drive.com.au at it again! - Page 2

Redrum · 08-09-2006, 08:02 PM

I stopped reading when they mentioned torque figures on turbo. These people claim to be motoring journalists when they simply cannot get a simple figure, quoted on internet, correct.

Drive.com.au in my humble opinion is electronic defication.

MoreHPformyXR6 · 08-09-2006, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HSE2

When the BA was launched I wrote a review where I stated that the steering had become too sensitive for the chassis especially in the XT. Under some circumstances it can make the rear of the car feel disassociated to the front. Apart from one journo no one else commented much about it until now. The reason I bring this up is the as the sport variants don't suffer as much as the lower models yet last week the lower models were tested and this directness wasn't comment on.

:

I have read with the BA if you through it into a corner at highway speed the backend can feel very sensitive (almost over sensitive) I have experienced the feeling they describe to a mild degree nothing that is over powering or scary though. Is this the same for the BF also? Im assuming's its more so in the XT due to smaller rubber & a tad higher.

blackahcdx · 08-09-2006, 08:26 PM

OMG you girls are getting your damn g-strings in a knot over some ****y little review.

WHO CARES?!

you know (or like to think, what ever the case may be :p ) that your car is as good or better.

I agree that drive.com.au isn't the best site out there, some of their stuff is quiet dodgy infact!

but sometimes i think some ppl here take this all to seriously, its not like they killed your mother.

Or is it? :p

xdclevo · 08-09-2006, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drive.com

Riding on massive 19-inch wheels with low-profile tyres and wearing a front spoiler that appears designed for a race track, not the outback, it was tipped to be the problem child

Makes you wonder how the Holden with a front spoiler that appears to be designed for a race track could survive ruts big enough to harpoon a transmission pan. What a load of poo.

blue terra · 08-09-2006, 08:34 PM

I liked the fact they are testing sports cars yet the comodore sits 100mm higher so theoretically it would clear more bumps with ease and would sit as high as a territory. The pricing they gave the ssv was the same price as the xr8 yet the xr8 the only option you need to tick is for the fluffy dice to be put on the rear view mirror. The SS bumper is the love child of an astra & vectra on roids, the falcon has been around for 4 years and ONLY now are holden matching features and equipment levels. So bravo drive lets see what next week's work experience kid comes up with

blackahcdx · 08-09-2006, 08:46 PM

Hmmm, look at this great Ford "quality" :p

Wonder how that happened?!

**Silver Ghia** · 08-09-2006, 08:51 PM

Perhaps in future Ford should be more selective in who they provide cars to for testing, and closely review test or comparison plans to ensure level playing field/appropriateness before providing a car to the reviewers.

There appears to be no control at present over reviews written by 'testers'. They can write anything, and readers would believe them.

Over the years I have learnt to try ignore what any motoring writers write, as they generally try to make their story more sensational than what it is really, and tend to give readers distorted impressions and comparisons of the cars being tested.

exrtnz · 08-09-2006, 08:52 PM

Ive never seen such a baised article on vehicles, just shows what an idiot this person is. So hes saying that if the holden had hit those chunks of clay at 80kph nothing would have happened. Some of the reporters are s h i t and this is one of them, very few are good , this is worst one ive seen.

MITCHAY · 08-09-2006, 09:00 PM

Why the hell bother even reading these things? If the Holden boys lose they reckon it's bias to Ford, if Ford boys lose they are bias to Holden. Seriously is anyone going to actually buy a car based on a review? Is the result really going to deter you from test driving a particular model?

VSSII · 08-09-2006, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Why the hell bother even reading these things? If the Holden boys lose they reckon it's bias to Ford, if Ford boys lose they are bias to Holden. Seriously is anyone going to actually buy a car based on a review? Is the result really going to deter you from test driving a particular model?

These days it appears it's what keeps this forum going!

stevz · 08-09-2006, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davro_xr6

Could the fact they crashed the falcons be due to the fact that they're used to driving homo-doors and aren't used to a superior car with more power??

And could the wholly biased review be based on the fact the holden financially back drive.com?? Hmmmmm - the aussie public ain't stupid...

