How multicultural is Holden?

[zetec]

Falcon is designed from scratch in Australia, the engine is designed and built here, it is FAR more Aussie than the Commodore EVER could be. Not only that but Ford is now 80 in australia with Falcon proudly accounting for half of those years. We're yet to see and all Aussie Commondore if we look at design and engine build.

In fact doesn't Ford have 2 totally purpose designed, engineered and built locally produced vehicles? Territory!!! Need I mention Ute and perhaps Fairlane as well?

Anyone who uses the rubbish line of Holdens being more Aussie than Fords can go jump, because Ford also manufactured Lasers, Escorts, you name it. All made in Australia.

If Holden really loved us would they still be using boat anchors to power their best selling car?

[JADED6]

Originally Posted by The Dok

: Ok my 2c worth:
Headlights/taillights/bodylights=Sth Korea since@1994
Interior trim (some) + doortrims=India

Hendersons / Aunde Trim made most of the Commodore & magna seats. Assembled with trim made in South Africa though.
Did have a VE prototype seat base as my computer chair. haha.

Most all interior plastics for the holden & some for the magna are made at Exacto plastics in Adelaide. For what a lot of it is, they have very high quality standards on what actually gets sent to holdens and i imagine holden send a lot of it back to.

[MethodX]

So one multinational American company is more Australian than another multinational American company because it sells basically an updated XK Falcon.
Wheres the other company utilises resources from its parent.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by MethodX

So one multinational American company is more Australian than another multinational American company because it sells basically an updated XK Falcon.
Wheres the other company utilises resources from its parent.

Such an uninformed post I have not seen in a while. Updated XK Falcon? Stop living in 1962. We don't drive XL Falcons around buddy.

:

[aquahead2001]

Originally Posted by MethodX

So one multinational American company is more Australian than another multinational American company because it sells basically an updated XK Falcon.
Wheres the other company utilises resources from its parent.

It's true that the BA can trace it's roots back to the US Falcon (XK) but seeing the US dropped Falcon in the late 1960's and Ford Australia with it's meagre resources (compared to its parent) has continued development of the old chassis and drive line it could be said that Falcon is now Australian. Considering all that remains of the original Falcon is the bore centres of the engine and maybe an area of the fire wall that hasn’t been redesigned, you could safely say that continuous improvement has made it a new car.

I bet there are many examples of throw backs in the automotive industry that we punters never hear about. It’s just our beloved ford has fessed up and told us of the Falcon’s history. Putting it another way, just because the wheel nut PCD hasn’t changed since XP/XR days (earlier if you count the compact Fairlanes) doesn’t mean all the wheels from the last 39 years are interchangeable!

The Bureau of Statistics did review on “Australian Content” in Motor Cars a while back; the Falcon was lay down misere winner with the others at least 5% behind. We all know about Holden’s new engine plant, but did you know that ION Automotive were contracted to actually provide the blocks from Melbourne and the heads from South Australia? When ION recently collapsed, Holden had no choice but to continue the supply of blocks and heads from Mexico, up until recently the hugely expensive machines to manufacture the blocks were in shipping containers in a bond store in Melbourne hoping someone would buy them from the administrators of ION.

[MRJUCY]

Originally Posted by Steffo

3.6 V6 = Made Here, designed in USA

I don't think there's been an entirely Aussie designed and made car since the Holden 48/215. And there probably never will be, always going to have foreign bits in them. Falcon is about as close as it gets.

Cast in Mexico assembled here

The FX wasn't designed here as often claimed it was a rejected design for the Chevy Nova. It was unique to Australia tho as even tho they designed it they didn't want it as they didn't feel it good enough. I think some of the later Holdens were designed here tho

I was reading the other day about Holden replacing Pilkington glass when the VE comes out. They sited the same reasons Ford did for leaving them lack of quality & too many strikes had meant unreliable service. Everytime the Pilkington mob striked (which is bloody often) it meant all 4 car companies had to lay down much of there staff as they couldn't assemble cars as well as many of there suppliers had to do the same thing costing alot of money, time & inconvenience to the companies & us the conumers. In the end Ford & Holden have had to do what was right for there people & unfortunately that means importing glass (Thailand it is beleived for Holden) which means I think the Pilkington guys will have done themselves out of a job soon as I don't see Mitsu & Toyota holding them up when they can import glass easier then anyone

[Shonky]

Originally Posted by Gammaboy

SHouldn't it be all covered in sheepskin if it was made in NZ?

