BA XT vs VP 5L

[EBFalcs]

Originally Posted by Steffo

BA XT would absolutley destroy a VP V8.

Its more powerful, the chassis is far superior, so therefore better power down....

Not to mention that the BA is a relatively new car, whereas the VP is old, so it had less power and torque to begin with, and that 12-15 year old car won't have all of its kiloWatts and Newton metres anymore....

No contest win to the BA.

wow an extra 17kw to make up for another 250 or so kg and the VP has more torque kw don't mean **** in drags

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by EBFalcs

wow an extra 17kw to make up for another 250 or so kg and the VP has more torque kw don't mean **** in drags

The base VP had 165kW 385Nm when new. The BA has 182kW 380Nm. 5Nm more torque, when new!!! And that was a long time ago, it DOES NOT have 165kW 385Nm anymore, that can be certain.

Then you have to figure in the chassis sophistication difference. The BA has a modern, sophisticated chassis and suspension setup able to much more efficiently make use of its power and torque, whereas the VP is comparatively stone age.

So what have we got? An old car with an inferior chassis and less power up against a new, more powerful car with a superior chassis and suspension. The VP has absolutley no hope in hell of beating a BA. Not when it was new, and not today.

[EL_futuraistic]

LOW TECH OLD V8 vs HIGH TECH NEW I6

the ba will hose the VP, providing both vehicles are stock with no modifications. The Holdens tend to have a slightly better geared transmission than the fords, but you should be able to use the "tiptronic" to counter fords extremely long 1st gear.


I agree with FAIRMONT 4.0....... sick of the "who would win" threads.

[EBFalcs]

most VP's have IRS, i know BA's are quick and it might win, i wouldn't be so sure if i were you. my brother has a SS and his mate an XT and one of my mates has an XT and i've been in both plenty of times, the turbo 700's also shift alot quicker and harder than the fords. and what does the chassis have to do with anything, it's the suspension that determines power to ground,

[oneredED]

Haha, I love these threads. Just fricken race already!
I reckon the VP would win :P

[RavenLS1]

the BA by .124236547342345 of a second for sure!!!

[oneredED]

So what have we got? An old car with an inferior chassis and less power up against a new, more powerful car with a superior chassis and suspension. The VP has absolutley no hope in hell of beating a BA. Not when it was new, and not today.

Steffo, as much as this is a **** thread, I do disagree. Granted, 165kw is pretty low power now-a-days, but the weight advantage is still an advantage. I would expect the VP to pull a low to mid 15 (my brothers 360,000 original engine VP V6 wagon pulled 15.9). The VP will be slow, most possibly slower than the falcon, but i wouldn't say no-hope-in-hell...

[EBFalcs]

Originally Posted by oneredED

Steffo, as much as this is a **** thread, I do disagree. Granted, 165kw is pretty low power now-a-days, but the weight advantage is still an advantage. I would expect the VP to pull a low to mid 15 (my brothers 360,000 original engine VP V6 wagon pulled 15.9). The VP will be slow, most possibly slower than the falcon, but i wouldn't say no-hope-in-hell...

you do know we're talking about a V8 VP

[Polyal]

I too hate these threads, but Im going to post.

The VP might get the jump, but once the BA gets going the VP is dead. Thats my experience with most Falcon vs Commy races anyway.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by Abacus

Where is SlickHolden when you need him. This is a thread made for him.

It's a V8 not V6 :

Originally Posted by EBFalcs

i was just wondering what you's think would be quicker down the 1/4 mile

The 5lt might only have 165kw. That and 1400 od kg would do a 1/4 under 15 just or very low 15.

Originally Posted by Steffo

The base VP had 165kW 385Nm when new. The BA has 182kW 380Nm. 5Nm more torque, when new!!! And that was a long time ago, it DOES NOT have 165kW 385Nm anymore, that can be certain.

Then you have to figure in the chassis sophistication difference. The BA has a modern, sophisticated chassis and suspension setup able to much more efficiently make use of its power and torque, whereas the VP is comparatively stone age.

So what have we got? An old car with an inferior chassis and less power up against a new, more powerful car with a superior chassis and suspension. The VP has absolutley no hope in hell of beating a BA. Not when it was new, and not today.

