all modified car owners.......tell me what u think

[fos408]

Now you see why you would not be bother trying to have a body to be the voice against the Hoon image .Just look at the diverse range of opinions which go completely off the subject and cover all the other bits of rules and how this or some other crash occurred and you would become aware that what ever mouth piece you propose would soon become a nightmare and do you need that .Just go and enjoy the restricted freedom you now have to drive your modified car and leave all that stress to some other martar.

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

Note:
a) Australian Road Rules. The 'national harmonisation' of road rules* in serious effort, was kicked off by Keating back in 1993, with the first edition ARR's contracted by the states December 1, 1999. Also required owing our ongoing contract with the UN Convention on Road Traffic.

b) Development of the Graduated Licensing Systems by the states and territories, each with very familiar 'likeness and requirement' as that derived from NSW, and is now developing nationally by actions undertaken in Canberra December 15, 2004 at the "The National Driver Training Scheme" launch.

* Speed-limit maximums remain a matter for each state and territory, though some academics like to attempt restriction of this. Speed signage used, must of course, be uniform.

so national harmonisation of road rules has been on the adgenda since 1993? thats 15 years now...

with respect to speed maximums, i notice them going down more then up everywhere, including highways. guess it is cheaper to lower the speed limit then to widen all national highways (and yes i know about auslink and how much they spend but im yet to see double lane highways between adelaide and melbourne/ sydney melbourne etc)

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by fos408

Now you see why you would not be bother trying to have a body to be the voice against the Hoon image .Just look at the diverse range of opinions which go completely off the subject and cover all the other bits of rules and how this or some other crash occurred and you would become aware that what ever mouth piece you propose would soon become a nightmare and do you need that .Just go and enjoy the restricted freedom you now have to drive your modified car and leave all that stress to some other martar.

the problem here fos, is that bit by bit they are taking even that little bit of "restricted freedom" away . i understand the need for anyone who does this that we should know every rule inside out before we go any further. but would u rather be told "young p-plater in hi performance car crashes into tree" when the truth is "drunk driver in dads SS loses control crashing into tree"?

[ArTeesT]

They are simply just choosing the easiest option, but enforcing something like driver training is just as easy and chances are the governement would make people pay for the course anyway.

In all seriousness what should be higher on the priority list, being able to reverse parallel park or being able to control your vehical when $&%# goes down hill.

Also as for the log books and stuff they brought in thats suposed to give people more experience. I dont know 1 person who has'nt faked at least half of the hours on there.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ArTeesT

In all seriousness what should be higher on the priority list, being able to reverse parallel park or being able to control your vehical when $&%# goes down hill.

Being intelligent/mature enough to avoid driving in a manner that would need you to be able "to control your vehical when $&%# goes down hill."

[ArTeesT]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Being intelligent/mature enough to avoid driving in a manner that would need you to be able "to control your vehical when $&%# goes down hill."

Its not all about driving like a hoon, Lets say im driving around my place at night in the sticks and a roo jumps out. Most people would swerve hit the side and roll there car, if you knew what to do like go straight through and try slow down as much as possible things will end up alot better.

Driving in the city and someone makes a mistake or falls asleep or is drink an comes straight for you, a bit of defensive training is definantly going to help you in that situation.

I know prevention is better than a cure but there's more than 1 way to get in trouble on the road and theres a good chance it might not be your fault.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ArTeesT

Its not all about driving like a hoon, Lets say im driving around my place at night in the sticks and a roo jumps out. Most people would swerve hit the side and roll there car, if you knew what to do like go straight through and try slow down as much as possible things will end up alot better.

Driving in the city and someone makes a mistake or falls asleep or is drink an comes straight for you, a bit of defensive training is definantly going to help you in that situation.

I know prevention is better than a cure but there's more than 1 way to get in trouble on the road and theres a good chance it might not be your fault.

Here's my take on defensive driver training courses.. they're fun, and enlightening, but unless you regularly practice the skills you've learn't they mean very little when you're faced with a "reflex" situation and have a millisecond to react...
Its a bit like doing 1 karate lesson and calling yourself trained in self defense... its takes ages for a trained skill to become instinctive on reaction.
Im not saying they're not a good idea, but don't over estimate what the real long term benefits are.
This is why the "defensive driver training" angle is flawed in my opinion, because 99% of the time you won't remember what you learnt, and the vast majority of these situations occur because you got yourself into trouble in the first place by doing something stupid.

