And who said it wasnt revenue raising.....

[Bobman]

What about all the other deaths? Suicide alone outdoes the road toll (shouldn't they put higher barriers on the West Gate bridge?), health related deaths (ie the ones directly related to frequent intake of maccas or lack of exercise is also higher than road fatalities).

Also, as fmc was mentioning the lack of budget. I'd like to know why Vic Pol have a surplus of vehicles which, well, really never do anything. Go past St Kilda and Moonee Ponds police stations at any time on any day and there will always be at least half a dozen police cars just sitting on the street. They mainly use the divisional vans and one sedan but the other cars just sit there. Waste of tax payers money? I think so.

I'm all for marked police cars. In Victoria there was a push for every unmarked vehicle to be marked, which was opposed mainly by TMU members. There are a few semi-marked police cars around, which I think are a good idea as it's a balance between the two.

P plates and entrapping people into racing is just asking for trouble. It goes against real policing.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by Bobman

What about all the other deaths? Suicide alone outdoes the road toll (shouldn't they put higher barriers on the West Gate bridge?), health related deaths (ie the ones directly related to frequent intake of maccas or lack of exercise is also higher than road fatalities).

Ridiculous. What are the numbers of jumpers on West Gate Bridge?

The intake of Maccas kills the consumer, not the guy in Subway eating a <8 grams of fat roll. The circumstances are so different the comparison is laughable. If by eating a Big Mac there was a sudden explosion and beheading, you can bet they would be shut down.

Originally Posted by Bobman

Also, as fmc was mentioning the lack of budget. I'd like to know why Vic Pol have a surplus of vehicles which, well, really never do anything. Go past St Kilda and Moonee Ponds police stations at any time on any day and there will always be at least half a dozen police cars just sitting on the street. They mainly use the divisional vans and one sedan but the other cars just sit there. Waste of tax payers money? I think so.

Some of those will be D cars, these will be the ones waiting for reports of other crimes to attend. Investigating existing crimes, interviewing criminals, you know, the other work Police do, like Homocide, Armed Robbery, organised crime etc. Just because its a Police station does not mean they are everyday, out on the beat coppers.

What you call a surplus, is more likely a misinterpretation of what you observe.

Originally Posted by Bobman

P plates and entrapping people into racing is just asking for trouble. It goes against real policing.

Stings fit well within proper and intelligent Police work.

Entrapment result from Police making a person do something they wouldnt ordinarily do. If the presence of a P plate or the type of vehicle goads a driver into racing, that is not entrapment. Not that entrapment is applicable in Aus anyway.

All this does, is distinguish clearly the hoon from the youth with a nice ride. Im surprised all you law abiding P platers who are victims of harassment are complaining.

[DivHunter]

Originally Posted by fmc351

Ridiculous. What are the numbers of jumpers on West Gate Bridge?

The intake of Maccas kills the consumer, not the guy in Subway eating a <8 grams of fat roll. The circumstances are so different the comparison is laughable. If by eating a Big Mac there was a sudden explosion and beheading, you can bet they would be shut down.



Some of those will be D cars, these will be the ones waiting for reports of other crimes to attend. Investigating existing crimes, interviewing criminals, you know, the other work Police do, like Homocide, Armed Robbery, organised crime etc. Just because its a Police station does not mean they are everyday, out on the beat coppers.

What you call a surplus, is more likely a misinterpretation of what you observe.


Stings fit well within proper and intelligent Police work.

Entrapment result from Police making a person do something they wouldnt ordinarily do. If the presence of a P plate or the type of vehicle goads a driver into racing, that is not entrapment. Not that entrapment is applicable in Aus anyway.

All this does, is distinguish clearly the hoon from the youth with a nice ride. Im surprised all you law abiding P platers who are victims of harassment are complaining.

All along you make it sound like fines make a difference, next you'll be spouting the virtues of speed cameras.

[merlin]

Originally Posted by fmc351

Ridiculous. What are the numbers of jumpers on West Gate Bridge?