Drags cars have low tech chassis does that make them crap old and slow?.
The BA's chassis has nothing to do with a 1/4 drag. Because it's slower off the mark. It's heavier it will not launch harder or get though it's gears faster.
And the Torque in the 5lt is better used the BA's tall gearing won't help it.
And you can't guess all 5lt's have lost power do you forget the people that look after there cars and maintain them. The car can be as low tech and inferior as you wont it to be, But it will still get down the 1/4 faster time and time again. Now if it was a manual traction would be it's biggest issue but holden tuned these engines to be a touch softer on take off then give it full go just slightly higher in the rev range.
And many of the 5lt VP's came with IRS.
I know a bloke that would eat you up for considering his VP 5lt is slow and doesn't have the factory power. You should also consider some cars never have the factory claimed power the middle of the week built cars.
There was a guy on here that owned a VP V6 manual and stock it was 125 RWKW. My brothers EFII Fairmont was 171 FWKW stock.

Power and Torque argument, Sounds like the one with the I6 Alloytech.

[cArSiK]

Originally Posted by FAIRMONT4.0

sick of these ridiculous "who would win" threads

So why open them?

--------------------------------------------

I would say the BA would win , although its heavier and isnt geared as well its got a fair wack more power.

[greenfoam]

A BA XR6 non turbo is *exactly* the same speed over the 1/4 as a healthy VN V6 with a CAI on it. A VP 5 liter will run high 14's or 15 flat all day every day, any day. Much faster than the VR SS someone mentioned earlier. I know I own one and have had many enconters with BA's the V6 used to have to be flat to the floor to gain even one meter on a BA im very impressed with the BA 6 as it's about the fastest family car on the road and my V6 is about the quickest stock one that exsists so if it's having trouble most of them are going to be loosing.

The 5 liter on the other hand beats a BA quite easily. Still I'm sure there are 100's of VP 5 liters around that need a new dizzy cap, rotor button, fuel filter, spark leads/plugs etc those things can put one down 20rwkw.

So I wouldn't be suprised if there are people out there that have put away a VP 5 liter in tha BA 6 if they find a crapped out one. But it wont happen when they find any kind of decent one the power and torque to the weight of 1380kgs or so is just way too much

[RavenLS1]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

My brothers EFII Fairmont was 171 FWKW stock.

may i ask where i would find this engine dyno you used on your brothers car???

[RavenLS1]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

There was a guy on here that owned a VP V6 manual and stock it was 125 RWKW.

Thats a joke right?lol.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by THE_RAVEN

may i ask where i would find this engine dyno you used on your brothers car???

You would have to ask him, It was strange that it was good enough to beat all Holden V6's and V6 supercharged engine's to 100. And to top that off 1 day he's mate bought a AU II Ghia 5lt and he belted it by half a car length on a freeway from 80kp/h. So he had it tested. Then added a sport system CAI EL 5 speed and LSD and it was more faster. He sold it last year to some lucky bugger. I was hoping that lucky bugger might be here?.

Originally Posted by THE_RAVEN

Thats a joke right?lol.

No he is a member here he said he sold it and moved to Victoria and the car followed him with it's new owner he said it's haunting him he thinks it was one of the best cars he had.

[ON_DUBS]

Originally Posted by cArSiK

So why open them?

becuase the thread title wasn't specific and it could of been something more interesting like a drag video or result

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

Drags cars have low tech chassis does that make them crap old and slow?.
The BA's chassis has nothing to do with a 1/4 drag. Because it's slower off the mark. It's heavier it will not launch harder or get though it's gears faster.
And the Torque in the 5lt is better used the BA's tall gearing won't help it.
And you can't guess all 5lt's have lost power do you forget the people that look after there cars and maintain them. The car can be as low tech and inferior as you wont it to be, But it will still get down the 1/4 faster time and time again. Now if it was a manual traction would be it's biggest issue but holden tuned these engines to be a touch softer on take off then give it full go just slightly higher in the rev range.
And many of the 5lt VP's came with IRS.
I know a bloke that would eat you up for considering his VP 5lt is slow and doesn't have the factory power. You should also consider some cars never have the factory claimed power the middle of the week built cars.
There was a guy on here that owned a VP V6 manual and stock it was 125 RWKW. My brothers EFII Fairmont was 171 FWKW stock.

Power and Torque argument, Sounds like the one with the I6 Alloytech.

Why mention drag cars that are built from the ground up to do what they do when talking about road cars? Its about as relevant as V8 Supercars, WRC or Formula 1 would be to this conversation. Drag cars are good at what they do, its what they're built to do, which is pretty much stating the obvious. They're not able to race well on a circuit though, are they? Just the same as a purpose built circuit car isn't going to drag race well.

The chassis has ALOT to do with how the car will get its power down. An inefficient chassis will not be able to put its power down to the road as well... engine, driveline, chassis, suspension... they all work as a team to make a car fast.