Prevention in my eyes is adjusting drivers behavior and attitude on the roads, cure is hospital....

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Here's my take on defensive driver training courses.. they're fun, and enlightening, but unless you regularly practice the skills you've learn't they mean very little when you're faced with a "reflex" situation and have a millisecond to react...
Its a bit like doing 1 karate lesson and calling yourself trained in self defense... its takes ages for a trained skill to become instinctive on reaction.
Im not saying they're not a good idea, but don't over estimate what the real long term benefits are.
This is why the "defensive driver training" angle is flawed in my opinion, because 99% of the time you won't remember what you learnt, and the vast majority of these situations occur because you got yourself into trouble in the first place by doing something stupid.

Prevention in my eyes is adjusting drivers behavior and attitude, cure is hospital....

then maybe a 3 day long course with 1 day refreshers every 6 months?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ltd_on20s

then maybe a 3 day long course with 1 day refreshers every 6 months?

Then every P Plater will bleet about the costs of doing it...

You're still missing the point...... IF YOU (and everyone else) DRIVES SAFELY YOU DON'T NEED ABOVE AVERAGE DEFENSIVE SKILLS.

[ArTeesT]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Then every P Plater will bleet about the costs of doing it...

You're still missing the point...... IF YOU (and everyone else) DRIVES SAFELY YOU DON'T NEED ABOVE AVERAGE DEFENSIVE SKILLS.

I think you are missing the point here too. Everyone driving safely is NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

No matter what you say or do or how many restrictions or whatever, there is always going to be accidents (because they didnt mean for it to happen). No one person is perfect and your living in a different world if you think (even if everyones motive was to drive safely) there would be no accidents.

[IAM58L]

ltd on20s,
Getting back to your first post and not getting side tracked with all the P plate dribble that has gone on, Yes I do think that its about time us "hoons" got together and were represented as a combined group, WE NEED A VOICE and to hold protest cruises to get the message accross similar to the truck drivers go slow protests.

It is clear that anyone with a modified car is being targeted and its about time we stood up to the law makers as a group and said enough is enough. Rules like crushing cars is stupidity and a waste rather than crush them couln't they be auctioned for charity? Although in my opinion these rules should apply to other offenses eg drink driving and other vehicular offences aswell as hooning.

It appears that the government is making it harder and harder for modified cars to be on the road through various rules and regulations but are not providing alternative rego like they do for hotrods.

[SM1DY]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

You're still missing the point...... IF YOU (and everyone else) DRIVES SAFELY YOU DON'T NEED ABOVE AVERAGE DEFENSIVE SKILLS.

Have you ever done a defensive driving course??? I did one when I was 16 at the Holden (don't shoot) performance driving centre at Yatala. The empysis isn't on being a Grade 1 V8 Supercar driver on local roads and keeping the car straight when something goes wrong. It's about observation, techniques and "DEFENSIVE" driving. They try to enforce safe and clinical driving, not condone the use of excess speed, it's about how to handle yourself in an emergency.

It's the best step that any driver could take, and it should be a part of the licesencing structure in all states.

[SNB05T]

Originally Posted by IAM58L

ltd on20s,
Getting back to your first post and not getting side tracked with all the P plate dribble that has gone on, Yes I do think that its about time us "hoons" got together and were represented as a combined group, WE NEED A VOICE and to hold protest cruises to get the message accross similar to the truck drivers go slow protests.

It is clear that anyone with a modified car is being targeted and its about time we stood up to the law makers as a group and said enough is enough. Rules like crushing cars is stupidity and a waste rather than crush them couln't they be auctioned for charity? Although in my opinion these rules should apply to other offenses eg drink driving and other vehicular offences aswell as hooning.

It appears that the government is making it harder and harder for modified cars to be on the road through various rules and regulations but are not providing alternative rego like they do for hotrods.

that is exactly what i was thinking too.
I drive a modified xr8 in sydney, some people give me weird looks and gestures(even though im doing the speed limit or stopped at lights), that doesn't bother me. what bothers me is when genuine emthusiasts are painted with the same brush that the idiots are given.

