V6 Holdens are BAD! - Page 3

dave289 · 21-07-2008, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG66ME

A lot of the sales probaly has to do with company fleet buyers. My company has switched to GM world wide. Used to be Ford. Some bloke in the UK got a good deal with Vauxhall, now its company policy and our CEO gets a "please explain" if we get a non GM car. I saw it coming years ago and had Ford XR written in my contract. They tryed it on, tryed to force my into a red machine. I told HR I owned 9 Ford Cars (excluding the wifes Fairmont Ghia and my company BA XR), 8 Ford trucks and 3 Ford tractors, I dont do GM, its a lifestyle thing. They where not happy when I told them I would take legal action if they broke my contract. FG XR ute is now on order. Guess the MD is sending the please explain this week.

I am sure a lot of people dont get that choice.

Well done ,never settle for second best.

Windsor220 · 21-07-2008, 11:13 PM

The SV6 with the higher powered V6 isnt too bad performance wise. The main thing I hate with commodores as others have said is the cheap, bunky feel and crap ride. The interior of the VZ looks and feels very old. Controls feel Hyundai spec.

JG66ME · 21-07-2008, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

sorry just fishing

No mate, all 50s, 60s and 70s trucks. Biggest is the good old 380 CID Ford Dover with Ford 8 speed splitter, 13ton gross Ford D series with 22 foot beaver tail, takes my tractors to shows. Most have the 330 CID diesel six with 5 speed and 2 speed Eaton no 3s. Its just a hobby.

samftr · 21-07-2008, 11:16 PM

probably true burnz LOL. well I say with out holden there would be no ford. competition is a grand thing.
hence ford buying ajax fasteners out when they were going down the gurgler to keep holden manufacturing.
shared interior lights on the older commo/falc cars such as vn/ea - ba the interior light is the same LOL. both have gm/ford on it.

like brothers they are but they have to compete in order to survive.
one has strengths on its side and the other has its strengths and weaknesses.

Us as the consumer chooses their vehicle on merit based upon fact and some fiction some loyalty and experience with the cars in general.
trust me if my ford experience had been any worse with my ea there would have been no other susbsequent purchases of any other blue oval product LOL
just lucky I guess that I have had a VK pussbox and a VS electronics nightmare lol

burnz · 21-07-2008, 11:19 PM

i'v had three ford truck's well my old man. (ret)
LNT 9000 one 903 the other 6V92TA
LTL 9000 NTC400

burnz · 21-07-2008, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samftr

probably true burnz LOL. well I say with out holden there would be no ford. competition is a grand thing.
hence ford buying ajax fasteners out when they were going down the gurgler to keep holden manufacturing.
shared interior lights on the older commo/falc cars such as vn/ea - ba the interior light is the same LOL. both have gm/ford on it.

like brothers they are but they have to compete in order to survive.
one has strengths on its side and the other has its strengths and weaknesses.

Us as the consumer chooses their vehicle on merit based upon fact and some fiction some loyalty and experience with the cars in general.
trust me if my ford experience had been any worse with my ea there would have been no other susbsequent purchases of any other blue oval product LOL
just lucky I guess that I have had a VK pussbox and a VS electronics nightmare lol

i stoped buying ford during the XF crisis i owned one manual five speed with dexII oil after 3 boxes put an XD one in no more problem,untill the clutch cable pulled threw the firewall.
but hay never had a problem with ford before that cortina's, mustang's, zepher's, xp ute.

JG66ME · 21-07-2008, 11:27 PM

At the end of the day, the Commodore is not that bad. I just dont do GM, end of. There are worse cars in the world.

What I realy find strange is Holden dropping the Vectra. When I travel to the UK I hire a Mondeo or Vectra. Just had the latest Vectra in April. Not a bad car. Last week I copped one of those Korean things, name escapes me, oh yes, Epica, when working near Tamworth. Deary me. What where they thinking?

burnz · 21-07-2008, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG66ME

At the end of the day, the Commodore is not that bad. I just dont do GM, end of. There are worse cars in the world.

What I realy find strange is Holden dropping the Vectra. When I travel to the UK I hire a Mondeo or Vectra. Just had the latest Vectra in April. Not a bad car. Last week I copped one of those Korean things, name escapes me, oh yes, Epica, when working near Tamworth. Deary me. What where they thinking?

yeah i think the vectra is pricing it self out of the market, hence the cheap korean crap epica.
i wouldent mind a drive of a v6 vectra just to see how it goes (power to weight)

ltd · 22-07-2008, 12:54 AM

No offence to anyone here, but LSTerritoryghia is hardly someone I would accuse of bashing the other brand; often he has defended them and this is the first time I've read something negative about Holden from him, I think I would take his opinion on board before callling him biased.

greenfoam · 22-07-2008, 01:15 AM

It's not any revelation that the BA/F go better then the VY/Z

everyone knows that, are they built better and will they last longer is another story. The AU is better than the VT/X too as far as driving goes but I'll promise you that almost all the AU's will be gone to rust heaven before hardly any VT/X rusts. Still, I wouldn't by a Commodore in the VT-VZ range over a Falcon.