The way I see it - with the introduction of the VE, the homo-door boys are only playing catch up - they always have been, and will continue to do so with the introduction of ford's new number in a year or so. In my opinion they started to play the catch up game when ford brought out the beastie Phase 3 GTho... Although I am ford biased, I can still appreciate a good car, and from what I have seen of the cars Holden have produced over the last 6-8 years, they are a far cry from a good car - unless of course someone decides to put $10k of aftermarket equipment under the hood... Even with the VL they had to use a skyline motor to make the car any good... And even still today, in the V8 supercars, there's ford components in engine and driveline... Sorry, just got me a little stirred up after the article, as I'm sure it did with others...

This ^ and the one below have got to be amongst the worst loads of one eyed nonsense I have ever had the misfortune of reading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

Drive has got to be the biggest pile of crap ever. The fact that idiots like Joshua Dowling draw breath in this world sickens me. The reason he found the commodore so comfortable was because he had the cushioning of wads of hundred dollar bills in his back pocket. This is the exact same sort of trash that was printed about the 380 and how superior it was to the ford. Net result; Mitsubishi will close its Australian plant and ditch the 380 entirely.
The fact that these idiots are paid to drive cars is equally offensive, and crashing whilst thrashing two cars because the drivers love holden is an absolute farce. Sales figures will tell the story, and thankfully Toyota are going to kill Holden in the fleet deals. Then where will Holden be? With over 70% of the VZ selling to fleets, what market are they now going to occupy? Most fords are sold to private buyers, and hopefully Ford will discount to smash Holden. Billion dollar baby?
More like Billion dollar ***** up.
BTW, with their reference to plastic as being somewhat inferior, maybe they should take a closer look at the amount of plastic used by Holden. Whilst at it, look where the Holden plastic comes from ahem Korea ahem.
Why don't they take their BA front, 380 rear, camry sides copying asses and do a parent company suicide dive into receivership.

Holden mean a really great deal to Korea, and Sweet FA to Australia.

Such a bitter, twisted and depressed person you are. You really need to get out more. Try some counselling maybe?
Oh and regarding your fleet vs private sales, maybe you should get your facts straight http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=63495

Quote:

But the Commodore's lack of appeal to private buyers is nothing compared with Ford's Falcon. Last year it was the No. 2 selling vehicle in the country but it doesn't even rate in the top 15 favourites among private buyers.

Quote:

The figures reveal that 88 per cent of Falcon buyers are fleet customers, compared with 81 per cent for Commodore

Grechie · 09-09-2006, 04:48 AM

someone email drive.com.au again with a complaint !

ivorya · 09-09-2006, 06:27 AM

What goes around comes around guys.... Look they have to talk up the new Falididore, if they didn't they wouldn't be doing there job. I'm sure the head honchos of FORD aren't to worried about these guys as it'll be sparking more interest in the large car market which is in the crappers at the moment. Hopefully the public will make up their own mind by driving both cars. I'm sure when Orion comes out, the comparo will be the Falcon kicks its ***..... but i guess we're going to have to expect the public bashing for a while.

ltd · 09-09-2006, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevz

This ^ and the one below have got to be amongst the worst loads of one eyed nonsense I have ever had the misfortune of reading.

Such a bitter, twisted and depressed person you are. You really need to get out more. Try some counselling maybe?
Oh and regarding your fleet vs private sales, maybe you should get your facts straight http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=63495

The fleet figures that you reference here are from 2002. That was also the time when Ford was number 2 in terms of total car sales in oz and holden was 3. Ford had 12.7% marketshare and holden has 12.6. That all changed with revisions by holden in pricing and model in order to attract fleet sales. Fleet sales used to account for 53% in 2002 for holden and ford, now it is around 40%. They are both selling more cars than in 2002. So where does this put your 88%?

Furthermore, since the price of oil has risen over 600% since 2001 Holden have discounted very heavily for the fleet market. And the figures you speak of are from drive.com.au which as this post has already highlighted is very questionable. They even elude to the figures not being available to the public yet because a so called journo says that this is the way things are, you believe them. Whatever floats your boat.

BTW, even based on your assertion that ford sell more to fleets, they still have more prospect for sales based on fuel consumption alone. The fact is that Holden have either stayed the same or increased fuel consumption depending on the model, and with the new camry, as well as aurion on the way, fuel consumption will be a big factor in determining sales. Ford have pre-empted this and as such have already made significant fuel savings. Holden have not done anything in this area.