You people all seem to be forgetting that the cars in question are 2-4 years old (BA) and 12-14 years old (VP). The VP won't be producing its full 165kW 385Nm anymore, it won't be shifting as well as it did when it was new, the suspension will be worn, the chassis will show its wear & tear, nothing will work as well as it did back when the car was new. The BA is far, far, far younger. And more sophisticated. It would hose the VP.

[exrtnz]

That would be a total mismatch, the vp wouldnt stand a chance. The Ba xt would run rings around it. I suppose dreams are free! It would be close if the Ba was running on its rims.

[Professor Farnsworth]

anyone have figures of stock weight of an EB Ghia V8 ?

[5L]

vn-vp 3.8l v6's do not make 125 rwkw's i know people who have actually put their commodores on the rollers with cold air and cat back exhausts and the best one made 96 rwkw's, so this guy can take his hand off it.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Why mention drag cars that are built from the ground up to do what they do when talking about road cars? Its about as relevant as V8 Supercars, WRC or Formula 1 would be to this conversation. Drag cars are good at what they do, its what they're built to do, which is pretty much stating the obvious. They're not able to race well on a circuit though, are they? Just the same as a purpose built circuit car isn't going to drag race well.

The chassis has ALOT to do with how the car will get its power down. An inefficient chassis will not be able to put its power down to the road as well... engine, driveline, chassis, suspension... they all work as a team to make a car fast.

You people all seem to be forgetting that the cars in question are 2-4 years old (BA) and 12-14 years old (VP). The VP won't be producing its full 165kW 385Nm anymore, it won't be shifting as well as it did when it was new, the suspension will be worn, the chassis will show its wear & tear, nothing will work as well as it did back when the car was new. The BA is far, far, far younger. And more sophisticated. It would hose the VP.

It's a drag whats the big deal. Your talking like high tech and sophistication has anything to do with getting a car down a strip faster. It doesn't low tech can win the day as it's been proven many times with the Gen3 over the Boss 260. I'm telling you that a drag car is low tech in any form drag/road car.

You still aren't seeing FAQs here. You completely ignored that someone out there in this world might actually look after a car. Because it's 10-12 years old does not mean it's not in great condition. What the VP 5lt has going for it is a lack of high tech and sophistication, And that is what will keep it infront. It doesn't have restrictions like new cars do. And if it's down the 1/4 it really wont have to many traction problems in Auto Form.
i know a guy that has a VS II Berlina with only 40,000km it's in mint condition.
You can keep your car spot on if you look after it.

Take the Guy just above GreenFoam.. He owns a VP 5lt i have seen footage of his car and it fast. He also has a VN V6 that does just under 7 to 100. It's got over 300,000km i believe.

Originally Posted by fantz

anyone have figures of stock weight of an EB Ghia V8 ?

Maybe just under or just over 1500kg?.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

It's a drag whats the big deal. Your talking like high tech and sophistication has anything to do with getting a car down a strip faster. It doesn't low tech can win the day as it's been proven many times with the Gen3 over the Boss 260. I'm telling you that a drag car is low tech in any form drag/road car.

You still aren't seeing FAQs here. You completely ignored that someone out there in this world might actually look after a car. Because it's 10-12 years old does not mean it's not in great condition. What the VP 5lt has going for it is a lack of high tech and sophistication, And that is what will keep it infront. It doesn't have restrictions like new cars do. And if it's down the 1/4 it really wont have to many traction problems in Auto Form.
i know a guy that has a VS II Berlina with only 40,000km it's in mint condition.
You can keep your car spot on if you look after it.

Take the Guy just above GreenFoam.. He owns a VP 5lt i have seen footage of his car and it fast. He also has a VN V6 that does just under 7 to 100. It's got over 300,000km i believe.

What does GenIII LS1 vs Boss260's technical merits have to do with anything? I'm talking about chassis and suspension advancement and superiority, not mechanical. And FYI, the LS1 is argueably more advanced then the Boss260, being all-aluminium, much lighter, more compact, etc etc. There is no concrete proof that its valve actuation design is inferior to the other, as I am assuming your post hinted to.

And yes, you can keep a car spot on, but also think about it from a normal average joe perspective for a second... a decade+ year old, relatively cheap, V8 car isn't likely to be in the greatest of conditions, especially having gone through more then one owner, younger owners etc etc. Though possible, no denying, common sense leads me to believe that it would more likely then not be ailing.

Its lack of high tech and sophistication in the chassis/suspension areas are going against it moreso then anything. It has a dramatic weight advantage, but that alone doesn't make a faster car.