Before the AU the Commodores had the Falcon well beat for around 20 years and I think that's where Holden gained in brand loyalty and resale, most of those Falcons are an all around embarrassment and is why when you say the word Falcon most people still think, rusty, broken door handles and blown head gaskets

5.0 ED · 22-07-2008, 02:43 AM

but still the v6 is useless - yet they say holdens go better, its false advertising imo.

vztrt · 22-07-2008, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

heated mirror's an option on base model.
VX onward speed sensing wipers standard.

We have a VXII exec at home only has the three crappy wiper settings, not the speed sensing like the BA's did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

VT/BA with irs simply handle better and launches better than live axel.

Seriously the VT-VX's exec's are twitchy, I wouldn't rate that IRS very highly.

Anyway

Last year I got to drive a VZ exec, now inside was ok nothing special. Driving the car nice and easy the car did it's job. For someone who drives from A-B the car will do the job for them (as long as it doesn't give the owner hassles). But as soon as I pushed it a little more (and this isn't to the limit) you could feel the car struggle. Comapred to the XT's that I have drivin to get the car to struggle you have to push it to quite close to it's limit.

Now if I was to get the car for free fully paid (as this car was a low k company vehicle) I would take it and use it as a daily. But for me to hand over my own money I would look elsewhere.

As for the VE I seriously looked at a VE SS. The price was good and thought it would be a nice step up (I wanted a V8 lol). I was at the motorshow and I went to have a look at the SS and as soon as I sat inside I couldn't handle the poor quality of the interior (apparently the Calais is much better, could someone clarify this) and that made me not bother with the Commodores anymore.

Darkr · 22-07-2008, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5.0whiteaughia

but still the v6 is useless - yet they say holdens go better, its false advertising imo.

Isn't that the idea?

It doesn't go better, if they say it does, those who don't know any better will believe it!

The Yeti · 22-07-2008, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V3RSAC3

I love the VZ, my missus has one, and they are WONDERFULL cars to drive! although I do agree that they aren't very powerful and the steering is very heavy (compared to my AU), although I just love driving it, I don't know why but i think it's AWSOME ...

:

I'd consider buying a VZ over a BF if i was to update anytime soon, but thats just my personal oppinion

I'm with you weve got a VZ cop pack and it is truck loads better than my BA fairmont ever was and in terms of repairs the only money Ive spent (Aside form PM servicing) is the front brake rotors needed machining but would go under size so they were replaced that in 2 years and 40000k's I'm happy

desGT · 22-07-2008, 06:35 AM

I am the (original) owner of a VZ "S" (supercharged), with over 210,000k on the clock and no major $'s spent on the car. I have no plans to replace it. Perhaps the s/c and the suspension on this model are enough to make the car good (for me). I think Australia are just so lucky! My first Holden, possibly the last. Always had Ford and Porsche.

Wally · 22-07-2008, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP290

I drove a VE SSV on the weekend, I was considering trading my two cars in on it and use it as a daily. HOLDENS DO NOT GO BETTER, the 6.0 litre which I expected to have loads more down load torque than my 4 speed BOSS motor was slower down low and had to be pushed hard for the gearbox to kick down and rev its tits off, It felt like a four speed box behind it, brakes were solid and just felt marginal for the weight of the car which pulled up with no urgency. ...............

The box does not kick back like a 4 speed, because it's a six speed and you probably didn't engage the go fast switch on the console. Of course you could have kicked down yourself by using the sequential shift.

As someone already stated, you need to get used to a car, not the brand. The VZ has an entirely different feel to the VE. My 5.7 would snap the neck with foot planted, my 6.0 doesn't, but insidiously it does get up to speed faster. And from my perspective the Falcon I test drove didn't have a superior finish and didn't have anywhere near the pull of the 6.0, if that's what is important when buying a car.