Nah... Car shaggers doesn't have the same ring to it...

[MITCHAY]

Didnt lasers originate from Japan? And i thought Escorts originated from the UK? Seeing as though i dont care where a car is built so long as its a good car I can excuse myself for being wrong in advance if i am. e

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by MRJUCY

The FX wasn't designed here as often claimed it was a rejected design for the Chevy Nova.

The Chevy Nova was basically the "Sporty" version of the "Chevy II" compact (on which the Camaro was based). I think the Nova tag showed up in about 1966 .. and eventually I think they dropped the "Chevy II" tag and just called the laster cars Novas. So .. I doubt that a car manufactured in '48 was a rejected design of a car from '66? The 48-215 *was* basically an American GM design though. Americans didn't reject it, they just wouldn't left the Australian design their own car. An the 48-215 did basically what it was designed to do .. a cheap, light, robust, economical car.

Be thankful Holden with their American designed cars where here guys. I think Ford Australia would have been very happy to use English Fords as the basis of most of there models otherwise. Remember that Ford Australia were hedging bets with early Falcons and Zephers being sold side-by-side ... ;)

[SB076]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

And which Aussie company would that be. Would that be the US Owned Ford? The Japenese owned Toyota? The US Owned Holden perhaps? After all they mean a great deal to Australia. The car industry is multinational, so is the parts supply that runs it. We export Holdens to the Middle East. Maybe they should stop buying our cars because we are nothing more then cheap filthy foreigners?

I think he was refering to the suppliers of the Automotive companies (local owned and operated buisness) Problem is that local companies cannot compete with overseas companies due to our work practices (ie safeguarding workers, enviromental concerns etc) and labour costs - last I heard a good wage in China was $5 US a day, labour here cost probably about $150 US a day (taking into account various taxes, and super) There are a lot of Australian jobs involved with Automotive (When Mitsubishi looked like closing - there where an estimated 20,000 jobs expected to be effected) If all four car companies where to move there manufacturing overseas there would be a lot of jobs that would go with them, which would have an significant effect on the economy.

[rick69]

Originally Posted by zetec

Falcon is designed from scratch in Australia, the engine is designed and built here, it is FAR more Aussie than the Commodore EVER could be. Not only that but Ford is now 80 in australia with Falcon proudly accounting for half of those years. We're yet to see and all Aussie Commondore if we look at design and engine build.
In fact doesn't Ford have 2 totally purpose designed, engineered and built locally produced vehicles? Territory!!! Need I mention Ute and perhaps Fairlane as well?

Ok, so Ford Australia utilises absolutely NONE of Ford's global resources??
It DOES'NT have US engineers coming here to work on projects???

Falcon engine designed and built here from scratch???? Didn't it have a Honda designed and made cylinder head for a number of years??

Originally Posted by zetec

Ford also manufactured Lasers, Escorts, you name it. All made in Australia.?

Yeah, while holden manufactured Toranas, Gemini's, Camiras etc.. So what's your point? Holden has manufactured just as many if not more vehicles in Aus.
If I am correct, Lasers came here in CKD form from Mazda and were only assembled here.

Originally Posted by zetec

If Holden really loved us would they still be using boat anchors to power their best selling car?

So the quad cam all alloy V6 and the LS1 are boat anchors?? You really need to take a reality check.
Oh, and are people forgetting that Holden used an Aussie designed and built EFI V8 from 1989 - 1999, while Ford used a fully imported EFI V8 from 1992 - 2002....

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by rick69

So the quad cam all alloy V6 and the LS1 are boat anchors?? You really need to take a reality check.
Oh, and are people forgetting that Holden used an Aussie designed and built EFI V8 from 1989 - 1999, while Ford used a fully imported EFI V8 from 1992 - 2002....

The 253/304/308/350 Holden motors were of Buick design origins, were they not?

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by rick69

Ok, so Ford Australia utilises absolutely NONE of Ford's global resources??
It DOES'NT have US engineers coming here to work on projects???

Falcon engine designed and built here from scratch???? Didn't it have a Honda designed and made cylinder head for a number of years??