I did a defensive driver course when i was on my p's (15 years ago), i think they are a great thing if taught properly and you keep the skills fresh.

there should be compulsory driver testing for ALL drivers not just p platers and older people every 2 years.

if there was an honest politician that is a car enthusiast and is genuine in helping us (i know that would be a rare find) then we could have a voice.

the govt are only interested in what money they can make out of us, excise on premuim unleaded (what most of us need to run our cars on), GST on parts that we buy for our cars and revenue from so called community safety awareness projects (ie fines).

The govt SHOULD be doing more to help places such as WSID, Wakefield and heathcote by giving us somewhere to safely let off steam.

unfortunately, the old saying is you can lead a horse to water....

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by SM1DY

Have you ever done a defensive driving course??? I did one when I was 16 at the Holden (don't shoot) performance driving centre at Yatala. The empysis isn't on being a Grade 1 V8 Supercar driver on local roads and keeping the car straight when something goes wrong. It's about observation, techniques and "DEFENSIVE" driving. They try to enforce safe and clinical driving, not condone the use of excess speed, it's about how to handle yourself in an emergency.

It's the best step that any driver could take, and it should be a part of the licesencing structure in all states.

Ive done 6 actually, in an old job it was compulsory to do them every 12 months to maintain your company vehicle. Even large companies acknowledge the need to refresh and remind their staff regularly..
I also did one with Mercedes after buying a vehicle from them.
Yes the course has absolutely nothing to do with race driving or "apexing" or anything like that. (Ive done a CAMS licence test too).
I'll still maintain there's no way you'll retain virtually any of what they teach you after only one session.... You might remember what they tell you but it i doubt it would become "reflex" in an emergency... I do agree they're a good idea though, just not the "silver bullet" some think it is..

[ltd_on20s]

i understand where ur coming from 4vman. well what are your opinions then on what we should do? im not thinking small dude, but we need to find a way to wriggle ourselfs into these gabfests that pollies and lobby groups have so we can maybe sway some of their thinking. we might start it in SA(im in adelaide) but im thinking big and encompassing all forms of modified street car across australia...

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ltd_on20s

i understand where ur coming from 4vman. well what are your opinions then on what we should do? im not thinking small dude, but we need to find a way to wriggle ourselfs into these gabfests that pollies and lobby groups have so we can maybe sway some of their thinking. we might start it in SA(im in adelaide) but im thinking big and encompassing all forms of modified street car across australia...

The best way to combat these laws is stop your peers from mucking up and drawing unnecessary attention to car enthusiasts and "minority" groups like P Platers...
Stop the problem first and the authorities won't feel the need to "restrict" people.. Going in for a whinge won't get you far at all.

[Auslandau]

I really dont see any whinging? Valid points are being made and a serious question asked above, seeing you have shot down all suggestions with no alternative? You have made 1/2 dozen replies just saying BS to everything being suggested. These laws would not be stopped if P platers in modified cars behaved ...... as the law has been passed that they are not allowed to have them? Lately its been twits in little cars throwing themselves against poles.

I see exactly what is being asked .... I dont have an answer, as it would be very hard to say the definitive fix that would keep the modified scene happy and those that enjoy the PC or it would already ahve been done.

Its the finger pointing thats happening towards ALL modified car owners, ALL V8 owners and ALL turbo owners ...... simular to the problems a while back with the finger pointing to 4WD's, bullbars etc. Arent rego fees is some states based on engine capacity? V8's are evil, Pirus is good.......



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[4Vman]

Originally Posted by auslandau

I really dont see any whinging? Valid points are being made and a serious question asked above, seeing you have shot down all suggestions with no alternative? You have made 1/2 dozen replies just saying BS to everything being suggested. These laws would not be stopped if P platers in modified cars behaved ...... as the law has been passed that they are not allowed to have them? Lately its been twits in little cars throwing themselves against poles.

I see exactly what is being asked .... I dont have an answer, as it would be very hard to say the definitive fix that would keep the modified scene happy and those that enjoy the PC or it would already ahve been done.

Its the finger pointing thats happening towards ALL modified car owners, ALL V8 owners and ALL turbo owners ...... simular to the problems a while back with the finger pointing to 4WD's, bullbars etc. Arent rego fees is some states based on engine capacity? V8's are evil, Pirus is good.......