.

Not really - he is actually right. Suicide alone claims more lives than the annual road toll. The road toll is miniscule in the big scheme of things (less than 1% of all deaths in Australia). Obesity, diabeties, smoking, suicide ect. all should be getting far more attention.

I have to laugh at their sneaky attempts to fool people though. These undercover cars stand out like dogs balls - who are they fooling exactly? There is a bright blue Typhoon in my area I was following in the WRX the other day. It had 3 aerials across the back, small red and blues on the parcel shelf and a laptop on the front seat. Tried to bait me a few times, I just hung back and followed him doing the limit. Sure enough after following him for 10 minutes he put the lights on, did a u-turn and drove off on some other call.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

All along you make it sound like fines make a difference, next you'll be spouting the virtues of speed cameras.

They do make a difference. People who get pinged for speeding often slow down for longer. Only an idiot wouldnt.

It is clear, people only slow down while in the sight of a police car, then speed up/pick up phone/go back to whatever illegal act once past it. The effects of fines are longer lasting.

You might say it wont bother you or your mates/whoever, I can point to a post in here by a young fella who says the opposite.

Originally Posted by merlin

Not really - he is actually right. Suicide alone claims more lives than the annual road toll. The road toll is miniscule in the big scheme of things (less than 1% of all deaths in Australia). Obesity, diabeties, smoking, suicide ect. all should be getting far more attention.

The government is acting on smoking, short of infringing your rights to smoke. The product is around, it is addictive and had the permission of governments previous, you will see over time, a total ban on tobacco.

Obesity gets attention, how do you stop it if lardos want to excessively eat cr4p? Ban Maccas? Fine, what about flour/butter etc that mum uses to make cakes? The same flour and butter necessary for other less fattening dishes. Obesity leads to diabetes. How do you plan to cure diabetes? Get serious. There could be a cure for all illnesses on Pluto, does that mean we should focus all efforts on getting to Pluto to find out? Of course not.

On suicide he is wrong, the numbers might be high, but how do you stop it? You cant put barriers up on every method of topping yourself. Its just unfeasible, and even if it were achieved, theyd just go back to jumping in front of trains/trucks. Theres no way to prevent someone from offing themselves if they are hellbent on doing so. Mental illness is just to difficult to cure, that does not mean Dr's arent trying to manage/cure what they can. Same here, the problem wont go away, the Police wont cure the problem, but they are trying what they can to manage it and making better use of the limited budget to get more results. Try thinking, even if they poured all this money into marked cars, you wont notice the extra presence on the road, it probably wont be 200 cars, now spread that across a state.

If I pour a litre of oil in your sink youll notice it. If I pour the litre of oil in the ocean, you wont notice it unless youre at the spot I drop it in. If you believe oil is everywhere/could be everywhere, youll think about it when looking at clean ocean. Its a mind trick, with potential for real results.

The only reason people dont like this is because they now run the risk of getting caught. Good.

[Laminge]

The only reason people dont like this is because they now run the risk of getting caught. Good.

An excellent point

[FTE72]

Originally Posted by fmc351

The only reason people dont like this is because they now run the risk of getting caught. Good.

I agree with you on this point and it is a good one too make, however I guess the basic point may be that the hype in the media about "hoon" drivers has this sort of action from the police rather than more RBT vehicles or driver reviver rest stops on the highway.
Drink/drug driving, and tired drivers are a greater percentage of the road toll.

[XA-Coupe]

Suicide isn't an easy to solve subject. It's not something that can really be dealt with at the click of a finger. We have certain rights ( not legislated though ) that would be fiercely damaged if anyone tried to do something about suicide as the way to deal with it is to counsel people or take them into custody for their own safety.
Counseling will only work if the person wants help, taking people into custody gets into a whole grey area. When should you take them into custody ?? When someone threatens ?? for how long ?? Where do you lock them up?? Whilst Section 10 of the Mental Health Act deals with powers in relation to suicide or self harm, it's not something that can be dealt with by punishment, nor should it be.
Suicide is the result of a mental illness ( depression or something else ), in other words, a health issue not a punishment/policing issue. Relating a willful murder or bad / culpable driving to suicide is just totally irrelevant.