El Sucio I didn't like the VE six package either, but then I haven't had a Holden six since my VL Turbo. I did have a Yamaha "Duratech" six in the Taurus and if it had 170kW as marketed, then the 5.0 Holden 8 had 300kW by comparison. So come 2010 you may find the Falcon feels very much like an Alloytech.

apolloxbgt · 22-07-2008, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by desGT

I am the (original) owner of a VZ "S" (supercharged), with over 210,000k on the clock and no major $'s spent on the car. I have no plans to replace it. Perhaps the s/c and the suspension on this model are enough to make the car good (for me). I think Australia are just so lucky! My first Holden, possibly the last. Always had Ford and Porsche.

Supercharged VZ??Is it aftermarket 'cos holden stopped putting superchargers on with the vy.

**DJM83** · 22-07-2008, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apolloxbgt

Supercharged VZ??Is it aftermarket 'cos holden stopped putting superchargers on with the vy.

Beat me to the

: If its a VZ it has the 3.6L and is an SV6.

tapeworm · 22-07-2008, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSTerritoryGhia

Wasnt meant to insult E series, just saying that Holdens Techonlogy feels 10 years older then ours.. As for the Junk bucket part, thats Directed at the horrible motor!

Ease up turbo!!!!!!!!

I have a 95 EF Mont, the old man has a VX, drivetrain wise my car is very much superior to drive, no joke. Don't get me started on the Commo 4 speed, what a shocker this thing is.

RG · 22-07-2008, 10:33 AM

Swordsman88 · 22-07-2008, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSTerritoryGhia

Yeh well, this car felt like an EF... No joke and I have driven plenty of E series cars to compare it to.. It was a junk bucket....

As an owner of a good ol EF Gli (with some light mods...) i can 100% confirm this. Mate of mine used to work for the university fleet here in brisvegas....they have all commies, VT-VE, with all the wagons/utes VY-VZ. We used to take them for a spin when he had them at his place. I can honestly say that there was no reall improvement between these two models for holden (yes, that is despite the 'so called' HF GM V6). In fact in some ways i prefer the old buick engine, rough as guts, but it seemed to work better with the old 4 speed and actually have more torque down low (though nowhere near a Falcon I6).

And boy is that 4 speed rubbish...worst auto box EVER. Including all the old autos i have used in X series included, that is the worst auto known to man...unrefined, dimwitted, harsh, noisy etc. Makes the engines look worse then they are. The Alloytec needs to be revved to hell to do anything, and the box bangs home every change, often the wrong one, followed by another kickdown, then a last minute upchange. I've driven probably 5-6 different commodored VT-VE and they all do it.

I said to my mate that i wouldn't put the VY on par with an AU let alone a B series, and that in many respects it was like my EF. He told me to get off it, surely it ain't that bad. It is. Simple things like door locking actuator sounds, engine noise, even handling. For an IRS set up that is one lump of you know what...my watts link is better in most respects.....The cars we drove were understeering pigs when pushed too.....the soft as rear end is the only thing that saved it in terms of power down, but with a load in the wagons as a result it was on its bum.....Utes were even worse.

You can make a case for V8 VEs, but other than that you will struggle to find a decent commodore drivetrain in the modern era. Their 6 pot drivetrain, is as LS noted, literally a decade out of date. The fact they still have that 4 speed, designed for GM trucks in the 80s, is a disgrace.

: I don't want to come off as a one eyed Holden basher, but in this area LS is totally correct. Holden+V6+4sp = CRAP. No matter what they put it in!

da_ilks · 22-07-2008, 12:16 PM

Who would have thought a thread against V6 Commodores would be so popular on here? Maybe I'll go do an anti-Falcon thread on Street Commo's and see how that goes?

For mine I wouldn't jump into a V6 Commodore (V8 all the way) but then I'd be unlikely to jump into a NA 4L in a Falcon either. The Ford 6 has always been a better engine - it's a pity Ford's marketing is so woeful...

Smoke Pursuit · 22-07-2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

As an owner of a good ol EF Gli (with some light mods...) i can 100% confirm this. Mate of mine used to work for the university fleet here in brisvegas....they have all commies, VT-VE, with all the wagons/utes VY-VZ. We used to take them for a spin when he had them at his place. I can honestly say that there was no reall improvement between these two models for holden (yes, that is despite the 'so called' HF GM V6). In fact in some ways i prefer the old buick engine, rough as guts, but it seemed to work better with the old 4 speed and actually have more torque down low (though nowhere near a Falcon I6).

And boy is that 4 speed rubbish...worst auto box EVER. Including all the old autos i have used in X series included, that is the worst auto known to man...unrefined, dimwitted, harsh, noisy etc. Makes the engines look worse then they are. The Alloytec needs to be revved to hell to do anything, and the box bangs home every change, often the wrong one, followed by another kickdown, then a last minute upchange. I've driven probably 5-6 different commodored VT-VE and they all do it.