Yeah, while holden manufactured Toranas, Gemini's, Camiras etc.. So what's your point? Holden has manufactured just as many if not more vehicles in Aus.
If I am correct, Lasers came here in CKD form from Mazda and were only assembled here.



So the quad cam all alloy V6 and the LS1 are boat anchors?? You really need to take a reality check.
Oh, and are people forgetting that Holden used an Aussie designed and built EFI V8 from 1989 - 1999, while Ford used a fully imported EFI V8 from 1992 - 2002....

Either cool it a bit or go back to ls1.com - stop getting so defensive! Somebody says "boo" and you're instantly on about how Holden can say/do/power it better!

[MethodX]

No the 308 wasnt a Buick or Olds motor.
The guys that designed them just had a personal preferance for thr Rocket 8 and Buick engines.

[Perana]

Originally Posted by Steffo

The 253/304/308/350 Holden motors were of Buick design origins, were they not?

Was a Mirror Image copy of the SB Chev

To this date Holden have NOT designed an engine on their own... Closest they got were the Heads for the Blue/Black motors and the 304 EFi heads.. Oh lets not forget the Starfire 4 ! A Red motor with 2 less pots !

[M14A-Mclaren]

That corrugated iron Kingswood is just by some farmer artist guy who makes all sorts of stuff like that around the country, Te Papa (the museum that is in) must have liked it. Personally I like the Britten Motorbike on display about 20 steps away, which has a real good story behind it.

[rick69]

Originally Posted by Steffo

The 253/304/308/350 Holden motors were of Buick design origins, were they not?

Yes, they are of US origin, but that was a long time ago. Over the years it got so much development input from Aus that it basically became an all aussie engine. Eg. The EFI heads and injection system were uniquely Aussie.
It is exactly the same story with the Falcon I6, you call it all Aussie, but it's US origins are undeniable.

[Perana]

The Bore centres of the Aussie I6 are the same as the original... NOTHING else !

[rick69]

Originally Posted by Perana XR8

The Bore centres of the Aussie I6 are the same as the original... NOTHING else !

Obviously, but what I am getting at is that it is a development over time of a US product, it never originated in Australia.

[MO]

SO IF holden is so good why are they giving $2k of free fuel & rego with every new purchase.....don't see FORD doing this.

Further to the point if Aussies had supported their own car builders...eg WHIPPET we would have had a totally different case today.

[Yaw]

Wow guys, Settle down.
We know the falcon and territory are made here in Australia
and we know the commodore has other "design and manufacture" influences.
Seems to me the new Ford Focus currently being advertised as german designed is actually put together and manufatured in Spain and South Africa.
My Ford Escape is made in the Japan Mazda Factory along side the Tributes.
However From the latest Wheels magazine I find that the new Holden Barina's and Vectra's Replacements are Korean Daewoo's. The Barina and the current Suziki swift are just rebadged Daewoo Kalos'
So I don't think any particular Car manufacturer can claim to be fully Australian. I reckon Just accept it.

[BOSS 540]

Yeah, while holden manufactured Toranas, Gemini's, Camiras etc.. So what's your point? Holden has manufactured just as many if not more vehicles in Aus.
If I am correct, Lasers came here in CKD form from Mazda and were only assembled here.

Toranas, Gemini's, Camiras, Sunbirds?, hardly a claim to fame!. Why Holden and its true believers keep perpetuating the myth they are an iconic Australian brand is just pure marketing bullsh-t to sell more cars to suckers who are dumb enough or brainwashed thru the generations to beleive in it.
Football, Meat pies, Kangaroos, whatever!

[MethodX]

umm how many bathursts and championships did Toranas win?
quite a few wasnt it?


Both companies are Australian arms of American multinationals, so whats the big deal?

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by rick69

.....blah, blah...... while Ford used a fully imported EFI V8 from 1992 - 2002....

Right on time, 5 to 6 and Rick69 types out his nightly kamikaze suicide post to impress his lil mates in red pyjama land..

Operation Oversize Chrome Lion has begun!

[MITCHAY]

Seriously some people need a tissue box over the issue. Has anyone here bought a car on the specific basis of it being more Aussie than the other?