[DivHunter]

Originally Posted by fmc351

They do make a difference.

If that were true why do they need undercover cars? Why has increased fines not made a significant dent in the road toll?

[XA-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

If that were true why do they need undercover cars? Why has increased fines not made a significant dent in the road toll?

Undercover cars are but one tool the police use. Most TMUs will have 5 + marked cars and 1 or 2 unmarked. Don't drive like a knob and you are safe, drive like a knob and get caught, take it on the chin, works for me.

[DivHunter]

Originally Posted by fmc351

The only reason people dont like this is because they now run the risk of getting caught. Good.

I'll believe it when I see more than one person voluntarily slow down to the posted limit in road works.

[DivHunter]

Originally Posted by XA-Coupe

Undercover cars are but one tool the police use. Most TMUs will have 5 + marked cars and 1 or 2 unmarked. Don't drive like a knob and you are safe, drive like a knob and get caught, take it on the chin, works for me.

Cop what on the chin? I've had one fine ever for failure to indicate

[XA-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

Cop what on the chin? I've had one fine ever for failure to indicate

That was a figure of speech ... look it up

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by FTE72

I agree with you on this point and it is a good one too make, however I guess the basic point may be that the hype in the media about "hoon" drivers has this sort of action from the police rather than more RBT vehicles or driver reviver rest stops on the highway.
Drink/drug driving, and tired drivers are a greater percentage of the road toll.

Cant argue with that. There should be a lot more RBT's, a lot more. These things should really put the fear of god into drivers, there really should not simply be the the feeling of anywhere anytime, it should be damn likely will be.

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

If that were true why do they need undercover cars? Why has increased fines not made a significant dent in the road toll?

There are more cars on the road each year, yet the toll does not climb proportionately. Technology between 1960 and today has an impact, but technology between last year and this one do not have such a significant impact. Something does.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

I'll believe it when I see more than one person voluntarily slow down to the posted limit in road works.

And place speed cameras at these locations, and they will.


Some roadworks have those signs that tell a drive what their speed is, if a few of those had cameras in them, then the rest would effectively have the same result.

[DivHunter]

Originally Posted by fmc351

And place speed cameras at these locations, and they will.


Some roadworks have those signs that tell a drive what their speed is, if a few of those had cameras in them, then the rest would effectively have the same result.

But there are all these undercover cars and mobile speed cameras already (Vic), you sound like the state govt. 'More cameras please!'. Because more cameras will solve all our problems :

I've yet to see piles of burning cars in these large areas where 99.98% of drivers are speeding, because we all know how death defying a few Ks over is, or in the case I am refering to usually 20+.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

But there are all these undercover cars and mobile speed cameras already (Vic), you sound like the state govt. 'More cameras please!'. Because more cameras will solve all our problems :

I've yet to see piles of burning cars in these large areas where 99.98% of drivers are speeding, because we all know how death defying a few Ks over is, or in the case I am refering to usually 20+.

Speed doesnt kill, its not the monster its made out to be, is that your argument hidden in there? Only an idiot believes that, hit a pole at 15km/h, youll likely be fine. Do it at 100 and what? Drive at 15 and how much time do you have to react to something immediately in front of you, how long does it take to stop? Now try it at 100, you dont have the same time to react and stopping takes longer. Obviously speed is an important fact. Oh and before someone waffles, Im not suggesting driving at 15.

Point, the difference between doing 25 and 100 is not 4 times. Theres an additional effect so clearly every K over is a factor in the right, or wrong, circumstances.

What youre really saying is drivers can keep doing 110 in roadworks, because speed doesnt kill? We could buzz schools at 100 in 60 zones, maybe do away with speed limits and let every driver decide for themselves based on their needs alone. A speed camera on Footscray Rd isnt going to help on Warrigal Rd is it? I would think that roadworks and schools are the best place for speed cameras. Certainly it couldnt be revenue raising then, it truly has the safety aspect covered. See, you clearly dont understand your own revenue raising argument, its just a sound-bite you dont understand.

