FG X, The Last EVER Falcon - Picture & Discussion Thread

[Alan D Segal]

Originally Posted by lucas2

I think the XR8 needs to be 335...335 sounds a lot better than 315, I'm sure prospective buyers tossing up between an SS(v) or an XR8 would be more swayed by the 335.

They'd probably be more swayed by a 351, a 375 or a 400 too. All 300 of them.

[stevefreestyle]

Originally Posted by Alan D Segal

Has Ford actually confirmed that they did calibrate the DSC for the wider rear tyres, or is that an assumption? (I'm not being ****y about it, I just might have missed it).

They'd only save money (and we don't know how much that is) reusing the R Spec calibration if the XR8 is reusing the same suspension too.

Basically if they do change DSC settings between different models and option packs (and I'm as yet not convinced they do) then any brake, suspension, transmission/driveline and engine differences would need it to be recalibrated. So the two options are:

1. Recalibration isn't expensive and they do it for every change.
2. Recalibration is too expensive and the XR8 is just a GT or a GT Rspec with a different badge, and it doesn't matter what wheels or suspension or motor it comes with because the tune is the same.

That's basically my point, DSC Calibration is expensive, and is factored on power/Torque input, suspension & shock settings and of course tyre specs (& width). Ford have already calibrated the 275s with the R-Spec settings for the 335 & 351, and as the 315 & 335 are the same engine (exc for the tune) - and therefore same production cost, so why go to the extra Calibration expense of using a lesser 315 kw tune ?

[stevefreestyle]

Originally Posted by Smoke Pursuit

They are actually 275 tyres.. not 375... Geeeze.

Also there is no calibration for Brembos on the 315 motor.

Thanks, ok course its 275....I think I was going cross eyed - or too much time on the Mustang Forum !

[MAD]

Originally Posted by stevefreestyle

That's basically my point, DSC Calibration is expensive, and is factored on power/Torque input, suspension & shock settings and of course tyre specs (& width). Ford have already calibrated the 275s with the R-Spec settings for the 335 & 351, and as the 315 & 335 are the same engine (exc for the tune) - and therefore same production cost, so why go to the extra Calibration expense of using a lesser 315 kw tune ?

I understand this thought process, but the DSC is also calibrated for all types of surfaces and varying grip of those surfaces.

Surely that covers any tyre size/brand/quality issues.


I guess what I'm saying here is that the tyres probably do not pose as big of an issue with DSC as it is coming across.

Weight wouldn't even play a huge part as it is variable between 'skinny driver only' to '4 fat passengers and a boot full of camping gear'.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Moose

Not sure if this has already been discussed but while dropping off my new plates for my GTF at my dealer, I did discuss the new XR8. He informed me that they will be 315kW with standard Brembo's running the GT wheels. couldn't tell me anymore, will be interesting to see.

It's quite funny how some of these muppet salesmen just make things up.

He must of read that on the internet, because he's wrong !

[Bobman]

Salesmen (and most dealerships) have little clue about the running of Ford and their cars.

Even now, some dealers don't know that cruise control can be enabled via WDS.

Hopefully the yank Fords sell poorly and these poor-performing dealers close quickly!

[au2000]

Originally Posted by Elks

Very cool but that's a promo car. There will only be one of them.

Hmmm so I wonder where the nsw r spec is off too?

[PepeLePew]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

It's quite funny how some of these muppet salesmen just make things up.

He must of read that on the internet, because he's wrong !

And once again with this post, the question is solved, closed and we can move onto more interesting topics...

[Dissgrace]

Originally Posted by au2000

Hmmm so I wonder where the nsw r spec is off too?

Police museum

[rancidpunx]

NSW RSpec was number 150 to celebrate the 150th anniversary, then tuned to 400rwkw. Off to the museum though.

Amusing that they have used someone else to tinker with the new GT. I look forward to to seeing what DJR do with it.

[PG2]

Originally Posted by Dissgrace

Police museum

I wonder if anyone will get to drive it before it goes there?