I said to my mate that i wouldn't put the VY on par with an AU let alone a B series, and that in many respects it was like my EF. He told me to get off it, surely it ain't that bad. It is. Simple things like door locking actuator sounds, engine noise, even handling. For an IRS set up that is one lump of you know what...my watts link is better in most respects.....The cars we drove were understeering pigs when pushed too.....the soft as rear end is the only thing that saved it in terms of power down, but with a load in the wagons as a result it was on its bum.....Utes were even worse.

You can make a case for V8 VEs, but other than that you will struggle to find a decent commodore drivetrain in the modern era. Their 6 pot drivetrain, is as LS noted, literally a decade out of date. The fact they still have that 4 speed, designed for GM trucks in the 80s, is a disgrace.

: I don't want to come off as a one eyed Holden basher, but in this area LS is totally correct. Holden+V6+4sp = CRAP. No matter what they put it in!

And i wasnt trying to belittle the E series cars either, infact I think they are a better car, if i had the choice between our old EL Ghia and what i drove yesturday, id take the EL Ghia any day!!!!!!! Not bad for a car thats 10 years older!

mcnews · 22-07-2008, 12:19 PM

I can't for the life of me how anyone could drive a car with that engine in it and possibly want to take it home. It made me feel like burning it to put it out of its misery. The NVH and crudeness of the engine is just diabolical.

V3RSAC3 · 22-07-2008, 01:09 PM

Just curious, as i know we talkin bout the V6 here, but does anybody know how the VZ 6L Calais' drive? are they lighter on steering? ... as my old man's looking at updating from his BA too one ...

Smoke Pursuit · 22-07-2008, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V3RSAC3

Just curious, as i know we talkin bout the V6 here, but does anybody know how the VZ 6L Calais' drive? are they lighter on steering? ... as my old man's looking at updating from his BA too one ...

6 Litre is miles ahead, but the steering etc would be the same i would think..

Im sure the VZ Calais with the 190 kw V6 is a better package, but in saying that the 190 kw BFII Fairmont Ghia is a better package then the BFII XT.. So its all relative..

V3RSAC3 · 22-07-2008, 01:19 PM

Cheers, we're stumped though on what to go, would probably test drive the V6, V8 and also see what the BF GHIA has to offer, but he's commented that he likes the looks of the VZ, and thought, like the falcon range that the higher you go with the model the lighter they get on steering?

but i know nothing about this VZ range really, n didnt know there was a 190kw V6 package? dammit, im screwed haha

Swordsman88 · 22-07-2008, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSTerritoryGhia

And i wasnt trying to belittle the E series cars either, infact I think they are a better car, if i had the choice between our old EL Ghia and what i drove yesturday, id take the EL Ghia any day!!!!!!! Not bad for a car thats 10 years older!

I understand what you are saying LS....the EF/EL weren't too bad for back in the day. Hindsight shows that while they sure aren't a modern car, they get the job done very well and you can keep em running on pittance these days (fuel aside...).

I'm sure the commies have some advantages over an EF (being 10 years newer helps too) but that drivetrain is just so infuriating i wouldn't even consider buying one. It dumbfounds me Holden fans, some of them relatively impartial/logical foke, still think a VE Alloytec with 4 speed in an omega is good. Look at Honda Accord, Toyo Aurion, Nissan Maxima, Falcon etc. ALL these cars totally destroy a VE Omega for drivetrain perforamance, refinement, fuel burn, even sound (that alloytec sounds sick, has since VZ).

Holden fans talk about 'caddilac' DI HFV6 coming soon, like it is their saviour. Well it better, because they will need just to be competitive with what is out in the market now. They havent a clue....

Jock260 · 22-07-2008, 02:23 PM

Thats why you dont buy a Holden V6.... You buy the V8.

da_ilks · 22-07-2008, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V3RSAC3

Just curious, as i know we talkin bout the V6 here, but does anybody know how the VZ 6L Calais' drive? are they lighter on steering? ... as my old man's looking at updating from his BA too one ...

I'm not sure if Holden still do the variable power steering (they used too on Calais/Statesman), which is what reduces the load on the wheel at low speeds. Check out the specs at Redbook.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

Holden fans talk about 'caddilac' DI HFV6 coming soon, like it is their saviour. Well it better, because they will need just to be competitive with what is out in the market now. They havent a clue....

Even with an inferior drivetrain Commodores routinely outsell the Falcon, so the uncompetitive product can't be all that bad. If Holden needs the new engine to be their 'saviour' then what chance does Ford have with the Falcon?

That's a far more worrying concern....