[kervs]

Alrighty, just spent 15 minutes reading this thread. It's not unusual that 75% of it consisted of assumptions, guesses, generalisations and other tripe that amounts to a good old fashioned 'cop bashing'.

May I soil the thread with a few facts?

Firstly, I only speak for New South Wales where my knowledge lies. Those that live in Victoria may for all I know be correct in the stories they tell.

1. In reply to the original post. The new unmarked HWP cars the story relates to mainly refers to 20 Typhoon's purchased for Traffic services. That's right, only 20. You can count on one hand how many WRX's were purchased, and out of those, the majority are used by the Middle Eastern task force. Most aren't even fitted with RADAR. The 20 Typhoon's are attached to Traffic Services, and are deployed to different areas over Sydney as they are needed, not to one specific area.

2. Displaying 'P' plates when you are on a silver or gold licence is NOT an offence in NSW, wether you are police or not. Why you would wan't to if you are not on your P's is beyond me, but each to their own.

3. A bit of trivia. The WRX displayed in that photograph is NOT a police vehicle.

4. In general response to a few reply's in this thread. The Highway Patrol make up a small percentage of a variety of units that make up the NSW Police Force. Their sole charter is to enforce traffic laws. That's it. Not investigate assaults, not to catch murderers and not to arrest the guy that broke in to your mother-in-laws friends house last month. For that reason, they have a lot of time to do their job, which is write tickets out to those that break traffic laws. It's that simple.

5. Perhaps more importantly, a large percentage of NSW police officers ARE NOT in the highway patrol. They DO catch guys like the one who broke into your mother-in-law friends house and murderers. They don't write tickets out for 5km/h over on the highway. They are busy doing other things which may also mean their car stays parked in the carpark for perhaps an entire shift.

There will be many people who have legitimate reasons to criticise the highway patrol or other areas of the police for a variety of reasons. There will be others who are completely ignorant of what the police do, are doing or have done but criticise them anyway as its fashionable or it makes them feel better after they have just committed an offence and have been penalised for it. Please don't fall into the second category. This forum is full of cops. Generally this kind of thread is ignored. Why not ask questions about what you don't know, rather than make up your own answers.

Rant over.

[Fev]

Middle eastern as in the racial side or do you mean around sydney?

[kervs]

The "racial side".

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by kervs

Alrighty, just spent 15 minutes reading this thread. It's not unusual that 75% of it consisted of assumptions, guesses, generalisations and other tripe that amounts to a good old fashioned 'cop bashing'.

May I soil the thread with a few facts?

Firstly, I only speak for New South Wales where my knowledge lies. Those that live in Victoria may for all I know be correct in the stories they tell.

1. In reply to the original post. The new unmarked HWP cars the story relates to mainly refers to 20 Typhoon's purchased for Traffic services. That's right, only 20. You can count on one hand how many WRX's were purchased, and out of those, the majority are used by the Middle Eastern task force. Most aren't even fitted with RADAR. The 20 Typhoon's are attached to Traffic Services, and are deployed to different areas over Sydney as they are needed, not to one specific area.

2. Displaying 'P' plates when you are on a silver or gold licence is NOT an offence in NSW, wether you are police or not. Why you would wan't to if you are not on your P's is beyond me, but each to their own.

3. A bit of trivia. The WRX displayed in that photograph is NOT a police vehicle.

4. In general response to a few reply's in this thread. The Highway Patrol make up a small percentage of a variety of units that make up the NSW Police Force. Their sole charter is to enforce traffic laws. That's it. Not investigate assaults, not to catch murderers and not to arrest the guy that broke in to your mother-in-laws friends house last month. For that reason, they have a lot of time to do their job, which is write tickets out to those that break traffic laws. It's that simple.