So, if all you can seem to do is come onto a ford forum and in some obsequious way try and defend Holden (judging by most of your posts), then I submit that you are the one who needs a life. Disappear to LS1 and peddle your wares amongst your peers.

As for counselling, I don't need it because I drive fords. I'm happy with my lot in life and quite frankly, I am far too successful to bother with someone who often makes his opinions heard based purely on some primal emotion of loving Holden. If you love it, good for you. I'm not on a Holden forum bagging the hell out of Holden; I'm on a ford forum making my opinions heard from a business perspective. Quite frankly, if you're as intelligent as you seem to think you are, ask yourself why Holden has tried to sully the waters to convince people their car is cheaper. Ask yourself which other business brings in a new model and lowers the price substantially?

I'd suggest that you take your Oedipus complex to the nearest psychiatrist and ask yourself why you feel the need to habitually **** people off. To think I would even enter a battle of wit with an unarmed man like yourself is laughable - especially when your arguement is entirely based on 4 year old data from a dubious source.

ltd · 09-09-2006, 07:52 AM

Another thing stevez, have a look at drive.com.au, every second article is about how good Holden are. Do you not think that there is such a thing as cheque book journalism going on here? With a parent company requiring federal government assistance and being told to get stuffed by Delphi, do you not think that marketing a vehicle by any and all means possible will not translate to sales?

Looking at the picture above of the two xr's and the holden I have now changed my opinion on the ve. I hate it. It looks far too awkward and looks as though it is a falcon that has been squeezed at the sides to make it narrower and taller. Honestly, compare the two vehicles on either side then look at the holden. Korean crap at its finest. They've even put it ahead of the two fords to make it look bigger and it still looks like a vectra. Look at the blokes driving all 3. One of them looks like he's leaning into the passenger area. Now I suppose we'll hear about Holden being smaller and therefore more efficient. And don't even get me started on the chock-knob in the Stone age Holden commercial. Billion dollar baby? More like billion dollar botch job biotch.

Ruger · 09-09-2006, 08:00 AM

amen to that my friend!

FLYXR6 · 09-09-2006, 09:06 AM

I think that about covers holden lovers bashing ford drivers on there own website!!!!!

FLYXR6 · 09-09-2006, 09:07 AM

how do they say it??

Checkmate!!!!!

bwahahahahahah

**PepeLePew** · 09-09-2006, 10:03 AM

Some silly comments from both sides of the camp....

Like the thread on ls1, this whole article just needs ignored. Its 10% factual, 90% drivel.

DanielXR8 · 09-09-2006, 10:35 AM

Not a shining piece or journalism, but certainly not the worse and the outcome that a brand new car would beat a car designed in 1998 and revised in 2002 is hardly surprising.

To be fair to drive.com I await the howls of complaint from this forum if they dare to rate the new Orion Falcon as being good or better then a Commodore. Presumably the accusation will be that Ford are paying for their stories.

Really guys, get over it.

Dan

SSBUB · 09-09-2006, 11:15 AM

ltd you have a rather large chip on your shoulder and i think its obvious that your deep seated hate for holden is because they have had the wood over ford for years ith 90% of its models.
As someone else said, its just a comparo, Orion will be given good reviews over the VE in due time - in the mean time i reccomend a weekend away at a health spa to try and dim that vein thats throbbing in your jugular.

ef_classic · 09-09-2006, 11:36 AM

In relation to that picture with the 2 fords and 1 holden, look at the xr6t where they hit a lump of clay.
It must have been a decent mound of clay to do that, and a stupid driver to not try and dodge it.

Its a sad day for Holden if the outcome was persuaded in the form of money from GM Holden, but would not surprise me.

FLYXR6 · 09-09-2006, 12:13 PM

i think people are missing ltd point..... some on eon here tried to bull**** their way through an argument with stats... all he did was point out tht the stats were 4 yrs old and wrong......

As for the story who cares.. i'm more upset that they trashed to lovely XR's.