Look at the current Porsche 911 Turbo (353kW 680Nm, 1589kg) and Corvette Z06 (377kW 657Nm, 1418kg). The Corvette has a power/weight advantage (265.87kW/tonne vs 222.15kW/tonne) and torque/weight advantage (463.32Nm/tonne vs 427.94Nm/tonne) yet in all aspects of acceleration the 911 Turbo is faster. 3.2 sec to 100km/h vs 3.5, 11.4 1/4 mile vs 11.5 (note - the 911's times were done on ice, and I have scans of the Motortrend article for which said testing was done). Why? On paper it should lose, and if what you say about chassis & suspension sophistication being unimportant is true, the Z06 should win, plus the Turbo is AWD, a proven drag racing disadvantage. It wins for the same reason the BA would beat the VP, it is far more capable of making proper use of the power available to it, and putting it to the ground properly then the comparatively stone-age Z06 is. And its the same in the case of a newish Falcon against a decade plus old Commodore.

[The Monty]

Touche Steffo. But I still think the Buggatti Veyron would win hands down :

[XplosiveR6]

In the end who really cares, i would'nt care how fast the VP is, it will still be an unreliable, unsophisticated, unrefined 15 year old commodore. Why even compare the two?

[Kenaz]

Originally Posted by greenfoam

A VP 5 liter will run high 14's or 15 flat all day every day, any day.

Have you got timeslips to backup this claim? I ask because I have a very mild EL 5L that runs 14.8 and at Heathcote I have never had a stock (or near stock) VN/VP 5L get anywhere near it. They are usually mid 15 sec runners at best.

[rhysy_boi]

my mate has a VR V6 auto and he beat me in a drag in my BA I6 auto, only to 60km/h though as that was the speed limit.

Rhyso

[Professor Farnsworth]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

Maybe just under or just over 1500kg?.

Originally Posted by EBFalcs

VP Spec:
- 165kw
- 385Nm
- 0-100 / 7.2 sec
- 400m / 15.1 sec
- 1450kg

Reason i asked, was just curious how my car would perform if it were still stock. Those figures for the VP are pretty damn good for a factory car.

[Professor Farnsworth]

Originally Posted by Kenaz

Have you got timeslips to backup this claim? I ask because I have a very mild EL 5L that runs 14.8 and at Heathcote I have never had a stock (or near stock) VN/VP 5L get anywhere near it. They are usually mid 15 sec runners at best.

when are you at the strip next mate ? I wanna give the EB a run against something similar...

[eed-250]

A VP 5 liter will run high 14's or 15 flat all day every day, any day.

hahahahahahah biggest load of **** ive heard.

[EBFalcs]

Originally Posted by Steffo

What does GenIII LS1 vs Boss260's technical merits have to do with anything? I'm talking about chassis and suspension advancement and superiority, not mechanical. And FYI, the LS1 is argueably more advanced then the Boss260, being all-aluminium, much lighter, more compact, etc etc. There is no concrete proof that its valve actuation design is inferior to the other, as I am assuming your post hinted to.

And yes, you can keep a car spot on, but also think about it from a normal average joe perspective for a second... a decade+ year old, relatively cheap, V8 car isn't likely to be in the greatest of conditions, especially having gone through more then one owner, younger owners etc etc. Though possible, no denying, common sense leads me to believe that it would more likely then not be ailing.

Its lack of high tech and sophistication in the chassis/suspension areas are going against it moreso then anything. It has a dramatic weight advantage, but that alone doesn't make a faster car.

Look at the current Porsche 911 Turbo (353kW 680Nm, 1589kg) and Corvette Z06 (377kW 657Nm, 1418kg). The Corvette has a power/weight advantage (265.87kW/tonne vs 222.15kW/tonne) and torque/weight advantage (463.32Nm/tonne vs 427.94Nm/tonne) yet in all aspects of acceleration the 911 Turbo is faster. 3.2 sec to 100km/h vs 3.5, 11.4 1/4 mile vs 11.5 (note - the 911's times were done on ice, and I have scans of the Motortrend article for which said testing was done). Why? On paper it should lose, and if what you say about chassis & suspension sophistication being unimportant is true, the Z06 should win, plus the Turbo is AWD, a proven drag racing disadvantage. It wins for the same reason the BA would beat the VP, it is far more capable of making proper use of the power available to it, and putting it to the ground properly then the comparatively stone-age Z06 is. And its the same in the case of a newish Falcon against a decade plus old Commodore.

if were going to compare the average joes VP 5L to the average joes BA XT, not factory vs factory, then the VP will kill it because about 70% of them have headers an exhaust CAI, and big leads. which about 5% of BA XT's would have that.

so the average VP on the street would kill the average BA.