that improved things a lot. Seems modern tyre compounds go hard and become less grippy quite fast now with plenty of tread remaining - synthetic (non)rubber I guess.

Bushbasher · 09-12-2019, 06:39 PM

Welcome to the forums mate, there's plenty to learn around here if you take a look .
As for suspension sag, never heard of that before and I've been driving dual fuel Ford wagons since 06. Our last AU went 450k without sagging on the drivers side and is still going strong as a shearers bus last I heard.

You certainly don't need an extra leaf in the rear just to carry a spare and gas tank. Mine is set up like that because it was built up to pull a 25' caravan before we bought it. I'd like to remove the extra springs but the missus won't hear of it, and it's her car not mine.
If yours is a series III like ours it has Dynamic Stability Control so will pull the car straight if it senses a slide, otherwise your cars tendency to want to slide is because of those extra leaves in the rear springs making the rear too stiff compared to the front.

arronm · 09-12-2019, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bushbasher

Well........., I took the bullbar off and took it to a tyre place for a wheel alignment. The guy told me the alignment was out by 6mm!! I don't understand how it could be that bad and still track straight but it did. Once I got it back it transformed the car. All the twitchyness went away, the odd tyre wear seems to have stopped and it even felt pretty good on dirt roads even with the stiff suspension. The rear is still too stiff IMO and the rear wants to step out a little too easily but all in all it's not too bad if you don't push it hard.
The bullbar is back on it now to see if it is going to affect the wear of the rear tyres but so far it's all good. I'm going to use it to pull my Delica to the diesel mechanic next week on a car trailer so we'll see how good this towing set up really is.

Cheers
Bushbasher

If your going to run the bullbar you should have got wheel align done with bullbar on. Ride height affects both camber and caster. By adding the bullbar after you would have dialled in a bit more negative camber

6mm out at the front?? Does he mean he had to add or subtract 6mm of shims ??

Bushbasher · 09-12-2019, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arronm

If your going to run the bullbar you should have got wheel align done with bullbar on. Ride height affects both camber and caster. By adding the bullbar after you would have dialled in a bit more negative camber

Mate, the front end barely dropped half an inch when I put the bullbar back on and it tracks ok and the wear is ok thus far so we'll see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arronm

6mm out at the front?? Does he mean he had to add or subtract 6mm of shims ??

I have no idea because the guy wasn't being too talkative, he wasn't happy that I'd wandered into the tyre bay to ask him about the alignment so I was getting grunts and single syllable responses.I tried to explain to him that I'd had a ball joint replaced by a local mechanic who did a basic alignment and it tracked straight after but was just twitchy.... Mind you that was the same guy that since then screwed up a diesel injector pump install, kept the van for 6 weeks and eventually dumped it outside my neighbors place still in pieces. He tried to tell me it had done number 1 gudgion pin because it was rattling like a bastid but I've since taken the van to a diesel specialist who confirmed my suspicion that it was just the timing was out.

**janddbone** · 09-12-2019, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingFord

Just put a post 'somewhere' ( a barely computer literate newbie here ) regarding the BF wagon I have and possible suspension improvements.

This thread has proved invaluable and I thank you one and all for sharing this as I feel much more able to approach my car issues with at least a bit better understanding of what I am doing and what to look for.

Anyone ever fit a sway bar in the rear of a Falcon wagon? Good bad or save my money and busted knuckles? Do the front with a stiffer bar as well?

BTW. With the spare mounted right side rear compartment due to the LPG tank taking its place underneath apparently it is normal to see more sag in the right rear leaf spring. Pedders put an extra leaf in both but a slightly stiffer one in the right side.

Wife did a great job catching a tailslide in the wet when it stepped out (its done it to me too) and I decided better tyres were needed and that improved things a lot. Seems modern tyre compounds go hard and become less grippy quite fast now with plenty of tread remaining - synthetic (non)rubber I guess.

If you had a tired leaf pack and simply had a stiff load bearing leaf added this will make the rear step out for sure, if it is just doing standard daily duties. I would find some genuine ones, in good condition, to replace the lot.

I would also recommend lowering your tyre pressures in the rear, I personally run 26psi in leaf spring falcons with no load. Up to 30 on long highway trips and naturally higher again if it is actually carrying something.

From memory none of the egas Falcons got tc or esp at all?