AUIII XR8 MAN · 09-09-2006, 12:34 PM

It should of had at the top "The following is a pay presentation"

ltd · 09-09-2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSBUB

ltd you have a rather large chip on your shoulder and i think its obvious that your deep seated hate for holden is because they have had the wood over ford for years ith 90% of its models.
As someone else said, its just a comparo, Orion will be given good reviews over the VE in due time - in the mean time i reccomend a weekend away at a health spa to try and dim that vein thats throbbing in your jugular.

SSBUB, I couldn't really care about the comparison.
I'd be more worried if Holden failed. What got my ire is someone telling me that I am wrong with botched statistics. On top of that, to tell me to seek counselling when the argument presented is flawed and unjustified also tends to grate in a way that would be akin to me espousing ford nonsense on LS1. Frankly, I do not have to justify myself to anyone but the mods of this site and calling me either directly or indirectly a liar is not going to elicit a nice response.

In relation to chequebook journalism, it is a wide known fact that motoring companies will offer favours either by way of money or vehicles to provoke a favourable response to their new model vehicles. The saturation coverage given to Holden by the boys at drive and cars guide is enough to warrant at least one person raising a question about their supposed impartiality.

As for having a chip on my shoulder, you can choose whatever cliché you like but the fact remains that I am on a ford site and I am defending fords reputation against two paid so called journalists who took pride in thrashing the oppositions car to breaking point and then wrote a nonsensical bile inducing load of crap about it.

That aside I have complimented Holden in many of my posts, even though I do not like Holden on many levels, most importantly experience. Of the two Holdens I have owned (one very briefly) I have had nothing but hyped up salesmanship and non-existent service. One caprice I had went through 3 gen 3 engines and still was drinking gallons of oil per month when I finally got rid of it. Assurances that it was a one off and they would rectify the situation with a heavily discounted new one and the same problems occurred. The fact that they failed on every level to produce a satisfying outcome to my woes and only gave me satisfaction upon the filing of a claim against them spoke volumes to me about their ethics as a company and the products they sell. For me it was no great hassle, I was able to afford action against them but what bothers me is that their blasé attitude may be affecting many other owners with limited resources.

Anyway, many people on this site have had problems with ford and I don't deride them in an attempt to minimise their problems. In many instances on this site, there has been genuine concern by most members and helpful suggestions. What is wrong though is Holden owners coming here with no other intent than to rubbish Ford. Again, I do not partake in any discussions on LS1 or any Holden site as that would be disingenuous of me to do so and quite frankly, is a complete and utter waste of time. Those who think they can walk into a Ford club and convert everyone to Holden and vice versa are deluding themselves.

Finally, in my opinion Ford are not perfect by any measure, but they are a damn sight better than Holden who promote in my opinion what has been an inferior product, but with a massive emphasis on marketing. Feel free to disagree, I don't expect everyone to agree with me on anything - and the fact that you may disagree with me in no way lessens my opinion of you. But tell me I need counselling for a view that means little or nothing to anyone else then I will defend myself.

SunDrifter · 09-09-2006, 01:19 PM

^^^ Somebody buy this man a beer. I laughed when i saw some of these comments leveled against ltd. If you're going to try and bag somebody, at least do a little research, like slickholden does.

FLYXR6 · 09-09-2006, 01:29 PM

I still to this day do not understand why people who adore holdens so much spend so much time in a ford website....... and then get upset when a holden biased article is flamed on said website.

As said before it was a badly conducted article. There were very little trip stats in the article ie fuel used to road conditions ( flat or hilly) for either car! Also my argument isn't that holdens were made to shine in the article, that i don't care it was that for a website that considers it self the forfront of automotive info on new models it was very poorly written. There was no fact involved, just alot of opinions. If i wanted to hear about opinions on new models i would head down to the local maccas at 2 in the morning and listen to all the "p" platers drivel. Instead we (drives and motor enthusiastes alike) want to read a clear and constructive article that shows both the weak and strong points of both cars, not " the falcons barely made it home so they must be crap".