Im not suggesting anyone is whinging, what i am suggesting is just whinging to the authorities will be a waste of time while they can throw evidence back in our faces to shoot us down...
I honestly dont fell like "theyre out to get us V8 drivers".. ive never been picked on or frowned upon out in the GT, police and most people admire it.
The only ideas ive "shot down" are those i think ignore the issues...

I think a bit of paranoia has crept into our lives...
They're not targeting people who enjoy their performance vehicles in a responsible manner.

I think Nick summed it up well earlier on:

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

The article concentrates on P plate drivers not modified car owners as a whole.

Why do P platers see these issues as a personal attack, it's only for a few years whilst still learning not a lifetime.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im not suggesting anyone is whinging, what i am suggesting is just whinging to the authorities will be a waste of time while they can throw evidence back in our faces to shoot us down...
.

Yep ..... understand that bit now. Read thinking you were pointing at ltd_on20s.

I would say though that the small minority whinging by the Srubey type groups do get noticed ...... thats the question being asked, if a voice for the dark side is possible.

Most proberly is being paranoia ...... I do not get hassled by the authorities and a 5 minute drive to the servo can sometimes take a while with chats along the way from people I have never met. BUT it is there though and I can see the momentum towards more rules and regulations governing those that have high HP, modified or uses more fuel than a victor.

I think Nick summed it up well earlier on:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe
The article concentrates on P plate drivers not modified car owners as a whole.

Why do P platers see these issues as a personal attack, it's only for a few years whilst still learning not a lifetime.

Yes the article is predominatley towards restrictions to P platers, which I wholy agree, and has more holes in it than swiss cheese, BUT it is the heading and as I sid somewhere, its the flow on. YEP proberly paranoid and reading too much into these things but am concerned how it will effect the situation later on.



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[ltd_on20s]

i was using that article as a response tool. i wanted people to read the opinions that other people had put up. this isnt just about p-platers. this is about trying to change the overall perception of people like us have. look i was a p plater with a VL v8 one time. got pulled over once. that was it. but when constantly see us being portrayed in the media as people hellbent on streetdrags at every possible oppourtunity, u have to wonder what sort of hidden adgena the media and pollies have. and no im not saying they are in cahoots on this...

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ltd_on20s

i was using that article as a response tool. i wanted people to read the opinions that other people had put up. this isnt just about p-platers. this is about trying to change the overall perception of people like us have. look i was a p plater with a VL v8 one time. got pulled over once. that was it. but when constantly see us being portrayed in the media as people hellbent on streetdrags at every possible oppourtunity, u have to wonder what sort of hidden adgena the media and pollies have. and no im not saying they are in cahoots on this...

See i dont feel like that at all, ive never felt "pidgeon holed" or picked on because i drive a hot loud V8... evryone loves my GT, never heard a bad word from anyone, old or young.
But when i see a kid in a VL with black interceptor rims on the back going sideways turning right on a main intersection i think TOOL..... This "stereotype" is the one's they're targeting....

[manxman]

quad riders & 4WD's-who often rip up the access roads (with their doughnuts) and turn everything into corrugations and irrepairable dust bowls.

You criticize me for this comment.
Sorry, but that is what I see every time I go out riding near these people-that is what they do. The dust bowl is also real. A low rainfall area, with very light undergrowth and pine trees. Disturb the ground and nothing grows back for years. This is my experience! I cannot ignore it and say it doesn't happen.
The mentality of some of these people is appallingly low, if their off road driving is a guide. It's a bit like being critical of the natives, because all we see are the trouble makers, and all we hear about are the same, so we consider ourselves justified in generalizing-because that is the extent of our experiences in that area.

I think quads have their place, but I also think that many of their users are foolish and selfish. They delight in ripping up access roads, making entry to the recreation areas difficult and more dangerous. Their SWB machines are often driven at hi speeds on poor surfaces near other people, whilst sliding around , almost out of control, and I dread the day even one tumbles forward under brakes etc. at speed. The hi COG is dangerous, and they just don't appear 2B safe vehicles, especially to have such hi BHP in.