5. Perhaps more importantly, a large percentage of NSW police officers ARE NOT in the highway patrol. They DO catch guys like the one who broke into your mother-in-law friends house and murderers. They don't write tickets out for 5km/h over on the highway. They are busy doing other things which may also mean their car stays parked in the carpark for perhaps an entire shift.

There will be many people who have legitimate reasons to criticise the highway patrol or other areas of the police for a variety of reasons. There will be others who are completely ignorant of what the police do, are doing or have done but criticise them anyway as its fashionable or it makes them feel better after they have just committed an offence and have been penalised for it. Please don't fall into the second category. This forum is full of cops. Generally this kind of thread is ignored. Why not ask questions about what you don't know, rather than make up your own answers.

Rant over.

Ok I have the following questions:

What is the ratio of highway patrol to regular police?

Has the number of Highway Patrols and funding for highway patrol increased??

This is my main gripe. That to me it appears to be a HUGE emphasis on highway patrol and not on other divisions.

This is the gripe because i, friends and family because have been broken into, robbed, beaten up, raped and often within a block from the local police station.

Am I wrong in speculating that some snobs in upper class suburbia have had a few kids do burnouts near their house so are yelling and screaming that this is the biggest travesty since Paul Keating put his arm around the queen. Am I wrong in speculating that media are pouring petrol on to the flames? Am I wrong in speculating that the cowardly Government is being led by the media?

[kervs]

1. Don't know, but probably around 1/4.

2. Yes.

3. Yes, you're probably right. If the media hyped on about break and enters the way they do about P platers, then things would be different.

[DivHunter]

Originally Posted by fmc351

Speed doesnt kill, its not the monster its made out to be, is that your argument hidden in there? Only an idiot believes that, hit a pole at 15km/h, youll likely be fine. Do it at 100 and what? Drive at 15 and how much time do you have to react to something immediately in front of you, how long does it take to stop? Now try it at 100, you dont have the same time to react and stopping takes longer. Obviously speed is an important fact. Oh and before someone waffles, Im not suggesting driving at 15.

Point, the difference between doing 25 and 100 is not 4 times. Theres an additional effect so clearly every K over is a factor in the right, or wrong, circumstances.

What youre really saying is drivers can keep doing 110 in roadworks, because speed doesnt kill? We could buzz schools at 100 in 60 zones, maybe do away with speed limits and let every driver decide for themselves based on their needs alone. A speed camera on Footscray Rd isnt going to help on Warrigal Rd is it? I would think that roadworks and schools are the best place for speed cameras. Certainly it couldnt be revenue raising then, it truly has the safety aspect covered. See, you clearly dont understand your own revenue raising argument, its just a sound-bite you dont understand.

Clearly you use different logic for your own posts than those of others.

Where did I say speed wasn't a factor when driving?
Where did I say 110 in roadworks or even specify what type of roadworks?

I would think that roadworks and schools are the best place for speed cameras. Certainly it couldnt be revenue raising then, it truly has the safety aspect covered.

However this is NOT the case.

But no, don't worry everyone just stay under the speed limit and you'll be fine, nothing can hurt you under the speed limit. So watch that speedo like a hawk.

[Bobman]

While very slightly OT, may I ask why in Victoria, the camera state. The road toll is currently around the same, if not worse, than at the same time last year and why the road toll has been around the same figure consecutively over the last few years, in fact I'd say it has got much worse with the introduction of more cameras and a lower tolerance.

Perhaps fmc can assist.

Also, for those who say "Don't speed and you'll be fine", what about this:

Speed camera readings can be distorted by metal signs, fences, walls and even Australia Post letter boxes, according to a secret police document.

http://www.policespeedcameras.info/news_vic2.html

www.roadwatch.com.au

[DivHunter]

Originally Posted by Bobman

While very slightly OT, may I ask why in Victoria, the camera state. The road toll is currently around the same, if not worse, than at the same time last year and why the road toll has been around the same figure consecutively over the last few years, in fact I'd say it has got much worse with the introduction of more cameras and a lower tolerance.