I'll probably get flamed for this but yes the new SS-V suspension is far superiour to the fords, It should be its 4 years younger than it. But saying that a car that drifts in the rear is crap isn't a constructive comment. I like the fact that my rear end will step up when planting it on a hwy corner, it leads to a little oversteer which i like. See that was a personal thing. To say that because one car does it and another doesn't so the first must be **** isn't an comparison. when it comes to handling of a car you cannot compare the two, as different people have different tastes. Yes you can compare a car on price, features, acceleration, fuel usage and many others, but saying that a car is crap because the k n o b behind the wheel doesn't know how to operate the hoop with badge on it in front of him and plows into a clay mountain that by the looks of the damage in the pic would have flipped a 4wd isn't a constructive argument. The guys at drive would have been better calling it what it was a ROAD TRIP. No comparison between the cars should have been made by people who have no experience or knowledge on how to do so correctly.

As far as having a crack at someone for defending a ford...... well this is a ford site remember? Ford lovers hang here. Not holdens!!! and if you wish to go ahead and attack people (forum members) because they posted an opinion then we may as well get rid of freedom of speech and close this site down.

i pity the

stevz · 09-09-2006, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

The fleet figures that you reference here are from 2002.

If you read the article properly, you will see that they are not 2002 figures, they are simply comparing the figures with 2002 figures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

Furthermore, since the price of oil has risen over 600% since 2001 Holden have discounted very heavily for the fleet market.

And I suppose Ford have been selling to fleets at RRP?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

So, if all you can seem to do is come onto a ford forum and in some obsequious way try and defend Holden (judging by most of your posts), then I submit that you are the one who needs a life. Disappear to LS1 and peddle your wares amongst your peers.
As for counselling, I don't need it because I drive fords. I'm happy with my lot in life and quite frankly, I am far too successful to bother with someone who often makes his opinions heard based purely on some primal emotion of loving Holden. If you love it, good for you. I'm not on a Holden forum bagging the hell out of Holden; I'm on a ford forum making my opinions heard from a business perspective. Quite frankly, if you're as intelligent as you seem to think you are, ask yourself why Holden has tried to sully the waters to convince people their car is cheaper. Ask yourself which other business brings in a new model and lowers the price substantially?.

I am not defending Holden or drive.com.au or anyone, but rather speaking out against your ridiculous and extreme views. I find it strange that someone that claims they are so highly intelligent and successfull can sprout so much crap. I don't drive a Holden, I drive a Nissan and a Subaru, so therefore I am a fence sitter and have a clear and unbiased view of both sides. In this instance I have found your comments to be ridiculous, unfounded and extremist, so I have voiced my opinion against it, simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

Another thing stevez, have a look at drive.com.au, every second article is about how good Holden are. Do you not think that there is such a thing as cheque book journalism going on here? With a parent company requiring federal government assistance and being told to get stuffed by Delphi, do you not think that marketing a vehicle by any and all means possible will not translate to sales?
Looking at the picture above of the two xr's and the holden I have now changed my opinion on the ve. I hate it. It looks far too awkward and looks as though it is a falcon that has been squeezed at the sides to make it narrower and taller. Honestly, compare the two vehicles on either side then look at the holden. Korean crap at its finest. They've even put it ahead of the two fords to make it look bigger and it still looks like a vectra. Look at the blokes driving all 3. One of them looks like he's leaning into the passenger area. Now I suppose we'll hear about Holden being smaller and therefore more efficient. And don't even get me started on the chock-knob in the Stone age Holden commercial. Billion dollar baby? More like billion dollar botch job biotch.

The launch of the VE is a major milestone for the auto industry here. What do you expect, a couple of small articles?
So when Ford launch the Orion in 08 and jounos start raving about it, will that mean they have had their pockets lined by cash from Ford? Or will you be modifying your opinions to suit yourself?
Ford has done extremely well with the BA/BF no doubt about it, it is still a great car in it's own right, however if you can't take your blinkers off and admit that Holden has done an exceptional job with the VE and that it is a very good car, then you have issues.

ltd · 09-09-2006, 02:17 PM

So by claiming you are a fence sitter makes it so does it. All of your recent posts have been pro holden propoganda so I'll allow other forum members to form an informed judgement.

If you find my opinions extremist then guess what, you're going to find many others on this site who have similar views. The fact that you also find my opinions ridiculous only serves to prove your bias. As you mentioned, you drive a nissan and a subaru but you can espouse how wonderful a job holden did with the ve and go further to say that I have issues if I don't agree with you.
I'm so sorry, I knew the world revolved around the sun but I must have been mistaken as it obviously revolves around you. I'll call NASA and update them that the sun is now called stevz.