[AUS GRUNT]

Originally Posted by au2000

Hmmm so I wonder where the nsw r spec is off too?

Well...they blew up that r-spec after running E-10 fuel in it i don't know if they got it rebuilt it or what.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Alan D Segal

Has Ford actually confirmed that they did calibrate the DSC for the wider rear tyres, or is that an assumption? (I'm not being ****y about it, I just might have missed it).

They'd only save money (and we don't know how much that is) reusing the R Spec calibration if the XR8 is reusing the same suspension too.

Basically if they do change DSC settings between different models and option packs (and I'm as yet not convinced they do) then any brake, suspension, transmission/driveline and engine differences would need it to be recalibrated. So the two options are:

1. Recalibration isn't expensive and they do it for every change.
2. Recalibration is too expensive and the XR8 is just a GT or a GT Rspec with a different badge, and it doesn't matter what wheels or suspension or motor it comes with because the tune is the same.

DSC has to be recalibrated for different tyre sizes, and suspension changes. And it doesn't come cheap. R spec has it's own DSC calibration.

Originally Posted by MAD

I understand this thought process, but the DSC is also calibrated for all types of surfaces and varying grip of those surfaces.

Surely that covers any tyre size/brand/quality issues.


I guess what I'm saying here is that the tyres probably do not pose as big of an issue with DSC as it is coming across.

Weight wouldn't even play a huge part as it is variable between 'skinny driver only' to '4 fat passengers and a boot full of camping gear'.

At one point you couldn't get 19's with LPi as they had no DSC calibration for it, so they were all fitted with 18's. Hence no XR luxury pack was available with LPi as it came with 19's. They did end up doing it though afaik.

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by stevefreestyle

That's basically my point, DSC Calibration is expensive, and is factored on power/Torque input, suspension & shock settings and of course tyre specs (& width). Ford have already calibrated the 275s with the R-Spec settings for the 335 & 351, and as the 315 & 335 are the same engine (exc for the tune) - and therefore same production cost, so why go to the extra Calibration expense of using a lesser 315 kw tune ?

Originally Posted by MAD

I understand this thought process, but the DSC is also calibrated for all types of surfaces and varying grip of those surfaces.
Surely that covers any tyre size/brand/quality issues.
I guess what I'm saying here is that the tyres probably do not pose as big of an issue with DSC as it is coming across.
Weight wouldn't even play a huge part as it is variable between 'skinny driver only' to '4 fat passengers and a boot full of camping gear'.

My understanding is that DSC is controlled by the ABS computer (as is ABS & TCS)... it takes inputs from the ABS sensors (wheel speed), SAS (Steering Angle Sensor for front wheel direction) & YRS (Yaw Rate Sensor which is basically a G-force meter) and works in conjunction with the PCM inputs to constantly monitor what the vehicle is doing at any given time.

Mathematical equations are calculated by the ABS/TCS/DSC computer based on known parameters which have been programmed in. Should one of those parameters be physically altered (say.. tyre size)... but not in the computer... then the calculations the computer is making won't match the inputs it's receiving... and it will either not act as well as it should.. or shut down until someone tells it what's going on ! So.. If the overall diameter of the tyre has changed (outside of the "known" normal tyre wear parameters programmed in)... then the actual wheel speed, at a given trans output shaft speed, will not match what the computer is expecting to see. Same goes for tyre wall height. For example... a car with say 65 series tyres, will corner differently to a car with 35 series tyres... if the YRS inputs have been programmed in to recognise the amount of Yaw from a 35 series tyre when the car is cornering at "this" speed with "that much" steering angle... and then you go and fit 65 series tyres (same OD for the sake of the eg... then the car will experience much more Yaw (on the same corner at the same speed) as the side walls have much more flex. More steering lock will be required to complete the turn.... the input signals the computer is receiving will again be outside it's "known" parameters... and it will asume there is something wrong. If it can't "control" the situation back to withing "known" parameters... it will shut down.