Why Holden and its true believers keep perpetuating the myth they are an iconic Australian brand is just pure marketing bullsh-t to sell more cars to suckers who are dumb enough or brainwashed thru the generations to beleive in it.
Football, Meat pies, Kangaroos, whatever!

It works for them doesnt it. Once again ask how many of these Holden drivers bought the car because they think its more Aussie than Ford. They sell more because they are more popular.

Ford can bring out the best car in the world and be more aussie but if Holden are still more popular they are goin to sell more.

Havent Ford won 3 best car awards or something and out of the 3 only 1 has outsold the competitor.

[MO]

GO get em RED!!!

[Dave_au]

http://www.drive.com.au/editorial/ar...x?id=5128&vf=1

Originally Posted by drive/SMH

Hey true blue

Russell Williamson

Tuesday April 13 2004

Just how Australian are the five cars built here? And does it really matter? Russell Williamson explores patriotism in the new car buying equation and if the bottom line is what really counts.

Just how Australian are the five cars built in Australia? And does it really matter?

When Holden launched the 48-215 in 1948, the car was sold as "Australia's Own Car". No matter that the car and its 2.15-litre, six-cylinder engine had been essentially designed by Opel and General Motors engineers in the US and was originally intended for use by Chevrolet. It was still Australia's first car and one that would be completely built in Australia.

Before the FX, as it became known, cars sold in Australia were basically assembled from kits imported from Europe or the US.

For the FX, however, the complete bodies were built at Woodville in South Australia, engines came out of Fishermans Bend, and the whole car was assembled and painted at plants in Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth.

The original FX design was modified for Australian tastes by three local engineers seconded to Detroit, and the car was cheap, powerful and spacious, all of which contributed to booming sales, so that by 1952 one in three new cars sold in Australia were 48-215s.

Apart from its obvious suitability to the local road network, Holden pushed the patriotism button -- and it worked.

After World War II there was a new optimism in Australia that said we could do anything as good as anyone else, so why not show you were proud of our achievements and buy Australian. It's an attitude that has long been pushed by various governments and one that is used by manufacturers of a range of goods to help them compete against imported products.

Holden continues to plug the Commodore, originally derived in its 1978 VB form from GM's Opel-designed "world car", as an Australian car for Australian tastes. Ford, meanwhile, claims it is "the only Australian car manufacturer that wholly designs, develops and builds a range of vehicles locally -- the Falcon".

But just how Australian are our five locally produced cars -- the Commodore, Falcon, Magna, Avalon and Camry? After all, they are all derived from models that were first designed and developed overseas -- although there have been significant changes to them since then -- and are manufactured by companies that are subsidiaries of Japanese or US parents.

Each also sources many significant components from overseas, be it engines, transmissions or some of the steel.

So for an objective measure of Australian-ness, it comes down to local content.

Toyota, for instance, makes no apologies for the Camry being its "world car", designed overseas and assembled here with changes. The Camry also shares key underpinnings with Camrys built everywhere from Japan to the US. It also has plenty in common with the Toyota Kluger and some Lexus models.

At the same time, when it launched its new Camry last year, Toyota was at pains to point out that it had the highest ever local content, about 75 percent, with a unique platform and locally tuned suspension. There is a catch, however: that figure only applies to the four-cylinder model -- an "international" engine that is built here -- because the V6 engines are imported.

Mitsubishi also puts the local content of the Magna at about 75 percent, and despite the all-new car due in 2005 being based on US-developed architecture, the Australian Magna will only share about 40 percent with its US cousin and retain the 75 percent local content.

Like all car-makers these days, Toyota and Mitsubishi are tied into global sourcing programs, which mean they could source components from anywhere in the world. But both try to maintain a high level of local sourcing.

They may claim altruism as a driving force, but it's the bottom line that counts.

"In addition to supporting the local industry, the use of more local suppliers allows us to reduce our exposure to foreign currency fluctuations. The logistics involved with using local suppliers rather than sourcing components from overseas is another benefit," a Toyota spokesman says.

Neither Mitsubishi nor Toyota particularly push their Australian-made barrow, but they don't deny the marketing benefits to be had.

Toyota's divisional general manager of marketing, Scott Grant, says having the Camry built in Australia is a benefit but it is not a primary reason for people to buy the car.