Another thing, the motoring rags did not fall all over the BA when it was released, a lot of them actually compared it to Holden and always found Holden in favour; and they'll definately not have as much press about the orion as so many of the journo's have admittedly aligned themselves with Holden.

If you want to align yourself with so called statistics that are from the very people who have made the proclamation of holden being a demi god, then so be it. Contrarily though, I'm sure I could find statistics that would conclusively prove that you are indeed an holden stooge. But I wouldn't do that because what weight could you put on statistics that are made up like in the drive article or from a rather questionable source? Obviously in your case you'd base your arguement on it but I choose not to, as others would be able to see the holes in it from a mile away.

"however if you can't take your blinkers off and admit that Holden has done an exceptional job with the VE and that it is a very good car, then you have issues"
Ha ha ha ha.

HSE2 · 09-09-2006, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b2tf

Not neccesary to post the entire story - point remains that the choice of terain to put ANY of those cars on (yes, even the Holden) was just absurd.

I don’t agree with this. It’s the sort of road that many would expect to encounter while driving around this big beautiful country. The quality of driving however. Well that does pose some questions.

The Xr8 was probably just bad luck, but honestly the result with this car was always going to be exactly like it was. Last. It’s not the journos fault that Ford have basically sat still in areas that performance sport sedans are judged. I can't remember a time when Ford has done so for as long.

I will be very surprised if any comparison paints a different picture for this car. As an Xr8 owner its treatment makes my blood boil, but that is the reality at Fords hand.

The Xr6T, well that’s another matter. It is without question the best Ford car in the test and they admit that, but look at the damage on the spoiler. That’s not bad luck that driver incompetence. The comments about the Ford mirrors just reinforce this driving deficiency on their part and really how much bigger are the VE mirrors anyway? They look the same as VZ to me.

They claim the steering and the price of the T were its worst offences. Well I guess the steering feel is subjective enough that it might have merit. Unless the T has changed from the last time I drove one I think it’s a nothing comment. The price however is a huge lump to swallow. The car on test is the SSV not the SS that they start sprouting about. The appointments and features aren't insignificant. To even suggest the XR6T has price considerations against the cars on test is really stretching the bounds of credibility.

If they want to go down this route lets have a real look at the running costs. Holden have to use the much dearer fuel to achieve their economy and performance levels. Not only are they going to use slightly more but it will cost slightly more as well. Conversely let’s see how the Holden’s go using the lower octane fuel.

I sincerely hope the Journo's in this country have the balls to put the real questions to Holden and HSV and compare the cars that should be compared. Don't let Ford off the hook by using the turbo cars. Ask HSV to explain the change to DIN. Ask HSV to quantify "slightly lower" economy and performance when using the same fuel as the Fords or better still test it.

I guess the worrying aspect from a Holden perspective is the onset of drive train back lash. It’s the first time I have seen a review comment on it from a Holden perspective. On our side we know how bad this condition can be. Holden have always had related issues but not the exact one that was reported on this test. The accuracy of the review not withstanding, it sounds an alarm bell on an area that will need watching, especially for Ford people looking for a fix with their own Falcon drive line dramas.

One would expect that the cars that finished one two and three in PCoTY will account well for themselves. Basically from Day one of Ve release the SS and the SSV have been the stars of the range. It’s safe to think given the disparity on the Ford side between the reviews regarding 6 v 8 that our V8 cars are in for a tough time against the direct rivals. While we all knew the XT and the XR6 would match up well against Omega and SV6 conversely all indicators suggest the interest in the V8 comparisons will merely be a question of how far for Holden/HSV. Anything less then a mile should be considered a tremendous achievement. I am tipping a SSV or R8 best car result and "if" HSV have MRC right a landslide victory for GTS.

The interest will then be to see if F6 can bring the equation back to the blue side. It has plenty going for it and has potential to cause an upset but regardless of individual results the value in Journalism is to provide the consumer with information. Doesn’t always have to be agreeable or accurate in every sense to be valuable. Use it as a tool to re enforce or disprove concerns. Take the criticism on board and look for it during the test drive as an aid to help determine individual preferences.