Perhaps fmc can assist.

Also, for those who say "Don't speed and you'll be fine", what about this:



http://www.policespeedcameras.info/news_vic2.html

www.roadwatch.com.au

See that's where you're wrong, obviously any drop is directly attributable to the amount of money the govt has made from fines and that any increase is obviously caused by a lack of cash flow and requires more speed traps.

I wonder how many of the undercover cars have 2k/h incriments and perfectly accurate speedos? Remember the WRXs and all those fines and points they had to give back.

[Agent86]

on wednesday night i saw a volkswagen transporter undercover van.

You cant tell me that marked units arent a better idea. most tradies are quick drivers anyway.
We had a ford ute with a load of sand in it and a plank on the racks that was a camera car ( before privatisation ). all a load of crap.

Increase visible presence and people will think twice.
Some will never care, but most will pay that little more attention.

Being a truckie that covers a little over 100,000klms around melbourne every year, i see an alarminly small amount of marked cars.
i once called to request police addend an incident, ,to which they replied, we only have one car and its busy at a road crash.......

one car to cover an area (greensborough) of this size is lunacy.
i dont care whos fault it is, i just want it fixed. i want the old issues fixed PROPERLY and the knee jerk legislation removed.

what a pitty i live in reality where morons rule and common sence is uncommon.

[LTDHO]

Wow those 3 pages took me ages to read.

Simple facts are that 'speed camaras' make revenue only.
They do not prevent road deaths.
Although expensive, more 'blue and whites' would certainly help.
Another fact is there are a lot more to road fatality than speed. Yet these are not addressed.

We (forums members) need to accept this and move on. Christine can sleep at night knowing of the income generated by the cameras as some poor bloke does 5k's over.

[gz1]

without getting into any arguments re speeding, I find the following quote particularly disturbing and it confirms that it is all about revenue raising:

http://www.policespeedcameras.info/news_vic2.html
Under Heading: Faulty cameras give drivers $15m refund
The Government is forecasting a 15 per cent jump in fines and regulatory fees, to $727 million, in 2005-06. The increase is attributed to lower than expected revenue from traffic infringements in 2004-05 because of the faulty speed cameras.

An increase in the number of speed cameras in 2005-06 will also lift revenue.

Opposition transport spokesman Terry Mulder said speed camera revenue would be used to boost the budget.

"Police Minister Tim Holding, in his budget, has to find $50 million for a new computer system to replace the LEAP database system," he said.

[big fella]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

At last.

Some who has NEVER broken any laws anywhere

I don't think that was the ascertion. I've been booked twice for speeding, both times under 10 km over the limit, but both times well aware that I was speeding. Just a case of put my hand up for doing the wrong thing, and take it on the chin, rather than blaming the system for raising revenue.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

Clearly you use different logic for your own posts than those of others.

Where did I say speed wasn't a factor when driving?

Ummm, when you said something about the few K's over, and especially 20km over.

If it is a factor why rant on and on about the focus on speed? Its clear from most in here, they feel they can speed safely, while acknowledging other drivers cant, I mean of course, you can drive better than most. They want a loophole to allow them to speed that little bit.

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

Where did I say 110 in roadworks or even specify what type of roadworks?
However this is NOT the case.

Why do I need you to specify. Plenty of roadworks do occur in 110 zones. You complained about my comment of roadworks being a good place for a camera.

At least try mate.

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

But no, don't worry everyone just stay under the speed limit and you'll be fine, nothing can hurt you under the speed limit.

Not nothing, but less things will hurt you. Your chances of survival, and chances of being killed by some other tool are greatly reduced. What are you looking for, a perfect solution? Theres no such thing.

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

So watch that speedo like a hawk.

Does that describe you? Watching the speedo like a hawk? If so, hand your licence in, you are clearly incapable of driving if that describes you. I face the same conditions as everyone else, and have no problem keeping my speed down, and avoiding accidents.