"We have some research that shows that as a secondary factor it is important, but it is not a prime factor in their purchasing decision. They will buy the car because it suits their needs, it is appropriate, or the price, and if it is built in Australia that is terrific," Grant says.

Grant admits that Camry is not in the same league as Falcon or Commodore in the cultural landscape, citing "the heritage of Falcon and Commodore as icons in the Australian industry that are underpinned by a motorsport heritage that is fundamental to Australian culture and society".

When it comes to Ford and Holden, there has always been a patriotic flavour to their marketing and promotion. It may be more subtle now than past Holden ads that linked football, meat pies and kangaroos with Holden cars, but the imagery and ambience is still overtly Australian.

Ford's Falcon brand marketing manager, Ross Booth, says the Australian-made qualities of Falcon are important to customers and is a factor in their buying decisions. He adds, however, that Ford is now more subtle in getting the local message across.

"It's something that is in our current campaign and we have recently changed our (television commercial) to incorporate a line on an Australian-built car," Booth says. "The understanding and the knowledge that the Falcon is an Australian-built vehicle are very high."

Ford claims its local content is between 85 and 90 percent, which is believed to be higher than that of the Commodore, with the basics of the V6 engine imported here before being assembled locally.

So, Ford and Holden do promote their Australian-ness, but when it comes to the car-buying public, do they really care where their car is built? Does it matter that an Australian Commodore uses a US-built V8 engine or the Falcon XR8's manual gearbox is made in Mexico?

It makes increasingly less difference, according to market research firm Roy Morgan. Last year the company's annual Image of Car Manufacturers survey revealed that just 6.4 percent of the population believe the most or second-most important feature when buying a new car is that the car is built in Australia. In 1994, 10.5 percent of Australians believed that "locally built cars" was the most or second-most important attribute when buying a new car. This drop of more than 4 percentage points suggests that being Australian-made is becoming less important in the new-car buying process.

The survey also showed that of people intending to buy one of the four locally built cars, the importance of it being local was strongest among potential Ford customers, with nearly 25 percent believing it was the most important attribute.

As a contributing factor, Ford's Ross Booth puts it even higher. "People always want to buy Australian because it is the right thing to do. I would estimate that in people who purchase Falcons, the fact that it is Australian is another factor that helps with their purchasing decision.

"Because we are all very patriotic, I would say 75 percent would use that to justify their purchasing decision."

As a recent immigrant from Canada, Brian Gibbs, an associate professor of marketing and behavioural science at Melbourne School of Business, says there is plenty of evidence of patriotic marketing of goods in Australia.

"As a relative outsider, I was surprised by the amount of labelling I see here on consumer products -- 'Australian-made', 'Australian-owned'. The Canadian perspective is that Americans are very patriotic but I have never seen the amount of labelling of that sort to the level that I have seen here," Gibbs says.

"So it suggests to me that while Australians don't think of themselves as patriotic, the prevalence of those labels suggests that there is a fair amount of patriotism at least when it comes to patronising local manufacturers and owners."

Gibbs says appealing to the patriot, particularly when it comes to marketing cars, can be very effective.

"In the case of automobiles, it is a very high-ticket item and for some consumers it is also very high-involvement. Because of the general level of high involvement, and because some people think of the car as almost part of their identity, this kind of appeal can be used quite effectively.

"You are talking to people who take the car very seriously, it is a bit of a projection of themselves and, to the extent that they are at all patriotic, marketing the car in that way is going to be a hook."

Because of globalisation and constant pressures to cut costs, the local content of the Australian cars may well wax and wane, but Gibbs says this is unlikely to affect their status and appeal.

"Marketing is all about massaging that image," Gibbs says. "A company like Holden can argue that its heritage is genuinely Australian (but) can you say that about Mitsubishi?

"That idea that you can separate consumers' perceptions, and even more deeply their relationship to the product, from the objective reality of the product, that is part and parcel of marketing and branding."

And that means that to most of Australia's car-buying public, Falcon and Commodore will always be the quintessential Aussie cars.

How Australian is your car?

The Falcon was originally a US product; the Commodore was adapted from a German-designed Opel Rekord; which was part of GM's global large-car program; Camry is a Toyota world car that had much of its development done in the US and Japan; and the Magna came from a four-cylinder, mid-sized, Chrysler-built, Mitsubishi-designed Japanese Sigma.