[Auslandau]

Yeah was a bit critical as its also another on going argument .... 4WD's vs Bikes. Was involved in the 4WD scene for years and its the bias from bike riders towards 4WD's and vise versa. Each thinking hte other is the problem. You and I might be good expamples of off road etiquette but the amount of times I have nearly had bikes through the bull bar .... even when I have or others have been stationary. Seen it happy a coupke of times but never with me. Just some hell of a few frights

Bit off topic and appologies but wanted to clarify ...... it all goes towards the fact that many share the roads. Bikes, cars ..... modified or not and there has to be a happy medium between everyone ...... not tjust the loud voice of push bike riders and the pedestrian council.



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[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by auslandau

Bit off topic and appologies but wanted to clarify ...... it all goes towards the fact that many share the roads. Bikes, cars ..... modified or not and there has to be a happy medium between everyone ...... not tjust the loud voice of push bike riders and the pedestrian council.

exactly. thats where i was aiming really with this. i pretty much ride everyday to work on a pushie. and the rreason they get a say in is because ther other groups are organised. we are not.

[Saraco]

Getting away from the hoon talk, what is needed in Australia is a body like SAN (SEMA ACTION NETWORK), SEMA is the specialty equipment manufacturers association. In the US and more recently Canada SAN have watchdogs in Washington DC, as well as various state governments, to protect the rights of modified car enthusiasts and prevent draconian bills being legislated into law. This from a country where in some states you can drive your 1000 hp street car YES!!! STREET CAR!!!! on public roads with impunity. Don't believe me!! Check out HOT ROD DRAG WEEK! The yanks, god bless 'em stick up for their rights. When are we going to stand up for them here!!!! SAN IS NEEDED IN OZ!!!

[Spudz27]

Originally Posted by ltd_on20s

Loving some of the responses here. should driver training be incorperated into getting your license? skidpan?night driving? evasive action training? is it worth us having a voice?

All that does is make them think "hey I am ****ing awesome at car control" so they go out and kill themselves/others. They need to be sat down and taught safe driving practices and see the impact/consequences that occur from not driving safely. Make them watch a video on how a car with certain safety stars holds up in a crash and then tell them to check their cars rating.

Oh I am biased as my driver training was taught this way. No skids, no evasive manouvers. Just how to be a safe driver and the consequences of not, also how to spot danger and avoid it etc etc. We did a bit of driving but again it was safety over control. In the end we should NEVEr be in a situation where we lose control and so why do we need to train for it?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by EDfutura25

All that does is make them think "hey I am ****ing awesome at car control" so they go out and kill themselves/others. They need to be sat down and taught safe driving practices and see the impact/consequences that occur from not driving safely. Make them watch a video on how a car with certain safety stars holds up in a crash and then tell them to check their cars rating.

We had the police come to our school to address us on driving safely, only 75 out of the 200 people in the year level showed up, then the police just talked about how speed cameras save lives and how effective the new P plate laws are.

Show us some graphic images from crashes, show funerals, show "the knock". You need to scare the crap out of people.

[Spudz27]

Originally Posted by XCPWSF

We had the police come to our school to address us on driving safely, only 75 out of the 200 people in the year level showed up, then the police just talked about how speed cameras save lives and how effective the new P plate laws are.

Show us some graphic images from crashes, show funerals, show "the knock". You need to scare the crap out of people.

That is crap but, I am talking a proper company. Also why I said the car safety rating. Nothing like watching a VK commodore crumple like an accordian as it hits a wall at 60kp/h.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by EDfutura25

That is crap but, I am talking a proper company.

I know its crap, but you're not going to get much better. Its about making money, not "saving lives". The answer to all questions is money.

[MO]

Originally Posted by EDfutura25

All that does is make them think "hey I am ****ing awesome at car control" so they go out and kill themselves/others. They need to be sat down and taught safe driving practices and see the impact/consequences that occur from not driving safely. Make them watch a video on how a car with certain safety stars holds up in a crash and then tell them to check their cars rating.

Oh I am biased as my driver training was taught this way. No skids, no evasive manouvers. Just how to be a safe driver and the consequences of not, also how to spot danger and avoid it etc etc. We did a bit of driving but again it was safety over control. In the end we should NEVEr be in a situation where we lose control and so why do we need to train for it?

That is crap,first sentence,first para. You must combine all aspects of driver training. So all you were taught to do was steer a car not drive it.