You can resolve some of the issues by changing the parameters in the computer. (ie: change your wheel/tyres on the car... also change the settings in the computer to match). This will then allow the computer to make the correct calculations etc.

I admit.. these are just a couple of very basic explanations... but I hope it helps you to get your head around it a bit !??

The DSC programming is very complex... and highly skilled Engineers spend many hours writing the programming and then testing to fine tune everything ! Yes they make allowances for things like weight etc... but the computer cant measure the actual weight perse'.... the system can only be programmed to recognise the variance in say Yaw (weight shift) when the car is cornering with one person, empty... or 5 people, fully laden (amongst other things) So tyre size is only one thing amongst many things it takes into account.... as it is constantly monitoring all inputs against all "known" parameters, many many times per second. Make a physical change that stays within all of those parameters... the system should be ok. Make a physical change that can/does step outside them... the system won't be able to calculate for it. Match that physical change by altering the set parameters in the computer also... theoretically, it will work again as it should. Can that be done easily ?? Some things can (they may already be allowed for)... others need the highly skilled Engineers spending many hours writing the programming etc.

Hope this made some sense !!??

Dhru

[b0son]

Originally Posted by stevefreestyle

You are assuming No Fleet discounts on the XR8 (no evidence)...and presumably assuming because of limited production due to hand built engines perhaps?

If its limited production, and retail demand is high (as I would expect), it would make little business sense to be selling them at a significant discount. I'd be surprised if many of them find their way to HWP.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Gothefalcon

Mathematical equations are calculated by the ABS/TCS/DSC computer based on known parameters which have been programmed in. Should one of those parameters be physically altered (say.. tyre size)... but not in the computer... then the calculations the computer is making won't match the inputs it's receiving

At the end of the day, all tyre size does is determine grip. If the system is capable of coping with variations in road surface grip (eg. cold, damp, etc), it should be able to cope with variation in tyre grip (eg. tyre size).

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by b0son

At the end of the day, all tyre size does is determine grip. If the system is capable of coping with variations in road surface grip (eg. cold, damp, etc), it should be able to cope with variation in tyre grip (eg. tyre size).

Not quite... the overall diameter (OD) of say a 245/35/19 = 654.1mm. A 275/35/19 = 675.1mm. A difference of 21mm (larger). A 275/30/19 = 647.6. A difference of -6.5mm (smaller). If you have different sized tyres front to rear... and the ODs are different... you will get different wheel speed readings front to rear. (a smaller dia tyre will spin faster/do more revolutions to go the same distance as a larger dia tyre) simillarly.. the taller the wall height is of the tyre.. the more it will flex when cornering.. producing different Yaw rates in the car as you corner, a difference which increases with increases in road speed. If the tyre size settings in the computer have not been altered to match... then it's not programmed to recognise the difference is ok... cant calculate for it.. therefore can't operate the way it should.
DSC can't see if the road is cold or wet etc... it relies on how the car acts, based purely on the calculations from all the input readings matching what is programmed into it. A very simple eg: wheel speed of "this" + steering angle of "that", should = a yaw rate of "this"... Do all these things calculate to match what It's been told to look for? (what's programmed in)... if ans. = "Yep!" and it won't intervene. However if ans. = "Nup!" it will intervene... and if that doesn't work to bring things back to what it knows... it will assume there is a problem with something in the system... and shut down, bringing all the lights up on the dash to let you know it needs something repaired.
It's so....o much more complex than this tho... it's a highly sophisticated system ! The Dude's that develop systems like this are Scientists IMPO... and should be applauded for what they do !

D

[stevefreestyle]

Originally Posted by b0son

If its limited production, and retail demand is high (as I would expect), it would make little business sense to be selling them at a significant discount. I'd be surprised if many of them find their way to HWP.

As has been previously stated, XR8s from the AUII 220 have always been limited production ie limited (hand made) production engines in the same way the current 335 is built, yet that did not stop the Police / HWP buying heaps of them (until the FG - with its crap brakes).