But these days all are considered Australian products, with the measure being the amount of local content on a cost basis.

Ford claims the highest, with between 85 and 90 percent. The big-ticket import items are glass, which is sourced from China; some steel and main audio components, which come from Japan; the V8 engine, which is built in the US; and the manual gearbox for some sports models, which comes from Mexico. No great surprise that in sourcing the best, Ford looked to Italy for its Falcon horns.

Holden is not willing to disclose the local content of Commodore because it says there are many ways in which it can be measured. Suffice to say that the "majority" of the car is locally sourced, with the main import items coming from North America, including the V8 engine from Canada, manual gearbox from Mexico and the auto transmission from the US. Some steel is from Japan, the audio systems are made in Malaysia and the lights come from Korea.

Toyota's latest-generation Camry has the highest local content of any Camry built here, at about 75 percent. Apart from some tyres from Thailand, all the other imported components come from Japan, such as the V6 engine and both manual and automatic transmissions. Steel and tyres for some models also come from Japan.

Mitsubishi sources most of its imported components from Japan, with local content on the Magna/Verada range averaging about 75 percent. The main import items are manual and auto transmissions, some steel, a few suspension components and some tyres for particular models.

Patriot games

Volkswagen may be the quintessential German company, but for the Australian market we get a Polo sedan from China, the big Touareg from the Czech Republic and the Beetle from Mexico. It's a sign of the times that most of the big global makers are looking beyond their home countries where production costs are high to alternative sources of production.

BMW sources its 3 Series sedans from South Africa. Mercedes-Benz also has a plant in South Africa, which supplies all right-hand-drive C Class models.

Apart from C Class, Mercedes also gets its ML 4WD from Alabama in the US, while on the Chrysler side of things, Wrangler and Cherokee come from the US, Grand Cherokee and Voyager are built in Austria, the new Crossfire coupe comes from Germany and the retro PT Cruiser is made in Mexico.

Even a small company such as Saab, which builds just over 100,000 cars a year, doesn't manufacture everything in Sweden, with the convertible 9-3 being put together by an independent operation in Austria.

DaimlerChrysler's public relations manager, Toni Andreevski, says people are not concerned about where a car is built so long as it maintains the brand values.

"The modern automotive industry is highly complex and globalised in nature and nearly every developed or developing country is in some way involved in vehicle development. It doesn't matter where a vehicle is built; it is more important that the build quality upholds the value of the badge," he says.

[B]

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Havent Ford won 3 best car awards or something and out of the 3 only 1 has outsold the competitor.

1980 Mazda 323
1981 Mercedes-Benz 380SE (W126)
1982 Holden Camira (JB)
1983 Ford Telstar and Mazda 626 (joint award)
1984 Mitsubishi Nimbus
1985 Mitsubishi Magna (TM)
1986 Award withheld
1987 Honda Prelude
1988 Holden Commodore (VN)
1989 Mazda MX-5
1990 Lexus LS 400
1991 Honda NSX and Nissan Pulsar
1992 Mazda 626 and Ford Telstar
1993 Holden Commodore (VR)
1994 Subaru Liberty
1995 Honda Odyssey
1996 Mitsubishi Magna/Verada
1997 Holden Commodore (VT)
1998 Subaru Liberty Wagon
1999 Mercedes-Benz S-Class
2000 Subaru Impreza
2001 Holden Barina (XC)
2002 Ford Falcon (BA)
2003 Mazda RX-8
2004 Ford Territory

[MITCHAY]

It makes increasingly less difference, according to market research firm Roy Morgan. Last year the company's annual Image of Car Manufacturers survey revealed that just 6.4 percent of the population believe the most or second-most important feature when buying a new car is that the car is built in Australia. In 1994, 10.5 percent of Australians believed that "locally built cars" was the most or second-most important attribute when buying a new car. This drop of more than 4 percentage points suggests that being Australian-made is becoming less important in the new-car buying process.

Sums up my argument nicely

Didnt Falcon XT, Territory and Fiesta win a best car award this year or last year. I dont mean overall. Sorry my bad.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Sums up my argument nicely

Didnt Falcon XT, Territory and Fiesta win a best car award this year or last year. I dont mean overall. Sorry my bad.

In the useless NRMA best family cars thing yeah.