There are also Strategic Marketing Benefits for Ford with a HWP XR8. As incompetent and disconnected as Ford Marketing have been, even they could not fail to recognise the powerful marketing benefits gained by garnering solid Street Credibility from having the XR8 as the HWP "vehicle of choice".

[b0son]

The difference between then and now is Ford are bleeding cash on this car, and with only a relatively short time in the market before its gone forever, there's little to be gained from the exposure. Ultimately, I'm assuming this model will be walking out of showrooms at close to RRP with little/no work by the dealer. Seriously, when was the last time Ford (not FPV/Tickford/etc) made a car this desirable?

[DFB FGXR6]

[QUOTE=stevefreestyle;5204188]As has been previously stated, XR8s from the AUII 220 have always been limited production ie limited (hand made) production engines in the same way the current 335 is builtQUOTE]

The 335 would be significantly more expensive because of the added componentry (DOHC heads, 32 valves, VCT, that whopping supercharger) compared to the simple OHV Windsor.

[stevefreestyle]

[QUOTE=DFB FGXR6;5204350]

Originally Posted by stevefreestyle

As has been previously stated, XR8s from the AUII 220 have always been limited production ie limited (hand made) production engines in the same way the current 335 is builtQUOTE]

The 335 would be significantly more expensive because of the added componentry (DOHC heads, 32 valves, VCT, that whopping supercharger) compared to the simple OHV Windsor.

The 335 does NOT have full VCT (which is standard on the 5.0 Coyote on which it is based) and BA/BF XR8 5.4 ALSO had Alloy DOHC. 32 Valve Heads - with a bespoke Trumpet/Ram-Tube Inlet Manifold in a bespoke Plenum. And the "whapping supercharger" is only a baby 1.9 Ltr - with no air or water cooled intercooler

[Bossxr8]

Your kidding yourself if you think HWP will use XR8's. Price alone will kill that idea right off the bat.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Your kidding yourself if you think HWP will use XR8's. Price alone will kill that idea right off the bat.

National fleet discount and no GST, no luxury car tax either so it might not be too far over the fence for them.

[DFB FGXR6]

Put it this way, do the Police use SSV or SSV Redlines for their duties? No they use base spec SS.

FGX XR8 will be SSV Redline price, a premium model with supply constraints that will sell fine all by itself without what some are calling endorsement from the same people who will sting you with a fine for doing 2kph over the limit. Do Ford want that sort of advertising?

[responsef6]

Guys who want an xr8

From what ive heard id place your order now, numbers being built are so limited, you may miss out. I'm hearing an average allocation of 1 per dealer per month.

Future Demand is being ignored, supply of parts for 8s is being predetermined and will not be changed if demand grows. Don't hate on me if you disagree, I dont profess to know and i could be wrong. my source is in the know and I'm only writing this to help fence sitters who may hold out for a LE version or a later build. Would hate fellow forum members to miss out

[Bobman]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Your kidding yourself if you think HWP will use XR8's. Price alone will kill that idea right off the bat.

Why do/did they use F6 models then in NSW & QLD?

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Bobman

Why do/did they use F6 models then in NSW & QLD?

They were/are some sort of specialised hoon squad as far as I know, most of them unmarked. I always thought they were a waste, XR6Ts with Brembos (in NSW) are essentially the same thing. I remember one time in Kings Cross, they lined 4 F6s up at an RMS inspection station, then when they left each of them got sideways pulling out and belted up the road. Pretty ironic.

[xr8territory]

I doubt whether there would be any 'bargaining' or discounts on price for any XR8's , even to corporate buyers. Sure there will be some haggling on the other models but the XR8's will all sell at full RRP. Order now or miss out would be my guess.

[XR Martin]

They'll be built to order too I imagine.

[apolloxbgt]

Someone mentioned a few pages back that zf still list the high torque 6 speed, could this be (heaven forbid) good marketing by ford?

Spread the rumour that there are limited numbers of parts (or simply dont deny anything) and let the hype build.